WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

[stevesonthebay]

[Numbers 15:30 KJV] 30 But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

There was no sacrifice offered for one of the congregation, or a stranger among them, to atone for willful sin.

Hebrews likewise does not offer a sacrifice for willful sinning...............[Heb 10:26 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,.............under the new covenant there is no Levitical offering to atone for willful sin.

Hebrews mentions "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".

Paul mentions in Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?.

I think if we continue to sin after recieving Christs sacrifice we then revert ourselves back to the old law where we become slaves to sin and the law. We make Christs sacrifice null and void.

Paul mentions about making the gentiles a pure sacrifice to God at the alter in Christ. When we recieve Christs we are making ourselves the sacrifice like Christ to God. This replaces the old law sacrifice.

The sacrifice is still relevant but it is now a living sacrifice our our flesh on the alter. Just as Christ did. That is making Christs sacrifice alive in us.

 

[Marvelloustime]

well that also occurs in some . But a delusion has come to now MERGE .
A delusion has come to UNIFY
A delusion has come indeed . And who has it come for and who will recieve it , ALL who rejected the love of the truth
and had pleasure in unrighteousness . And this delusion has come to merge the false already decieved religoins
with the decieved within christendom .
A delusion that hollers love often and loudly and yet has no love for the TRUTH that does expose their sins .
A delusion has come and come it has and it is all within that ecumeincal camp . F rom whence it came and from whence it surely sprang.
That means It came from folks IN WOOL . making it absolutely the worst thin g ever done .

@amigo de christo

 

[GodsGrace]

18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Hi RLT
Sorry for delay.

I asked you to whom 1 John 2:19 is adressed.

John is speaking to believers and calling them LITTLE CHILDREN...
but he is most certainly not addressing the little children.

Care to try again?

or I'll give you the answer.
John is addressing those that left the group of believers.
Why did they leave?
Because they were never part of the group to begin with.
But NOT because they were "never really saved"....
It's because those that left were gnostics...a totally different group than those we speak of on these
threads.

Of course gnostics were never believers.
So it's incorrect to place them with those that were supposedly never saved to begin with.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is the question?

It's an interesting question RLT...

Try to leave your theology behind...
and answer this:

Re 1 Cor 15:2


1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



What does BELIEVE IN VAIN mean?

Did some believe,,,but it was in vain,
so now they are no longer believers...

or

Were those that believed in vain never believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am leery of the "practices" translation because of how and why it changed the from the traditional reading, and in particular the "life-style of sin" interpretation. First of all, I'm not sure "don't make it a life-style" was the author's intended message; I think the intent was "don't do it". And second, as an engineer, you can't have vague specs. Everybody sins (except apparently a certain user in another thread who shall remain nameless); at what point is it a "life-style"? That leads to all kinds of issues.

Hi Lambano,
I did want to reply to the above but been too busy.

You don't like the PRACTICES rendition of 1 John 3:9

OK

But if it means just comitting sins and it does NOT refer to a lifestyle...
doesn't that conflict with John in 1 John 1:9?

In 1 J 1:9 he's staying we can be forgiven for our sins.

In 1 J 3:9 he's saying we will not sin.

??

Changing it to PRACTICES SINNING resolves the "apparent" contradition.

 

[Lambano]

Changing it to PRACTICES SINNING resolves the "apparent" contradition.

And I'm saying that the "apparent contradiction" DOES NOT NEED TO BE RESOLVED.

And I am objecting to an interpretive framework that NEEDS to resolve the "apparent contradiction" because it does not take into account the function of 1 John 3:9 in the author's overall hortatory purposes. Nor does it take into account the impact of the 1 John 3:2 context: Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet made manifest. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him... And everyone having this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. That should make it clear that while we are NOW children of God, we are NOT YET in the ontological state where we cannot sin. Until then, we are to learn to practice NOW what we will be THEN.

Reading in context and assessing the author's overall argument are basic reading comprehension skills that everyone who learned English as their first language should have learned by high school. But no, everyone pulls 1 John 3:9 out of context and says, "It's a contradiction! It contradicts 1 John 1:8!" And what's worse, the translators of NIV, NASB, ESV, NET et al effectively acknowledge this "apparent contradiction" and use the continuing-action aspect of the Greek Present Indicative verb tense to add words like "practice sinning", or "continue sinning" when they know better. This obscures the author's original argument and perpetuates nonsense like "if you're still sinning, you're not 'born again' and you're going to Hell", and "If I unfortunately still sin, is it a 'practice' slash 'lifestyle'?" and "I must be sinless, because I had an experience I understand as being 'born again'".

 

[RLT63]

Hi RLT
Sorry for delay.

I asked you to whom 1 John 2:19 is adressed.

John is speaking to believers and calling them LITTLE CHILDREN...
but he is most certainly not addressing the little children.

Care to try again?

or I'll give you the answer.
John is addressing those that left the group of believers.
Why did they leave?
Because they were never part of the group to begin with.
But NOT because they were "never really saved"....
It's because those that left were gnostics...a totally different group than those we speak of on these
threads.

Of course gnostics were never believers.
So it's incorrect to place them with those that were supposedly never saved to begin with.

What are you hoping to prove? That a person can lose their salvation or that a person can’t lose their salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

And I'm saying that the "apparent contradiction" DOES NOT NEED TO BE RESOLVED.

And I am objecting to an interpretive framework that NEEDS to resolve the "apparent contradiction" because it does not take into account the function of 1 John 3:9 in the author's overall hortatory purposes.
Nor does it take into account the impact the 1 John 3:2 context: Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet made manifest. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him.. And everyone having this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. That should make it clear that while we are NOW children of God, we are NOT YET in the ontological state where we cannot sin. Until then, we are to learn to practice NOW what we will be THEN.

Reading in context and assessing the author's overall argument are basic reading comprehension skills that everyone who learned English as their first language should have learned by high school. But no, everyone pulls 1 John 3:9 out of context and says, "It's a contradiction! It contradicts 1 John 1:8!" And what's worse, the translators of NIV, NASB, ESV, et al effectively acknowledge this "apparent contradiction" and use the continuing-action aspect of the Greek Present Indicative verb tense to add words like "practice sinning", or "continue sinning" when they know better. This obscures the author's original argument and perpetuates stuff like "if you're still sinning, you're not 'born again' and you're going to Hell", and "If I still sin, is it a 'practice'?" and "I must be sinless, because I had an experience I understand as being "born again".

Yes. The above will require some time.
I think we're speaking past each other.
I agree with you.
Have company.
Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

What are you hoping to prove? That a person can lose their salvation or that a person can’t lose their salvation?

When I post I'm not hoping to prove anything.

I go by what plain scripture states and I do not bring my theology to it.

I did say that you were to leave your theology behind and just do the language in the text.
The very fact that you're asking me this shows that you have not done so and this means that any future repy from you will not be properly thought out.

I believe in conditional eternal security.
I believe, from scripture, that a person can forfeit their salvation.

This is NOT what I'm asking about.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I'm saying that the "apparent contradiction" DOES NOT NEED TO BE RESOLVED.

And I am objecting to an interpretive framework that NEEDS to resolve the "apparent contradiction" because it does not take into account the function of 1 John 3:9 in the author's overall hortatory purposes. Nor does it take into account the impact of the 1 John 3:2 context: Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet made manifest. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him... And everyone having this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. That should make it clear that while we are NOW children of God, we are NOT YET in the ontological state where we cannot sin. Until then, we are to learn to practice NOW what we will be THEN.

I agree.


1 John 3:7-10
. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


Some take verse 9 to mean that man cannot sin if he is IN CHRIST.
I see this often to refute my verse John 15:2 that a branch IN JESUS can be removed.
The reply is that if someone is IN JESUS he cannot sin, as is noted in 1 J 3:9
This is noted by some that do not even agree with sinless perfection,
but must find some way to get out of John 15:2



The easiest way to explain that refutation is to say how 1 J 3:9 must surely mean something else is to show that it conflicts with 1 J 1:9
We are surely not in the ontological state of complete pureness as when we will be like Him.
But, I might try this next time around.

Reading in context and assessing the author's overall argument are basic reading comprehension skills that everyone who learned English as their first language should have learned by high school. But no, everyone pulls 1 John 3:9 out of context and says, "It's a contradiction! It contradicts 1 John 1:8!" And what's worse, the translators of NIV, NASB, ESV, NET et al effectively acknowledge this "apparent contradiction" and use the continuing-action aspect of the Greek Present Indicative verb tense to add words like "practice sinning", or "continue sinning" when they know better. This obscures the author's original argument and perpetuates nonsense like "if you're still sinning, you're not 'born again' and you're going to Hell", and "If I unfortunately still sin, is it a 'practice' slash 'lifestyle'?" and "I must be sinless, because I had an experience I understand as being 'born again'".

Right.
Of course you're right in all the statements this brings about.

But I do have to say that verse 6 does create a problem...

1 John 3:6
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

IF we ABIDE, which is an ongoing condition, then we will not sin.
But it also states that IF we sin, we have not known Him.
THAT, in my humble opinion, is the problematic statement.

It seems to me that the actual conflict would be between Jesus' own words in John 15:2
and John's teaching in 1 J 1:9 and 1 J 3:6-9


It's apparent that one could not produce fruit and be cut off the vine.
John 15 also states that IF one abides he WILL produce fruit.

It all seems to make sense to me...
the problem is always explaining it to those that insist on OSAS and it skewers so much scripture.

 

[RLT63]

When I post I'm not hoping to prove anything.

I go by what plain scripture states and I do not bring my theology to it.

I did say that you were to leave your theology behind and just do the language in the text.
The very fact that you're asking me this shows that you have not done so and this means that any future repy from you will not be properly thought out.

I believe in conditional eternal security.
I believe, from scripture, that a person can forfeit their salvation.

This is NOT what I'm asking about.

I don't have a firm position on this issue. There are plenty of scriptures that one could argue support OSAS but the Bible also says that your name can be taken out of the Book of Life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't have a firm position on this issue. There are plenty of scriptures that one could argue support OSAS but the Bible also says that your name can be taken out of the Book of Life.

Not only can your name be blotted out of the Book of Life...
but what about all the warnings Paul gives?
To say nothing of what Jesus teaches.

I'm trying to concentrate right now on 1 Cor 15:1-2
Do you think that those that believed in vain NEVER believed
or do you think they believed at one time but then stopped believing?
It would depend on how you define IN VAIN.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

 

[RLT63]

Not only can your name be blotted out of the Book of Life...
but what about all the warnings Paul gives?
To say nothing of what Jesus teaches.

I'm trying to concentrate right now on 1 Cor 15:1-2
Do you think that those that believed in vain NEVER believed
or do you think they believed at one time but then stopped believing?
It would depend on how you define IN VAIN.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

They are like the seed that fell on stoney ground, they have no roots

 

[GodsGrace]

They are like the seed that fell on stoney ground, they have no roots

I agree.
Those that believed in vain....
this means that they never had salvific faith...
they never believed what Paul was teaching.
There are two groups of people here:
One believed and Paul is telling them to Hold Fast their faith.
The other group never believed....their belief was in vain...of no value.

 

[Lambano]

But I do have to say that verse 6 does create a problem...

1 John 3:6
6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

IF we ABIDE, which is an ongoing condition, then we will not sin.
But it also states that IF we sin, we have not known Him.
THAT, in my humble opinion, is the problematic statement.

This point deserves some more thought.

I still have to reject the interpretive framework that says John is making literal judgements about the instantaneous spiritual state of the person each time they commit a sin. And the interpretation that John is talking about "continuing to sin" or "making a lifestyle practice of sin" isn't helpful in applying to real life.

The purpose of the letter is to convince his readers to do something. My thesis has been that John is appealing to his flock's collective sense of who they are. John wants to cultivate the mindset, "Yes, I do know Him. I am with them who had seen Him from the beginning (ref. verses 1:1-3). I abide in Him; therefore, I must strive to avoid sin."

This interpretive framework still holds.

And if the reader decides to neglect John's exhortation...

 

[amigo de christo]

Not only can your name be blotted out of the Book of Life...
but what about all the warnings Paul gives?
To say nothing of what Jesus teaches.

I'm trying to concentrate right now on 1 Cor 15:1-2
Do you think that those that believed in vain NEVER believed
or do you think they believed at one time but then stopped believing?
It would depend on how you define IN VAIN.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

and another example of in vain is living in sin and yet cliaming to Beleive .
Lord these two things i ask of thee deny me them not .
Give me neither riches nor poverty . Riches lest i become full and deny thee
and poverty lest i steal and take your name in Vain .
Our belief is vain if it be in another jesus . Its vain if we simply use His name and cliam to beleive on HIM
and yet walk in darkness .
IF one Truly BELIEVES ON JESUS , GUESS WHOSE WORDS they would have TRULY BELIEVED .
For no man has SEEN HIM . T RUTH .
Many now follow another jesus and thus another god and believing in this other god
which has fed their lustful hearts desires and given them a promise of sin and salvation . AND
my near dear friend , THAT ONE AINT JESUS and iT AINT GOD and IT IS NOT the HOLY SPIRIT .
So we better all beware and be on gaurd because the all inclusive god and has many co workers
and co helpers to the lie are now at work . Their mission is , TO MERGE as one .
Watch out and beware lest ye too become a partaker of their evil deeds and false love
and FALL to the ERROR of the wicked . . We got a real clever and well favored harlot at work .
And as her father the devil , she can lie and surely seduce .

 

[amigo de christo]

I agree.
Those that believed in vain....
this means that they never had salvific faith...
they never believed what Paul was teaching.
There are two groups of people here:
One believed and Paul is telling them to Hold Fast their faith.
The other group never believed....their belief was in vain...of no value.

What would you say if i told you that all other religoins are false and of the devil himself . NOT GOD .
From the muslim to the buddist to any other and all other isms .
And what would you do IF i told you that the devil himself and his co workers
can even USE THE NAME OF JESUS , even appear to be as though they christain ,
and yet USE the name of JESUS to , well to DECIEVE and to lead this people into GREAT rebellion
AGAINST THE TRUE CHRIST OF GOD and His saints .
What would you do if i told you THERE TRULY is a harlot at work .
And that she does do the will of herfather the all inclusive god . And she sells her lies and her lie
by means of a harlots LOVE . which is nothing more than FORNICATION of upmost rebellion
against THE ONE TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST .
And what would you say if i told you THIS THING has grown massive and has infiltrated nigh every house
almost every church , politics and all . And that is has prepared them and IS preparing them
FOR the last and final hour merger by which all who were co helpers to it and beleivers in it
are being led to their own destruction and yet believe this is the way to peace n safety .
OH its real and oh its happening NOW . SO lets all bible up and get busy learning .

 

[GodsGrace]

This point deserves some more thought.

I still have to reject the interpretive framework that says John is making literal judgements about the instantaneous spiritual state of the person each time they commit a sin. And the interpretation that John is talking about "continuing to sin" or "making a lifestyle practice of sin" isn't helpful in applying to real life.

The purpose of the letter is to convince his readers to do something. My thesis has been that John is appealing to his flock's collective sense of who they are. John wants to cultivate the mindset, "Yes, I do know Him. I am with them who had seen Him from the beginning (ref. verses 1:1-3). I abide in Him; therefore, I must strive to avoid sin."

This interpretive framework still holds.

And if the reader decides to neglect John's exhortation...

Yes. I agree.
Present tense...
exactly how I would understand John to be teaching.
We are abiding now...
we are not sinning now...
do not sin while you are abiding.

Those that know Him will not sin...
not that they cannot sin,,
but they will not want to sin.

John does hold the possibility to be open...(to sin)
thus the warnings.

It's these warnings that some ignore.

 

[Fred J]

Not at all
Hebrews is written to believing Israel NOT us. Israel is under covenant not us. In the new covenant there is still no offering for willful sin
This is I thought helpful in understanding Hebrew 10:26. Its not about our salvation.

Doug, just because the epistle is address to the Hebrews in the New Covenant, doesn't mean the Gentiles are not included in this lesson.

Gentiles are also partakers of the New Covenant equal with the Jews, for there's neither Jews or Gentiles remember?

It was address to the Hebrews, because Jews prior to this lived under the Law, tend to reflect back things pertaining to the Old Covenant.

This can cause the Gentiles to be influenced as well following the Jews of the Old Covenant who were saved and are looked upon as the Lord's people before them.

In the epistle to the Galatians even, the Gentiles were influenced by the sneaked in Jews as believers, in the matter of 'circumcision' pertaining to the Old Covenant.

For Jews and Gentiles, believers or non believers, Christ became the sin bearer and made atonement for sins once and for all, and now resides as Great High Priest in Heaven.

Therefore there's no longer sacrifices nor atonemant for sins anymore, and that's why the Gospel according John verifies that the unbelieving world will be guilty of sin for not believing in Jesus Christ.

On the other hand for Jews and Gentiles believers, under the New Covenant equally, they have now 'confession' for their sins. (1John1:9)

Sin is lawless or lawless is sin, based on falling short as 'doers' and 'abiders' in the foundation of the New Covenant doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Doug, stop going on like before 'dividing' the New Covenant foundation, deciding which is for the Jew believers and which is for the Gentile believers.

For example according to the same epistle to the Hebrews, is Jesus Christ a Great High Priest for only believing Israel and not for the believing Gentile nations?

There's no such nonsense but you're back at it again and it's a stumbling block for fresh believers to fall.

 

[Lambano]

We are abiding now...
we are not sinning now...
do not sin while you are abiding.

Those that know Him will not sin...
not that they cannot sin,,
but they will not want to sin.

I see those as ideals that are yet to be realized, though they will be some day. I unfortunately have the Reformed view of the pervasiveness of sin: In acts of commission, in self-centered thoughts and in harsh words as well as in deeds; and in acts of omission, the times in which we do not do the good we ought, when we fail to love God with our whole heart, mind, soul, and strength, and when we do not hear the cry of the needy and fail to love our neighbor as ourselves.

If this is indeed the reality, then our "abiding in Him" has a cat door through which we go in and out of "Him" multiple times a day.