WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

[Eternally Grateful]

But Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about God hardening hearts ala Romans 9:18 and Romans 11:7-10. Some other scriptures that I also find disturbing, which is why I'm doggedly sticking with this conversation. To see if I can glean any new insights.

From a pastoral heart standpoint, I would say to someone who wants to return to Jesus after a 5-year absence, that by definition IS repentance, so Hebrews 6:6 does not apply. Go to Him.

I disagree brother

Heb 6 warning people not to return to the law.

Under the law you can fall away. and you can be renewed by confession and animal sacrifice.

The author is stating, If one could fall away (as if under the law) they could never be renewed to repentance..

No animal sacrifice can remove sin.. and if they decide to reject the sacrifice that could have removed sin, to go back to religion and the jewish way.. They would be lost forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

The rest of the chapter tells us what Paul means by “vain.” Some among them were saying there was no resurrection of the dead (vs. 12). Paul answers that if Christ is not risen, “your faith is also vain” (vs. 14), and “your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins” (vs. 17).

So the issue is not someone genuinely receiving eternal life and then losing it because they failed to hold on tightly enough. Paul is distinguishing saving faith in the gospel from a faith that falls short of truly believing the gospel. Scripture shows that continuing in the faith reveals what was genuine from the beginning. “If they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19).

So, the “IF” is confirming the reality of their profession and is not teaching that believers maintain their salvation by holding fast in their own strength/self preservation. Genuine faith that results in salvation does not ultimately abandon Christ and His gospel.

I just saw that post was in october.. Which makes sense. He has a nice little chatroom where he can say and do whatever he wants. and anyone who disagrees with him or calls him out is banned.

Its sad that any christian chat room would be led by people like this. but hey, so be it.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Hebrews 6. no

It is what is impossible in context..

For it is impossible....

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

But someone we both know came back after 5 years.
I do believe it's possible to come back.

Jesus said He would cast out NO ONE that comes to Him.

Not even Jesus could convince you...

 

[GodsGrace]

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

The rest of the chapter tells us what Paul means by “vain.” Some among them were saying there was no resurrection of the dead (vs. 12). Paul answers that if Christ is not risen, “your faith is also vain” (vs. 14), and “your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins” (vs. 17).

So the issue is not someone genuinely receiving eternal life and then losing it because they failed to hold on tightly enough. Paul is distinguishing saving faith in the gospel from a faith that falls short of truly believing the gospel. Scripture shows that continuing in the faith reveals what was genuine from the beginning. “If they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19).

So, the “IF” is confirming the reality of their profession and is not teaching that believers maintain their salvation by holding fast in their own strength/self preservation. Genuine faith that results in salvation does not ultimately abandon Christ and His gospel.

The member you have quoted above understands what VAIN means,,,
as do most persons.

There's conversation going on right now this moment.

 

[Lambano]

Heb 6 warning people not to return to the law.

No. You've completely missed the point of the whole letter.

The Letter to the Hebrews is NOT about mixing Torah observance with Christian beliefs. The theme and hortatory purpose of Hebrews is to exhort Jewish-Christians to "hold fast" to Christ.

5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. (Hebrews 3:5-6)

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end... (Hebrews 3:14)

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (Hebrews 4:14)

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful... (Hebrews 10:23)

It's about apostacy. Falling away. The there are something like 6 warnings against falling away.

 

[GodsGrace]

There's plenty of open wall space here if anyone wants to join me.

I'm in a Trinity thread that is causing in me a great desire to join you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe I like banging my head against the wall.

Please stop.
It will be costly to repair that wall.

 

[Lambano]

so you agree that if a person falls away, they they can be renewed to repentance in spite of what the author of Hebrews says?

I look at it this way: If you can repent, then you haven't irrevocably fallen away.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. You've completely missed the point of the whole letter.

The Letter to the Hebrews is NOT about mixing Torah observance with Christian beliefs. The theme and hortatory purpose of Hebrews is to exhort Jewish-Christians to "hold fast" to Christ.

5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. (Hebrews 3:5-6)

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end... (Hebrews 3:14)

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (Hebrews 4:14)

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful... (Hebrews 10:23)

It's about apostacy. Falling away. The there are something like 6 warnings against falling away.

See Lambano.
You know what Hebrews 6 is all about.

 

[GodsGrace]

I look at it this way: If you can repent, then you haven't irrevocably fallen away.

Hmmmm.
I want my award back.

OR
They fell away and then came back.

@Eternally Grateful likes to pick and choose which parts of any passage he'll accept.

He seems to like the part that seems to say that once someone leaves God they can NEVER come back to Him.
But he does not seem to like the part that confirms that a believer can fall away.

(we're working on this dilemma).

 

[mailmandan]

The member you have quoted above understands what VAIN means,,,
as do most persons.

There's conversation going on right now this moment.

The member I quoted does not understand that vain belief is not and never was saving belief in the gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

The member I quoted does not understand that vain belief is not and never was saving belief in the gospel.

Wanna make a bet?
How much?
Go check it out.

 

[mailmandan]

Wanna make a bet?
How much?
Go check it out.

I already checked it out.

 

[GodsGrace]

But Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about God hardening hearts ala Romans 9:18 and Romans 11:7-10. Some other scriptures that I also find disturbing, which is why I'm doggedly sticking with this conversation. To see if I can glean any new insights.

From a pastoral heart standpoint, I would say to someone who wants to return to Jesus after a 5-year absence, that by definition IS repentance, so Hebrews 6:6 does not apply. Go to Him.

God does not harden hearts that are not already in that process.
In some cases God just gives up.

Think of Pharoah.
Did he harden his own heart or did God harden it?

If you need the scripture, I will take the time to look it up.

The answer is BOTH.

 

[Lambano]

See Lambano.
You know what Hebrews 6 is all about.

I wanted to explore the issue of "an apostacy that cannot be remedied", to use Picirilli's term. Instead, I see denial that true apostacy can even exist, because what the author of Hebrews ACTUALLY SAYS doesn't match the theological models we've constructed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wanted to explore the issue of "an apostacy that cannot be remedied", to use Picirilli's term. Instead, I see denial that true apostacy can even exist, because what the author of Hebrews ACTUALLY SAYS doesn't match the theological models we've constructed.

One sentence is going to change what the Christian church has taught for 2 thousand years?

 

[Lambano]

God does not harden hearts that are not already in that process.
In some cases God just gives up.

Think of Pharoah.
Did he harden his own heart or did God harden it?

If you need the scripture, I will take the time to look it up.

The answer is BOTH.

I remember that well. When Pharoah hardened his own heart, God sent more plagues. When Pharoah was ready to fold his cards and give God what God demanded, that didn't suit God's plan, so God hardened Pharoah's heart so He could send another plague. Was that even necessary? That's one of the reasons why I'm interested in exploring this.

In the context of my college friend who converted to Judaism, she's shown no sign in the last 40+ years of wanting to return to being a Southern Baptist. A hardened heart?

 

[GodsGrace]

I wanted to explore the issue of "an apostacy that cannot be remedied", to use Picirilli's term. Instead, I see denial that true apostacy can even exist, because what the author of Hebrews ACTUALLY SAYS doesn't match the theological models we've constructed.

It's a very particular situation because most apostacy is a person abandoning GOD.
These jews were not abandoning God....
They were abandoning JESUS and the cross.
They still believed in God.

This is why it states that they were trampling the blood of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

I remember that well. When Pharoah hardened his own heart, God sent more plagues. When Pharoah was ready to fold his cards and give God what God demanded, that didn't suit God's plan, so God hardened Pharoah's heart so He could send another plague. Was that even necessary? That's one of the reasons why I'm interested in exploring this.

The above could be likened to
Romans 1:24
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity,


Jesus went to search for the lost lamb...
but eventually God will give up if that is ultimately what we want.

In the context of my college friend who converted to Judaism, she's shown no signs of wanting to return to being a Southern Baptist. A hardened heart?

She has come to stop believing in Jesus.
This is a bad situation.

She knows about Jesus..
she believed in Him...
and now she has stopped believing.

She is in the hands of a merciful God and only He knows the final outcome.

BUT,,,if she comes to her senses....
God will be happy to have her back in the hands of His Son.

 

[Lambano]

It's a very particular situation because most apostacy is a person abandoning GOD.
These jews were not abandoning God....
They were abandoning JESUS and the cross.
They still believed in God.

This is why it states that they were trampling the blood of Jesus.

I did have a colleague at work who left Christianity for Islam, changed her name. I didn't know her well. She obviously still believes in God, and probably respects Isa/Jesus as a prophet but not as savior (or sacrifice). Analogous?