WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

[Lambano]

It is not faithfulness. which is ongoing.. We either trust God with confident assurance of everything he said concerning the gospel. and eternal life

or we do not.

I agree that pistis, the word translated "faith" here, is about trust (which includes "belief"). This is a key point that changed everything for me.

Faithfulness is ongoing trust. What happens when we stop trusting Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree that pistis, the word translated "faith" here, is about trust (which includes "belief"). This is a key point that changed everything for me.

Faithfulness is ongoing trust. What happens when we stop trusting Christ?

trusting Christ in what?

Saving us?
the fact we need saved?
or different areas of our life not related to eternal salvation?

I need some more information before I can answer ya brother

 

[mailmandan]

Wanna make a bet?
How much?
Go check it out.

I see that the three of you on the other site are still grinding on the meaning of "in vain" and continue to quote the BDAG and mock me. This settles it for me below.

Defined as "without purpose," "in vain," "without result," or "casually/superficially". BDAG categorizes it to question whether an act or state lacks a genuine, substantive foundation. That's not a loss of salvation but a failure to believe the gospel unto salvation from the start.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a different understanding of 1 John 3:9, in the context of the theme of the entire letter and in the context of chapter 3 itself.

John's purpose in writing his letter is stated in 1 John 2:1a: My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. Throughout the letter, John exhorts his "little children" to avoid sin over 20 times in 5 chapters. I hope everyone agrees, this is the theme of the letter.

I agree.
John exhorts beievers not to sin...
but if they do sin, he provides a solution.

In chapter 3, John identifies his flock as Children of God:

3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! ... 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made manifest. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. ​

We are Children of God - but WE ARE NOT YET LIKE CHRIST, i.e. pure. This is a future hope, and John exhorts his little children to PURIFY THEMSELVES until Christ appears. Still with me? Good.

Yes.
Still with you.
This is the easy part.

Now, on to Chapter 3 verse 9:

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

​

Even though we are children and will not be mature until Christ returns, John is appealing to our identity as Children of God to not practice sin, because God's begotten sons and daughters do not and indeed cannot do that.

Right.
But some believe that what John is saying is that a believer CANNOT SIN.
Period.

It clearly states PRACTICES sin....
which is a life-style,
not a one time sin.

An appeal to identity. It took the modern world in which identity is everything for me to see that. I think this interpretation is logically consistent with 1 John 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. It also stops in its tracks the question, "What's the spec? What frequency of sinning counts as 'practicing sin'?" That's the kind of question a quality-control engineer would ask, and it's absolutely the wrong question.

I'm not too sure it's the wrong question.
It is important, it seems to me, that some boundary has to be set.
Some will always ask how many works it takes to be saved.
Silly question.
Some will ask how many sins will it take to be banished from the Kingdom.
Silly question.

If a person cannot distinguish between a sin....
and practicing sin...there's a problem with their undersanding of Christianity.

Paul said to cleanse ourselves...to purify ourselves.
It indeed is up to us to cooperate with God toward this effort...this is because
man retains free will even after salvation and God will force no one to remain a believer in Him.
Love must be freely given or it is not love.

Where is the line?
I could make a mistake and sin and steal one pen from a store....
if I steal a pen in every store I walk into .... it clearly shows a problem of the heart.

(I do believe we can grow to a point that sinning becomes ever less frequent)

I'd say:
Let's not make the effort to find out how many works are needed.
Let's not make the effort to find out how many sins will go into the life-style category.

Let's just love God and do our best.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see that the three of you on the other site are still grinding on the meaning of "in vain" and continue to quote the BDAG and mock me. This settles it for me below.

Defined as "without purpose," "in vain," "without result," or "casually/superficially". BDAG categorizes it to question whether an act or state lacks a genuine, substantive foundation. That's not a loss of salvation but a failure to believe the gospel unto salvation from the start.

Dan

WE ALL AGREE that those believing IN VAIN are not saved.
WE ALL AGREE on the meaning of vain...to one degree or another.

Get up to date!

Waiting on my prize money.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan

WE ALL AGREE that those believing IN VAIN are not saved.
WE ALL AGREE on the meaning of vain...to one degree or another.

Get up to date!

Waiting on my prize money.

Yet you all agree that those who are believing in vain did not start out believing in vain but finished that way.

No prize money for you. Did you see post #973?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews' call to "hold fast to the faith" isn't about sin, though the author does talk about that too. It's about loyalty to Jesus in the face of persecution. In the Hebrews case, it was pressure from fellow Jews. Under Nero and Domitian, it would be threats of torture, imprisonment, seizure of property, death of loved ones...

Faithfulness. That thing that Paul says a man is justified through.

I noticed a post of yours before and cannot find it again.
You said that what helped you to understand was that the word FAITH includes BELIEF.

And, as you surely know, the word BELIEF, in Greek has within it the idea of OBEDIENCE.
Paul used the words BELEIVE and OBEY interchangeably.
One example would be in

Hebrews 3:18-19
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

THOSE who were disobedient were THOSE who did not believe.
Same category of persons.

DISOBEDIENCE = UNBELIEF
and V V.

So you are absolutely correct in understanding the word faith as belief as obedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet you all agree that those who are believing in vain did not start out believing in vain but finished that way.

No prize money for you. Did you see post #973?

I saw it now.
He's agreeing with you!
But we'd have to check out WHEN he stated this.
Sometimes we misspeak.
He sure does say that vain means not saved NOW.

Never speak for the other member...rule no. 1
I broke a rule.


But I really do believe I'm right.
I guess I could ask.
Get the moolah ready.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet you all agree that those who are believing in vain did not start out believing in vain but finished that way.

No prize money for you. Did you see post #973?

Wait.

I need to think this over.
Believing in vain.
Believing without a purpose.
Believing without considering everything.

It might be like Luke 8:13

You know it's not this difficult.

Faith is what saves.

IF we have faith we are saved.
IF we do not have faith----at whatever point in our lives ---- we will not be saved.

2 Peter 2 we know FOR SURE these were saved and then left the faith and RETURNED to how they were before.

No need to go on about 1 cor 15:2

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see that the three of you on the other site are still grinding on the meaning of "in vain" and continue to quote the BDAG and mock me. This settles it for me below.

Defined as "without purpose," "in vain," "without result," or "casually/superficially". BDAG categorizes it to question whether an act or state lacks a genuine, substantive foundation. That's not a loss of salvation but a failure to believe the gospel unto salvation from the start.

thats why I will not go to that site anymore.. They only want people there who will agree with them.. the reviews of that site are accurate.. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, But they proved that they are what others say about them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan

WE ALL AGREE that those believing IN VAIN are not saved.
WE ALL AGREE on the meaning of vain...to one degree or another.

Get up to date!

Waiting on my prize money.

if you believed in vein,

were you ever saved?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I saw it now.
He's agreeing with you!
But we'd have to check out WHEN he stated this.
Sometimes we misspeak.
He sure does say that vain means not saved NOW.

Never speak for the other member...rule no. 1
I broke a rule.


But I really do believe I'm right.
I guess I could ask.
Get the moolah ready.

Yes..

Not saved NOW being the key

which means at one time, even though they believed in vein, that typical belief was not able to save them, so they were NEVER SAVED

 

[Lambano]

I noticed a post of yours before and cannot find it again.
You said that what helped you to understand was that the word FAITH includes BELIEF.

What I had in mind here was that Paul's model for "Justification through Faith" was Genesis 15:6. The key point is Abe trusted God, which necessarily means believing God. However, trust and belief are not completely synonymous; you may believe someone who says they intend to torture and kill you; that doesn't mean you trust them.

Your Hebrews 3:18-19 reference puts another aspect of πιστεύω into play.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wait.

I need to think this over.
Believing in vain.
Believing without a purpose.
Believing without considering everything.

It might be like Luke 8:13

You know it's not this difficult.

Faith is what saves.

IF we have faith we are saved.
IF we do not have faith----at whatever point in our lives ---- we will not be saved.

2 Peter 2 we know FOR SURE these were saved and then left the faith and RETURNED to how they were before.

2 peter 2 says they knew the way, it does not say they trusted the way. or had faith in the way

then it says they turned,

it is worse for them..

imagine spending eternity knowing you had the truth, and all you had to do is trust it, and in unbelief you walked away

 

[Marvelloustime]

actually it does not mean that .
IT means exactly what JESUS said , HE who continues in ME
he who continues NOT is cast out .
WE have to B ELEIVE . now if any do come out they were never of us .
But to imply we are not to warn and to remind one to continue in Christ , IS BAD NEWS .
OUR BELEIF in CHRIST DID save us . And so long as we continue TO BELIEVE and not rather b e moved
away into UNBELIF .
And now a word .
WHY do i see so many christains bedding up and down WITH A HARLOT of ecumeincal inclusive interfaith .
WHO HAS SOLD UNBELIEF as OKAY .
CAUSE ITS NOT OKAY , NOT BY A LONG SHOT is UNBELIEF in JESUS okay .
And we cannot preach BELEIEF and UNBELEIF .
MANY are now p roving they are not OF HIM . they runn ing to an ecumeincal inclusive intefaith interrelious dialogue
WHICH HAS SOLD A LIE to all religoins as well as to christendom .
SORRY b ut its not okay TO CLAIM oh I BELIEVE b ut then give a pass to all them other false religoins .
IF I DID that I WOULD ONLY BE DECIEVING MYSELF and i would NOT TRULY BELEIVE ONE MUST BELEIVE to b e saved .
SO again , WHY AM I SEEING those who cliam to BELEIVE THE GOPSEL
running to a peace plan of an ecumeincal inclusive intefaith of anti christ . EITIHER WE BELIEVE
or we dont BELIEVE . but we cannot claim to BELIEVE and yet All of a sudden its okay that all these other religoins do not
LETS JUST HUG AND HAVE WORLD PEACE . cause THAT IS OF ANTI CHRIST and of ANTI ChRIST it surely is .
WHO BY this peace SHALL DESTORY MANY .

@amigo de christo

 

[Lambano]

WE ALL AGREE that those believing IN VAIN are not saved.

"Believing in vain" means they should NOT have believed, because God would prove to be unfaithful. One of my issues with the Calvinist understanding of "election". The non-elect do not believe and in fact they SHOULD NOT believe. And if they did believe, it was because God granted them an "evanescent grace" to permit them to believe, and then pulled the rug out from under them. One of the most revoltingly blasphemous doctrines ever to come out of the Reformation.

 

[Lambano]

believed in vein

Intravenous faith. For those who believe the doctrine of "infused righteousness".

 

[GodsGrace]

if you believed in vein,

were you ever saved?

No.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 peter 2 says they knew the way, it does not say they trusted the way. or had faith in the way

then it says they turned,

From what did they turn?

it is worse for them..

imagine spending eternity knowing you had the truth, and all you had to do is trust it, and in unbelief you walked away

 

[GodsGrace]

"Believing in vain" means they should NOT have believed, because God would prove to be unfaithful. One of my issues with the Calvinist understanding of "election". The non-elect do not believe and in fact they SHOULD NOT believe. And if they did believe, it was because God granted them an "evanescent grace" to permit them to believe, and then pulled the rug out from under them. One of the most revoltingly blasphemous doctrines ever to come out of the Reformation.

Yes sir.

Here it is:

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8