What is faith?

[H. Richard]

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2 NKJV
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. ---

Two important things to think about:

1. What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.” If I listen to her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””

2. What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.

If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law.
Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all of mankind are sinners.

 

[junobet]

Well, if I had such a generous friend I should hope that his generosity towards me would inspire me to be generous towards others. If another friend then asked me for my bike, I wouldn’t be able to say no without feeling bad. If I did refuse to give my bike to this other friend, I would assume that my generous friend would be rather disappointed with my own lack of generosity. And if I truly love my generous friend, I would not want to disappoint him, no matter whether he’d then want his car back or not. Instead I would be so grateful that I’d want to make my generous friend as happy and pleased with me as possible.

Comp. Mt. 18:21-35
​

 

[H. Richard]

Well, if I had such a generous friend I should hope that his generosity towards me would inspire me to be generous towards others. If another friend then asked me for my bike, I wouldn’t be able to say no without feeling bad. If I did refuse to give my bike to this other friend, I would assume that my generous friend would be rather disappointed with my own lack of generosity. And if I truly love my generous friend, I would not want to disappoint him, no matter whether he’d then want his car back or not. Instead I would be so grateful that I’d want to make my generous friend as happy and pleased with me as possible.

Comp. Mt. 18:21-35
​

So it's all about you isn't it?

If you don't want to disappoint Jesus then trust in His work on the cross.

One thing stands out about our discussion is that I am the only one talking about faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. Why is that?

 

[junobet]

So it's all about you isn't it?

[SIZE=11pt]Why would you think that?[/SIZE]​

If you don't want to disappoint Jesus then trust in His work on the cross.

One thing stands out about our discussion is that I am the only one talking about faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. Why is that?
​

[SIZE=medium]Actually pretty much everybody in this forum confesses their faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But you seem to be the only one who claims that having faith in Christ doesn’t have any life-changing effects whatsoever. Why is that?[/SIZE]
​

 

[mjrhealth]

[SIZE=medium]Actually pretty much everybody in this forum confesses their faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But you seem to be the only one who claims that having faith in Christ doesn’t have any life-changing effects whatsoever. Why is that?[/SIZE]

confessing is one thing having it is another

 

[H. Richard]

Why would you think that?​


[SIZE=medium]Actually pretty much everybody in this forum confesses their faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But you seem to be the only one who claims that having faith in Christ doesn’t have any life-changing effects whatsoever. Why is that?[/SIZE]
​

As I see it that is not true. Most are on here preaching that we must stop sinning by our efforts to not sin. They add that if a person is a Christian they will not sin. They do this and all the while they are sinning too but they do not see their sins.

I don't brag and claim I am sinless because I have been changed. I am faulted for not bragging.

Most teach the law in one way or another and never mention that faith in Jesus' work on the cross is all that is required. They are big on works but not on grace.

As for life changing effects I see the change as wanting to teach salvation by God's grace so that others will be saved. I don't see it as putting a burden on the children of God; those that God calls clean because they place their faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

My eyes have been opened and I can see that the religious teach they have been changed and they are the very ones that will condemn the true children of God because of their liberty in Christ Jesus.

No one on this forum is sinless. But some are quick to say that since I teach liberty and freedom from the condemnation of sin I must want to sin all over the place. They say they are Christians and yet they fault me for truly placing my belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. -- I don't see many teaching faith in what Jesus did on the cross. What I see is many that are self-righteous because they claim they have been changed. It is all about them with little, if any, about Jesus' shed blood that paid for mankind's salvation. Salvation is the work of God, not man.

 

[FHII]

Why would you think that?​


Actually pretty much everybody in this forum confesses their faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But you seem to be the only one who claims that having faith in Christ doesn’t have any life-changing effects whatsoever. Why is that?
​

Well, in truth H Richard is wrong in saying that he's the only one putting his faith in the works of Jesus on the cross. I've been doing it for years on this forum! I haven't participated much in the debates cause i haven't seen anything new that would change my stance.

I also believe that grace though faith does bring a life changing event. But its not in the sinful flesh, but the inward man! Its not seen in fleshly actions. It does not mean you stop sinning, it means you are no longer under the law of sin and death. It no longer applies.

There are some rules under the new covenant. Live God and love the brethren.

Funny thing is many are trying to keep the law of moses (the 10 commandments and the rest) that they can't keep those two!

So, i stand by H's side!

 

[FHII]

No one on this forum is sinless. But some are quick to say that since I teach liberty and freedom from the condemnation of sin I must want to sin all over the the place.

Yea, and that's a sore spot with me. So H Richard... Are you? Are you telling anyone to actually go out and sin? I am not. Neither did Paul. He did preach a moral code but it had nothing to do with the power of grace.

He preached all things are lawful, but don't be controlled by them.

 

[H. Richard]

Yea, and that's a sore spot with me. So H Richard... Are you? Are you telling anyone to actually go out and sin? I am not. Neither did Paul. He did preach a moral code but it had nothing to do with the power of grace.

He preached all things are lawful, but don't be controlled by them.

I have never said that a child of God WANTS to go out and sin. That idea is what others want to foster about me. But it is obvious that everyone still sins in the flesh.

I have mentioned Romans 7 many times It explains the constant struggle between the spirit and the flesh.

I don't tell people to go out and sin. Nor do I tell them they must refrain from sinning. I think that is between them and God. But I certainly tell them that Jesus' shed His blood on the cross to pay for all their sins of the flesh. They are paid for on the cross.

I posted a tragic story of a young man trying to place his faith in God's work on the cross. His Christian friends shut the door to heaven by their claiming that God will make him not sin any longer. They built up and expectation that did not happen. They should have told him about Romans 7..

I am not interest in carrying on a conversation about me. My judge is sitting at the right hand of God the Father.

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

 

[FHII]

Alright then! H Richard, understand my motive for asking. Its simply because those that don't believe in the power of God's grace tend to accuse folks like you and me of saying its ok to sin. That's not the case.

I don't encourage anyone to sin. I just tell folks that under grace, all sins of the flesh are forgiven. Yet kbuckleheads don't seem to get that.

 

[junobet]

Well, in truth H Richard is wrong in saying that he's the only one putting his faith in the works of Jesus on the cross. I've been doing it for years on this forum! I haven't participated much in the debates cause i haven't seen anything new that would change my stance.

I also believe that grace though faith does bring a life changing event. But its not in the sinful flesh, but the inward man! Its not seen in fleshly actions. It does not mean you stop sinning, it means you are no longer under the law of sin and death. It no longer applies.

There are some rules under the new covenant. Live God and love the brethren.

Funny thing is many are trying to keep the law of moses (the 10 commandments and the rest) that they can't keep those two!

So, i stand by H's side!

[SIZE=14pt]I certainly agree that we are justified by God’s grace alone and not by our works, however admirable they may be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But it seems to me that H.Richard does not only fail to see the difference between ceremonial and moral law when trying to make sense of the NT, he also fails to see the full scale of grace:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Because of His grace God gives us faith by which we are filled by the Spirit, which installs in us the desire and the ability to do God’s will in imitation of Christ. None of our good works are our own doing, but Christ’s: we owe them to grace (1 Cor. 15:10). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Whenever we sin – which all of us frequently do, even Paul himself admitted he wasn’t perfect yet (Phil. 3:12) – we obey the flesh rather than the Spirit. This shows a lack of faith in us. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But not only did Christ die for the forgiveness of our sins, he keeps reaching out to us, leading us to repentance and forgiveness over and over again and strengthening our faith so that we may keep on walking on the road that leads to the perfection He demands (Mt 5:48). And I trust that by His grace eventually we will be perfected in love (1 John 4: 18-20) so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28). [/SIZE]

 

[mjrhealth]

[SIZE=14pt]leading us to repentance and forgiveness over and over again a[/SIZE]

Now if one was to repent of all his sins everday, there would not be enough hrs in the day. Repentance is not asking forgiveness, it is to change ones mind. When one is in Christ one already hads had ones mind changed, we now serve to do good, doesnt stop us from getting it wrong, If we where perfect as He is, we wouldnt need Him anymore. Glad I need Him gives me Hope where there is no hope.

 

[H. Richard]

[SIZE=14pt]I certainly agree that we are justified by God’s grace alone and not by our works, however admirable they may be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But it seems to me that H.Richard does not only fail to see the difference between ceremonial and moral law when trying to make sense of the NT, he also fails to see the full scale of grace:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Because of His grace God gives us faith by which we are filled by the Spirit, which installs in us the desire and the ability to do God’s will in imitation of Christ. None of our good works are our own doing, but Christ’s: we owe them to grace (1 Cor. 15:10). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Whenever we sin – which all of us frequently do, even Paul himself admitted he wasn’t perfect yet (Phil. 3:12) – we obey the flesh rather than the Spirit. This shows a lack of faith in us. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But not only did Christ die for the forgiveness of our sins, he keeps reaching out to us, leading us to repentance and forgiveness over and over again and strengthening our faith so that we may keep on walking on the road that leads to the perfection He demands (Mt 5:48). And I trust that by His grace eventually we will be perfected in love (1 John 4: 18-20) so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28). [/SIZE]

You said; "[SIZE=14pt]But it seems to me that H.Richard does not only fail to see the difference between ceremonial and moral law when trying to make sense of the NT, he also fails to see the full scale of grace:[/SIZE]"

So you accuse me, personally, of not understanding grace. Is that how you elevate yourself over others?

Your adding works in religion to grace shows who understands grace the most. Under grace it is God that has accomplished all that is necessary for a person's salvation on the cross. A person has to believe and trust in that fact. For a person to add personal works shows what that person believes in; a blend of grace and works.

 

[junobet]

You said; "[SIZE=14pt]But it seems to me that H.Richard does not only fail to see the difference between ceremonial and moral law when trying to make sense of the NT, he also fails to see the full scale of grace:[/SIZE]"

So you accuse me, personally, of not understanding grace. Is that how you elevate yourself over others?

Your adding works in religion to grace shows who understands grace the most. Under grace it is God that has accomplished all that is necessary for a person's salvation on the cross. A person has to believe and trust in that fact. For a person to add personal works shows what that person believes in; a blend of grace and works.

I’m sorry you got the impression that I was trying elevate myself over you, when all I was trying to do was to live up to the brotherly spirit expressed in Col. 3:16.

When you say that I am adding works to grace this shows that you utterly misunderstood what I was trying to say. Maybe you’ll find it easier to understand when expressed in the words of the most prominent proponent of "Sola Gratia" and "Sola Fide", Martin Luther, who was at the same time very opposed to antinomianism. Here’s from his “Preface to the Letter of St. Paul to the Romans”:

“(…) Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, "Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven." The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, "I believe." This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.
Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn't ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.
Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. Through faith, a person will do good to everyone without coercion, willingly and happily; he will serve everyone, suffer everything for the love and praise of God, who has shown him such grace. It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate. (…)”

You’ll find the entire text here: http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/romans/pref_romans.html

​Another text that you may find helpful is Luther's "On the Freedom of a Christian": http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/luther-freedomchristian.asp

 

[Wormwood]

““Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”” (Matthew 18:23–35, ESV)

So was Jesus a legalist who didnt understand grace? I dont think so...

If someone's life isnt changed by grace, then they are wicked and will be judged. Faith produces good fruit. If it doesnt then it is worthless.

PS, Hebrews 11 goes on to list the gracious and sacrificial actions that displayed their faith... Notice, it doesnt say, "By faith Abraham made a good confession and then sat on his hands. By faith Moses' parents trusted God but then handed Moses over by fear of the king's edict...." No, their faith was displayed by their actions. This is not a difficult concept. Faith and good works are not antithetical to one another. A person is not saved by what they do, but neither is faith void of action and repentance. The Bible commends faith that leads a person to transformed living. If faith does not change a person's acts, then it is not the faith of Abraham.

Faith + Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Faith - Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Good works - Faith = Salvation (NO!)
Faith -> Good works = Salvation (YES)

 

[justaname]

Faith=Salvation=Good Works

Salvation as it is presented by Paul...(biblically)
We are saved upon belief. We are being saved as we are sanctified. We will be saved at the resurrection.

If we do not progress through sanctification our faith was false or in vain. Good works are the outward proof of the inward faith we posses in and through our sanctification. Only in and through sanctification can we be assured we have run the race until the finish. Only in continued faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ will we participate in sanctification and our eventual salvation.

 

[H. Richard]

Faith=Salvation=Good Works

Salvation as it is presented by Paul...(biblically)
We are saved upon belief. We are being saved as we are sanctified. We will be saved at the resurrection.

If we do not progress through sanctification our faith was false or in vain. Good works are the outward proof of the inward faith we posses in and through our sanctification. Only in and through sanctification can we be assured we have run the race until the finish. Only in continued faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ will we participate in sanctification and our eventual salvation.

I do not believe in progressive salvation.

1 Cor 6:10-12
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you """were""" washed, but you """were""" sanctified, but you """were""" justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

the word "were" is past tense meaning it has already been done. All thought you may not be able to see it you are preaching man's works for final salvation.

 

[H. Richard]

““Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”” (Matthew 18:23–35, ESV)

So was Jesus a legalist who didnt understand grace? I dont think so...

If someone's life isnt changed by grace, then they are wicked and will be judged. Faith produces good fruit. If it doesnt then it is worthless.

PS, Hebrews 11 goes on to list the gracious and sacrificial actions that displayed their faith... Notice, it doesnt say, "By faith Abraham made a good confession and then sat on his hands. By faith Moses' parents trusted God but then handed Moses over by fear of the king's edict...." No, their faith was displayed by their actions. This is not a difficult concept. Faith and good works are not antithetical to one another. A person is not saved by what they do, but neither is faith void of action and repentance. The Bible commends faith that leads a person to transformed living. If faith does not change a person's acts, then it is not the faith of Abraham.

Faith + Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Faith - Good works = Salvation (NO!)
Good works - Faith = Salvation (NO!)
Faith -> Good works = Salvation (YES)

You posted "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”” (Matthew 18:23–35, ESV)

As I have said, many times, Jesus was teaching the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. The children of God in this age are under grace.

 

[Wormwood]

So let me get this straight...

The teaching of Jesus does not apply to us..
The teaching of Peter does not apply to us...
The teaching of James does not apply to us...
The teaching in Hebrews does not apply to us...
The first four books of the NT were written to Jews...
The teaching of John does not apply to us...

Richard, I am concerned for you. This is some horrendous heresy.

For your information...the teaching of Jesus that was passed on through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was passed on post resurrection. The entire focus of the teaching and preaching of the Gospels was revealing the new work of God in Christ. Jesus was not focused on teaching Jews under the Law. Jesus was teaching the coming Kingdom of God (which is referenced over 50x in the book of Matthew) and specifically contrasts the characteristics of the Kingdom and its citizens with the laws and traditions of the Pharisees. Your twisting of Scripture is baffling.

 

[H. Richard]

So let me get this straight...

The teaching of Jesus does not apply to us..
The teaching of Peter does not apply to us...
The teaching of James does not apply to us...
The teaching in Hebrews does not apply to us...
The first four books of the NT were written to Jews...
The teaching of John does not apply to us...

Richard, I am concerned for you. This is some horrendous heresy.

For your information...the teaching of Jesus that was passed on through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was passed on post resurrection. The entire focus of the teaching and preaching of the Gospels was revealing the new work of God in Christ. Jesus was not focused on teaching Jews under the Law. Jesus was teaching the coming Kingdom of God (which is referenced over 50x in the book of Matthew) and specifically contrasts the characteristics of the Kingdom and its citizens with the laws and traditions of the Pharisees. Your twisting of Scripture is baffling.

You refuse to understand that what Jesus taught to the Jews was the keeping of the law of Moses and that He was the Messiah and He was ready to set up the Jewish kingdom on this earth.

So because I don't see it your way I am teaching a heresy. Does that mean I should be put under the RCC inquisition. And yet I post the scriptures that confirm what I am saying. Thanks for you self righteous condemnation of what I believe. It shows an intolerant attitude towards those that do not yield to your belief.

You can not show me one place in the 4 gospels and the first 7 chapters of Acts where Jesus and the 12 ever said we are not under Law of Moses and yet it was not required under the grace message Jesus gave to Paul.

You are saying that what I write and believe is wrong because it is not what you write and believe. You believe in religion(s). I don't. When Jesus walked the earth He had a very low opinion of what the Jewish religion had become and yet some, today, think that religion is what He came to set up. It was religion that condemned Jesus to death and put Him on a cross..

Except for the book of Hebrews all the things you listed are true under grace.