What is Predetermined?

[Taken]

What is Predetermined?
OP ^

Predetermined is not Predestined.

Predetermined is Gods Plan of His Creation and Making.

Predestine is God ALREADY knowing WHO of His made creations will Choose by their own Freewill to seek and accept His........Re-MAKING.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Renniks]

No, not wrong.

Look, Ma, Another sinless human!

 

[Taken]

Look, Ma, Another sinless human!

What a goofball.
No such thing as a sinless human!
Here’s your pointy hat, off to the corner.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

No, not wrong.

yea, completely wrong.

 

[Keiw]

Strawman argument which you have invented and I haven't presented. Naughty.

There is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. Rather than prove freewill is impossible, as some would say, the penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

Those who ultimately choose to obey God are predestined for eternal glory.

Those who ultimately choose to disobey God are predestined for be eternally sorry.

While God's grace is sufficient for all, it is only efficient for some.

Mat 13:18-22 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

(19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

(20) But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; (21) yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

(22) Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

(23) But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

WHAT TURNS THE WICKEDLY SINFUL HEART OF THE WAYSIDE, THE STONEY PLACE, & THE THORNY PATCH SINNER INTO THE FRUITFULLY FAITHFUL HEART OF THE GOOD, RICHLY FERTILE, PRODUCTIVE SOIL SAINT?

• PREPARATION
• CULTIVATION
• IRRIGATION
• EXAMINATION

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
Gal 6:4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.[/QUOTE


Obeying Jesus is the way-John 14:15-24--Proof of ones love for him, not lip service and singing songs = 2% but obeying every teaching.=98%

 

[Taken]

yea, completely wrong.

Sorry you have not yet learned...
Conversion=born of God=son of God=Freed from sin=sins No More

 

[Renniks]

What a goofball.
No such thing as a sinless human!
Here’s your pointy hat, off to the corner.

Sorry you have not yet learned...
Conversion=born of God=son of God=Freed from sin=sins No More

Look, Ma, another guy who constantly contradicts himself!

 

[robert derrick]

You are dodging the issue..

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true, and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

And now to waffle and sidestep the godly premise that salvation is [eternal] life, you have danced all the more around the scriptures until they seem to say what they do not. --That is not what Paul was referring to in Romans 7, but your own actions, they do define double-mindedness.

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true,

True. Your doctrine is false.

and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

This is a lie to equate righteous and blameless living of Christ in this world, with sinless perfection that comes in the resurrection of the body.

The difference between saints in Christ and the ungodly sinners of OSAS is:

1. Christian Saints are not ungodly sinners, and ungodly sinners are not Christian saints.

2. Saints know it is possible to still sin in this life, so long as we remain in sinful mortal bodies, and if we keep not that body under subject to the law of the Spirit, and if we do sin, then we can be forgiven with confession of godly sorrow and repentance.

Ungodly OSAS sinners declare it is not possible to depart from iniquity in this life, even while naming the name of Christ, and when they do trespass again, they are already forgiven without need of repentance at all.

And so, are you saying that the wretched double mindedness Paul was empathizing with in Rom 7, is the unavoidable and perpetual state of all Christians unto death?

Are you an ungodly sinner?

 

[robert derrick]

Look, Ma, another guy who constantly contradicts himself!

Are you an ungodly sinner?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Are you an ungodly sinner?

you are, i am, we all are. But whats more laughable is your inability to understand OSAS. You’ve had more than enough explanations, yet you still dont get it. Pride i suppose.

 

[Taken]

Look, Ma, another guy who constantly contradicts himself!

LOL....oh lookie another rookie gasligher, armed with his pocket of false Accusations, as his pseudo creds...

Wise up... “sinless” is YOUR WORDS, YOUR CLAIMS, YOU EAT THEM!
I said NO SUCH THING!

Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....no human men are SINLESS!


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....FORGIVENESS OF SIN, is obviously, A GLARING CLUE SIN is admittedly PRESENT, TO BE FORGIVEN!


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....A BODY OF FLESH “DOES NOT BECOME SINLESS, UNTIL IT IS RISEN IN UNCORRUPTION!“


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”...Forgiven, Saved men walking about the earth, ARE NOT IN GLORIFIED BODIES!
ARE NOT SINLESS....THEY ARE FREED FROM ABILITY TO AGAIN Commit SIN!


What happened...Public School education?

 

[robert derrick]

Strawman argument which you have invented and I haven't presented. Naughty.

There is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. Rather than prove freewill is impossible, as some would say, the penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

Those who ultimately choose to obey God are predestined for eternal glory.

Those who ultimately choose to disobey God are predestined for be eternally sorry.

While God's grace is sufficient for all, it is only efficient for some.

Mat 13:18-22 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

(19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

(20) But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; (21) yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

(22) Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

(23) But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

WHAT TURNS THE WICKEDLY SINFUL HEART OF THE WAYSIDE, THE STONEY PLACE, & THE THORNY PATCH SINNER INTO THE FRUITFULLY FAITHFUL HEART OF THE GOOD, RICHLY FERTILE, PRODUCTIVE SOIL SAINT?

• PREPARATION
• CULTIVATION
• IRRIGATION
• EXAMINATION

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
Gal 6:4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Those who ultimately choose to obey God are predestined for eternal glory. Those who ultimately choose to disobey God are predestined for be eternally sorry.

You've hit the nail on the head: Predetermination is of what, not who.

What is predetermined is for them that believe from the heart and are conformed to His image to obey Him unto the end will be glorified with Him, being worthy tow walk in white.

God foresaw who would not believe at all, who would believe and not be confirmed, who would believe, be confirmed, and turn back, and finally the elect who would believe, be confirmed, and endure unto the end:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Of the many believing and professing and called, some would not go on to being obedient saints unto the end: the chosen elect.

OSAS is the devil's seduction for luring the called into a filthy grace of ongoing sins and trespasses, and so not be chosen.

While God's grace is sufficient for all, it is only efficient for some.

Good turn of phrase.

The grace of God is sufficient for all who need and seek help to endure temptation and overcome sin unto the end.

Such grace is not efficient for them who only want grace to cover them while being overcome with sin.

Struggling with sin in the muck and the mire of sin is a game for ungodly sinners trying to name Christ.

Enduring temptation is only for them that endure and overcome unto the end.

 

[robert derrick]

LOL....oh lookie another rookie gasligher, armed with his pocket of false Accusations, as his pseudo creds...

Wise up... “sinless” is YOUR WORDS, YOUR CLAIMS, YOU EAT THEM!
I said NO SUCH THING!

Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....no human men are SINLESS!


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....FORGIVENESS OF SIN, is obviously, A GLARING CLUE SIN is admittedly PRESENT, TO BE FORGIVEN!


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”....A BODY OF FLESH “DOES NOT BECOME SINLESS, UNTIL IT IS RISEN IN UNCORRUPTION!“


Any serious student of Scripture “SHOULD KNOW”...Forgiven, Saved men walking about the earth, ARE NOT IN GLORIFIED BODIES!
ARE NOT SINLESS....THEY ARE FREED FROM ABILITY TO AGAIN Commit SIN!


What happened...Public School education?

I.e. they justify their ongoing ungodliness of life with trying to equate righteous and blameless living of the saints to resurrected perfection.

They do it on purpose.

What happened...Public School education?

That question could be legitimately asked in the 60's, which is the spawning ground of modern OSAS.

It's the free-sin hippy realm for professing Christians: "I know I still do bad things, but God knows my heart is good."

OSAS sinners don't see themselves as filthy and ungodly as unpredetermined sinners.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I.e. they justify their ongoing ungodliness of life with trying to equate righteous and blameless living of the saints to resurrected perfection.

They do it on purpose.

What happened...Public School education?

That question could be legitimately asked in the 60's, which is the spawning ground of modern OSAS.

It's the free-sin hippy realm for professing Christians: "I know I still do bad things, but God knows my heart is good."

OSAS sinners don't see themselves as filthy and ungodly as unpredetermined sinners.

nothing you said made any sense. What denomination are you? Its clearly bad teaching.

 

[robert derrick]

What is Predetermined?
OP ^

Predetermined is not Predestined.

Predetermined is Gods Plan of His Creation and Making.

Predestine is God ALREADY knowing WHO of His made creations will Choose by their own Freewill to seek and accept His........Re-MAKING.

Glory to God,
Taken

Actually, I'll stop using predetermined, since it's not even in Scripture, and just stick with predestined. The predestined plan is to confirm believers to His dear Son's image by the Lamb slain on the cross for sins: the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.

We agree on the the main point that who is foreknown and what is predestined.

I refer to Scripture to say not who, but what is predestined: He foreknows who would choose Him, and predestined them to be conformed to His image.

If they do not go on to do so, then they are called due to faith, but not chosen due to disobedience to the faith.

God foreknew all things by seeing all things come to pass: He therefore foreknows the many that will begin the race vs the few that will finish lawfully unto the end.

God does not foreknow who, because of predetermining who, and so making some souls different from others at conception.

 

[robert derrick]

Psalms 139:

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance.

God did not know the substance of souls, until He searched them at their making, which the Word has done so far all souls past, present, and future, and so with God foreknew the substance of all souls in the beginning, after being made equally by Himself.

God predestined all souls to be made alike and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth, and then has searched their substance from beginning to end.

David was not speaking of his own soul being made peculiarly different from any other, but rather Scripture is showing how all souls are peculiarly made by God alike.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

All souls were peculiarly made at the time of conception: at the time of being covered in the womb.

No soul was predestined to be made one way or another before ever being made and covered in flesh.

God predestined all souls to be made the same alike and equally with free will to choose Him or not, and then the Word has searched all souls to know their manner and substance throughout time from on high above all heavens.

The lie of predestinating some souls unto salvation and some souls to destruction, is from the carnal-minded error of Calvin, who believed God foreknew who because He predetermined who.

God foreknew who by searching all at the time of their living and so foreknowing all before the world ever began.

God has already seen and so foreknown the results of His predestining all souls to be made equally with free will, and so He foresaw many would believe and be called, but only few would abide faithful and endure temptation unto the end, and so chosen as His elect for eternal salvation and resurrection of the body unto life and not unto shame.

 

[Taken]

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true,

True. Your doctrine is false.

and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

This is a lie to equate righteous and blameless living of Christ in this world, with sinless perfection that comes in the resurrection of the body.

The difference between saints in Christ and the ungodly sinners of OSAS is:

1. Christian Saints are not ungodly sinners, and ungodly sinners are not Christian saints.

2. Saints know it is possible to still sin in this life, so long as we remain in sinful mortal bodies, and if we keep not that body under subject to the law of the Spirit, and if we do sin, then we can be forgiven with confession of godly sorrow and repentance.

Ungodly OSAS sinners declare it is not possible to depart from iniquity in this life, even while naming the name of Christ, and when they do trespass again, they are already forgiven without need of repentance at all.

And so, are you saying that the wretched double mindedness Paul was empathizing with in Rom 7, is the unavoidable and perpetual state of all Christians unto death?

* ARE you AWARE....OT, NT, TODAY, Gods SPIRIT IS “WITH” men who “ARE” Believing in the Lord God?
* La, la, la, la, oooh la, la,.....God is WITH, God is WITH, God is WITH.....

* Oh, oh, oh....men siting in power position seats, (government, CEO’s with a microphone, news stations blasting 24-7)....do this, don’t do that, buy this, don’t buy that, eat this, diaper your mouth, stop talking, stop all that God speak, stop touching people, stop going outside, stop traveling, black this white that divide, divide, divide.........
* Oh, oh, oh.....Crisis, crisis, crisis....sky is falling, earth is quaking, food fields are rotting, earth is too cold, earth is too warm, wars, wars, wars, gimmy, gimmy, gimmy your wealth, oh, oh, oh,.....more crisis....the really really scary deadly thing, men can not; see, hear, smell, taste, touch.....
Be AFRAID, BE AFRAID, death is coming to your door step....
“WHAT A novel GIMMICK....!”
* Oh, oh, oh.....the Earthly men ‘power sitters”, have a solution to their ...
“Pseudo created, unseen, unheard, unsmelled, untasted, untouched”... SCARY, Fearful, DEATH promotion.....
(Freebie poison INJECTIONS....repeatedly....(worry none, you will get the bill later in higher taxation !)

* AND THAT GUY.....oooh, aah, oooh la la, who WAS “WITH” God....just “signed up”, “agreed to”........the Power sitting man TO BE HIS SAVIOR!
* The Power sitter guys.....Preached he is going to SAVE YOUR LIFE!!
* oooh, ah, oooh la, la,....all safe and comfy with “with their new DADDY MASTER WHO WILL SAVE THEIR LIFE”!

Well guess what....When a man IS believing and WITH God, and trades God in for a NEW MASTER....GOD WILL LEAVE THAT MAN!

BUMMER! Gods RULES. God is Jealous. Can’t have TWO MASTERS.

PRAISE God, for His OFFERING of Salvation, BEFORE DEATH, BEFORE a man becomes ignorantly TRICKED, by SLY, cunning, Slick power sitting men....

Saved, Quickened, Converted, KEPT, by the POWER OF GOD........
WITH that man..... but, but, but, what is different ....God was WITH other believing men.....and LEFT THEM...

Q-tip anyone? The CONVERTED, “CAN NOT”, be tricked, fooled, baited, fall for the cheap shots, the scare tactics of men in power positions, to ABANDON GOD and Yield to a “NEW three-piece-suit MASTER”....

BECAUSE....God is NOT ONLY “WITH” that man....Gods Spirit, IS “IN” that man....AND.......as you do not comprehend....that man IS SAVED, and IS KEPT SAVED FOREVER, BY THE Spirit of GOD....”IN” that man.
ONCE the CONVERSION OF ANY man IS ACCOMPLISHED...
IT IS KEPT Accomplished FOR EVER....which is precisely what OSAS,
Means.

So who’s your MASTER? Are you just hanging WITH God? Still dabbling WITH Him kinda of sort of, and dabbling WITH a worldly man Master....hoping one of them will SAVE YOUR LIFE?


Or is your MASTER “IN” you? His POWER Keeping you unto Him forever? OSAS

ANYONE willing to stand against God the Master? Preach Gods Power is a failure? Against OSAS?

 

[Taken]

I.e. they justify their ongoing ungodliness of life with trying to equate righteous and blameless living of the saints to resurrected perfection.

They do it on purpose.

What happened...Public School education?

Public schools, A missed lesson in fostering cognitive skills.

That question could be legitimately asked in the 60's, which is the spawning ground of modern OSAS.

Not sure I would call the teaching of Jesus, 2,000 years ago “modern”.
However, His teaching expressly taught, Gods Spirit IN a man, was gifted to men who, by Confession AGREED to be forgiven and kept from from sin, by GODS Power.

It's the free-sin hippy realm for professing Christians: "I know I still do bad things, but God knows my heart is good."

YOU DO BAD THINGS to the Lord God? Like what? Call Him names, Blame Him for your faults, Bad mouth Him to your friends? What?

OSAS sinners don't see themselves as filthy and ungodly as unpredetermined sinners.

WHY should they?
Do you enter a room, turn on the light, and say....WOW look at all this darkness?

 

[ScottA]

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true,

True. Your doctrine is false.

and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

This is a lie to equate righteous and blameless living of Christ in this world, with sinless perfection that comes in the resurrection of the body.

The difference between saints in Christ and the ungodly sinners of OSAS is:

1. Christian Saints are not ungodly sinners, and ungodly sinners are not Christian saints.

2. Saints know it is possible to still sin in this life, so long as we remain in sinful mortal bodies, and if we keep not that body under subject to the law of the Spirit, and if we do sin, then we can be forgiven with confession of godly sorrow and repentance.

Ungodly OSAS sinners declare it is not possible to depart from iniquity in this life, even while naming the name of Christ, and when they do trespass again, they are already forgiven without need of repentance at all.

And so, are you saying that the wretched double mindedness Paul was empathizing with in Rom 7, is the unavoidable and perpetual state of all Christians unto death?

Are you an ungodly sinner?

You need to learn to use the "Quote" feature (lower right) to separate what you are commenting on from your on reply. That's what it's there for...so anyone can tell who's comment is who's. Just making your would-be quotes Bold, is not entirely clear.

Select what you want to reply to, then click on "Quote." If you want to reply or comment on multiple parts of someone's post, repeat the process of selecting and quoting, then click on the "Insert Quotes" at the bottom of the page, and then comment below each individual quote.

 

[ScottA]

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true,

True. Your doctrine is false.

This is how the "Quote" feature works. But since you rewrote my original comment, both now appear to be what you posted-- and that is the problem and confusion you are creating.

Back to your comment:

It is your incorrect understanding of what salvation is that is false. One who is born [again] of God's spirit, is One with God, and God cannot lose His salvation. Period. Your claim is against God, and therefore false.

and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

This is a lie to equate righteous and blameless living of Christ in this world, with sinless perfection that comes in the resurrection of the body.

The difference between saints in Christ and the ungodly sinners of OSAS is:

1. Christian Saints are not ungodly sinners, and ungodly sinners are not Christian saints.

2. Saints know it is possible to still sin in this life, so long as we remain in sinful mortal bodies, and if we keep not that body under subject to the law of the Spirit, and if we do sin, then we can be forgiven with confession of godly sorrow and repentance.

Ungodly OSAS sinners declare it is not possible to depart from iniquity in this life, even while naming the name of Christ, and when they do trespass again, they are already forgiven without need of repentance at all.

And so, are you saying that the wretched double mindedness Paul was empathizing with in Rom 7, is the unavoidable and perpetual state of all Christians unto death?

Are you an ungodly sinner?

Sin is sin.

But you are wrong in your assessment of those who are saved and actually know that it is eternal, regardless of your wrongful judgement of them. You are not the measure of salvation, God is, and He has made it perfectly clear that it is eternal life.

As for Paul in Romans 7, his words are a witness and a testimony against your claims, and for what it is that I have presented to you. Sin is sin, but once a person is in God, and God in them as One-- this is salvation, which is eternal. But Paul spells out the problem (which is in accord with the prayer of Christ of those remaining under the tribulations of this world), saying of himself, that even he was not perfect as Christ was/is perfect and righteous. And if your wrongful claim were at all true, it would not only be the loss of salvation for those you are accusing, but also for Paul. But having spelled out and clarified the issue of what is otherwise considered unrighteousness by God, he also clarified that it was indeed not a loss of salvation, but also clarified that for those like himself, "to live is Christ." Your claims, therefore, are also against Paul and Christ.

The truth of sin and salvation must agree with all of scripture: That none are righteous save One, and only in Him, do we have salvation, not by works, or even by being righteous as Christ was righteous, but in Him alone...not by our own righteousness, but by His righteousness; and that even sin for those who are in Him, is not counted as sin. This is true because all who have sinned perish, but "God is the God of the living", meaning those who are born [again] of the Spirit. Which was Paul's clarification that both laws exist in those who are saved, which is not against the saved as you say; but rather that in our mind we "serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin", which is not counted as sin. Romans 7:25