What is the Bible?

[bbyrd009]

It is just two different people giving their own perception of what they witnessed. This is why in a court of law, there needs to be a number of witnesses to authenticate an observed event. The variations in what different people see at an event is quite commonplace. Any intelligent person knows that!!

No offense Mr. Christiansen but that seems like a pretty lame defense? “The Bible is wrong here because these two supposedly faithful people gave conflicting accounts?”

 

[Brakelite]

But do we require the evidence of eyewitnesses or do we live for God by faith?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Heb 11:1-3

I have somewhat of a different perspective. We are not on trial here, God is. It isn't our characters that are in dispute. It's God's. It isn't our character that's in doubt. There is no doubt about who we are. But God? There is huge confusion, even in the church, as to who God is. What He is like. Even now we are still debating over whether He is capable of tormenting people in fire for all eternity. We debate over whether He rules by power or love. So He calls us as His witnesses. Witnesses that God is
love. We testify to His goodness. That witness is about principle... Character. Not about the exact number of crazy men running naked around a cemetery. Our witness isn't to every specific detail in every story in scripture... The narrative of scripture isn't word inspired... Its thought inspired. The accurate witness of the disciples isn't to the detail, but the character and principled sinless life giving power of the Redeemer.

No offense Mr. Christiansen but that seems like a pretty lame defense? “The Bible is wrong here because these two supposedly faithful people gave conflicting accounts?”

What's the alternative?

 

[Brakelite]

Well, seems to me that the gospels don’t usually portray the apostles in the best light anyway, right? So I’m not sure why that would not have been recorded if it was Pertinent?

Also, to me that’s just suggesting a discrepancy in the Bible, and frankly I doubt that; I’m pretty sure the two recordings agree with each other, only spiritually, not literally, Two men in a bed

Yet literally there's still that seeming discrepancy. Which do you think the more pertinent... One crazy psycho or two,? Sure, there may be spiritual lessons, but it's still an event that took place and was significant enough to warrant inclusion in 3 of the 4 gospels.

 

[bbyrd009]

Which do you think the more pertinent... One crazy psycho or two,?

I think it’s more pertinent to realize that both accounts are accurate, and the one is the two, The two are the one

Sure, there may be spiritual lessons,

Otherwise what else is scripture for?

What's the alternative?

well, one would be to accept all three accounts as completely accurate, from a certain pov maybe?

Our witness isn't to every specific detail in every story in scripture

hmm

 

[amadeus]

I have somewhat of a different perspective. We are not on trial here, God is. It isn't our characters that are in dispute. It's God's. It isn't our character that's in doubt. There is no doubt about who we are. But God? There is huge confusion, even in the church, as to who God is. What He is like. Even now we are still debating over whether He is capable of tormenting people in fire for all eternity. We debate over whether He rules by power or love. So He calls us as His witnesses. Witnesses that God is
love. We testify to His goodness. That witness is about principle... Character. Not about the exact number of crazy men running naked around a cemetery. Our witness isn't to every specific detail in every story in scripture... The narrative of scripture isn't word inspired... Its thought inspired. The accurate witness of the disciples isn't to the detail, but the character and principled sinless life giving power of the Redeemer.

I agree that we are, or should be, the witnesses for who and what God is or is not. Yet our testimonies do not coincide precisely as you indicate with reference to torment or to power versus love. Yet in the end is not someone going to be like Him? Our pathway put before us by God is the Way, is it not, to becoming like Him?

Consider the case of Jesus where they are insistent that he be found guilty under the law God had given to Moses, but they had trouble with their witnesses:

"And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
But neither so did their witness agree together" Mark 14:55-59

Why were they so concerned about the witnesses? Because of the law!

"At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." Deut 17:6

The High Priest, who apparently was not on the side of Jesus or God, then stepped in hoping to force the issue by Jesus' own words:

"And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:60-62

Jesus answered speaking the truth and the High Priest denounced him and while doing so clearly broke the law himself:

"Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?" Mark 14:63

"And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;" Lev. 21:10

Now, however, they agree to condemn Jesus :

"Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." Mark 14:64

How many courts render judgment against a person based on the testimony of the prosecuting attorneys?

Are we as followers of Christ today better than those prosecutors who witnessed and judged Jesus, effectively calling him a liar? Why are we better, if we are? Is our witness [our lives] since receiving Jesus and the Holy Spirit better than the life David lived after killing Goliath? If it is not, why not?

Was Jesus lying in Mark 14:62? We may say nay, but what was it we saw to render this judgement? What did we see that atheists reading the same verses in scripture have not seen? Why is our witness better than that of avowed atheists? Why was the witness of the High Priest, a son of the line of Aaron. along with the witness of his entourage considered or treated as a better than that of Jesus?

The Bible it would seem witnesses to probably any reader, including an atheist, that men are quite fallible, sometimes even after they have known the Lord. [Did the disciples prior to the crucifixion and resurrection know Jesus, who was according his words, the Resurrection?] If the Bible is literally true on every point, then why do supposed believers argue and disagree on almost every point at one time or the other with regard to what is written?

Who decided that Bible is the Word of God?

That Jesus is the Word of God may be clear from what is written, but where does it clearly say that Jesus is the Bible? Yet that is what many are effectively saying. No place in the written scriptures does Jesus say that he was the scriptures. Rather he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

He did not say he was the scriptures or the Bible. He did not say that no man cometh to the Father, but by the Bible.

We should listen sometimes to what @mjrhealth writes and what @bbyrd009 asks. Those two often bump their heads together sharply but on this point are they seem to be a standing closer together? Hmmm?

Perhaps even those who are apart will eventually come together as properly connected parts? Hmmm?

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

Where is God's mouth? Could it be my mouth, or the mouth of @Brakelite2 , or the mouth of @mjrhealth , or the mouth of @bbyrd009 , or any one of the mouths of all the other participating members of this forum?

Jesus is the Head and who is the Body of Christ? Is the Bible the Head or the Body... or perhaps the whole of the Body of Christ? Where then is the Holy Spirit, the Lifeblood of the Body? Is it in the written scriptures or is it in a person quickening that which is consumed by that person so that he, the person, may be a part of the Body connected to and subject to the Head?

So what is this talk about errors in the written scriptures? Does it matter ultimately or are they small messages or stumbling blocks to be sorted through? Will not the Holy Spirit in a person sort through and sift out any chaff for burning and while quickening any wheat to Life? Why did the bush Moses saw not burn up? Who died from the heat of Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace and who walked within it without being burned at all?

 

[bbyrd009]

Our witness isn't to every specific detail in every story in scripture

hmm

Maybe one day you should read it with your eyes open

One of the is not the same. Please you know the game

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Mar 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

Luk 8:26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.
Luk 8:27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

one was different witness as the same by differnt name.

And Jesus is Gods word, He was given that title, its in the bible.

fwiw Gerasa and Gadara were "decapolis" cities, and "Legion" is likely a pretty big clue?

 

[bbyrd009]

i'd suggest that the demoniac in chains reps our current Christian "believers" but i'm afraid it would be taken wrong...but nonetheless, the elements are all there looks like

 

[Paul Christensen]

Nonetheless it seems like you have to admit that, reading literally, the accounts do not make sense, do not reconcile with each other

If there are two people relating an event, they will relate it from their own perspective. It is not the actual event which is the issue, but the perspective of the person relating it. I don't see a contradiction in it at all, and it does not diminish the authority of the Bible for me.

 

[Paul Christensen]

But do we require the evidence of eyewitnesses or do we live for God by faith?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Heb 11:1-3

John Owen, the Puritan divine, said, "The Bible is infallible, but our faith is fallible. As long as a person's faith is rooted in the written Scriptures, then the fallible faith is totally connected with the infallible Scriptures. But if a person's faith is in some new extra-Biblical "revelation" then both the faith and the revelation are fallible and prone to error.

 

[bbyrd009]

If there are two people relating an event, they will relate it from their own perspective. It is not the actual event which is the issue, but the perspective of the person relating it. I don't see a contradiction in it at all, and it does not diminish the authority of the Bible for me.

i recall accepting that explanation at the time too; certainly plausible yeh
might even be the case, i dont know
but i am led to believe otherwise now
plus, imo it serves as a great trap

 

[Paul Christensen]

No offense Mr. Christiansen but that seems like a pretty lame defense? “The Bible is wrong here because these two supposedly faithful people gave conflicting accounts?”

If you are rejecting the authority of the Bible, then you are rejecting God's authority, because the Bible is God's communication to mankind. We must be careful about that.

What we have here are accounts of the same incident from two different people. One might have been present to witness the events first hand, and the other may have heard about the event second hand. After all, this is narrative, and not something to build a doctrine on. If you are going to use this to deny the authority of the Bible for you, then so be it. But don't be surprised if you don't hear the Holy Spirit speaking to you, and what you might be hearing might be some other spirit that also will not accept the authority of God.

 

[amadeus]

John Owen, the Puritan divine, said, "The Bible is infallible, but our faith is fallible. As long as a person's faith is rooted in the written Scriptures, then the fallible faith is totally connected with the infallible Scriptures. But if a person's faith is in some new extra-Biblical "revelation" then both the faith and the revelation are fallible and prone to error.

Sorry but you are placing your faith in the man you named and his conclusion rather than in God and His Word! That is faith in something extra-biblical! Jesus is the Word made flesh. No where in the scriptures is it written that the scriptures are equal to Jesus. From the scriptures, we may indeed receive the Truth, but only by the Holy Ghost.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

The Bible may be our source of Truth but only when and if what we partake of it, is quickened by the Holy Ghost/Spirit! Otherwise all of study of the Bible using man's logic and study by man's brain alone is a weariness of the flesh as Solomon described it:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

And resorting to this:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

... does not improve on the matter unless in our study we are always led by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sorry but you are placing your faith in the man you named and his conclusion rather than in God and His Word! That is faith in something extra-biblical! Jesus is the Word made flesh. No where in the scriptures is it written that the scriptures are equal to Jesus. From the scriptures, we may indeed receive the Truth, but only by the Holy Ghost.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

The Bible may be our source of Truth but only when and if what we partake of it, is quickened by the Holy Ghost/Spirit! Otherwise all of study of the Bible using man's logic and study by man's brain alone is a weariness of the flesh as Solomon described it:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

And resorting to this:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

... does not improve on the matter unless in our study we are always led by the Holy Ghost.

So, would you be saying that Paul is giving false teaching when he said, "Be followers of me as I am of Christ", and he told Timothy to pass on the things he taught him, to faithful men who will teach others. So, if Paul is not wrong when he said those things, then how is it wrong for me to follow John Owen, as he undoubtedly follows Christ in what he teaches?

Do you think that the Holy Spirit would give you special revelation teaching, when there are good men who He has already given insight into Scripture? Does that mean you would go to church and sit under your pastor's preaching because that is just the teaching of man, and you would rather get your own revelations from the Holy Spirit directly?

Why would Jesus tell His Apostles to go into all the world and make disciples for Him, when the people could just get direct revelation from the Holy Spirit instead of listening to "the teachings of man"?

 

[Brakelite]

If I may I would like to quite Ellen White on the authority of scripture. This may come as a surprise to many, considering most believe Adventists follow her, rather than scripture...
Christ foresaw that the undue assumption of authority indulged by the scribes and Pharisees would not cease with the dispersion of the Jews. He had a prophetic view of the work of exalting human authority to rule the conscience, which has been so terrible a curse to the church in all ages. And his fearful denunciations of the scribes and Pharisees, and his warnings to the people not to follow these blind leaders, were placed on record as an admonition to future generations.
The Romish Church reserves to the clergy the right to interpret the Scriptures. On the ground that ecclesiastics alone are competent to explain God's Word, it is withheld from the common people. Though the Reformation gave the Scriptures to all, yet the self-same principle which was maintained by Rome prevents multitudes in Protestant churches from searching the Bible for themselves. They are taught to accept its teachings as interpreted by the church; and there are thousands who dare receive nothing, however plainly revealed in Scripture, that is contrary to their creed, or the established teaching of their church. GC88 596.1 - GC88 596.2

 

[mjrhealth]

John Owen, the Puritan divine, said, "The Bible is infallible, but our faith is fallible. As long as a person's faith is rooted in the written Scriptures, then the fallible faith is totally connected with the infallible Scriptures. But if a person's faith is in some new extra-Biblical "revelation" then both the faith and the revelation are fallible and prone to error.

What ever happened to Faith in God, I didnt know the bible was God. Was it the bible that died for your sins, was it the bible that was put up on that Cross, and suffered death, was it the bible that God gave all things to, was it the bible that twas raised up from the dead, if Not when did it replace Jesus as the" Word of God".

 

[mjrhealth]

If I may I would like to quite Ellen White on the authority of scripture. This may come as a surprise to many, considering most believe Adventists follow her, rather than scripture...
Christ foresaw that the undue assumption of authority indulged by the scribes and Pharisees would not cease with the dispersion of the Jews. He had a prophetic view of the work of exalting human authority to rule the conscience, which has been so terrible a curse to the church in all ages. And his fearful denunciations of the scribes and Pharisees, and his warnings to the people not to follow these blind leaders, were placed on record as an admonition to future generations.
The Romish Church reserves to the clergy the right to interpret the Scriptures. On the ground that ecclesiastics alone are competent to explain God's Word, it is withheld from the common people. Though the Reformation gave the Scriptures to all, yet the self-same principle which was maintained by Rome prevents multitudes in Protestant churches from searching the Bible for themselves. They are taught to accept its teachings as interpreted by the church; and there are thousands who dare receive nothing, however plainly revealed in Scripture, that is contrary to their creed, or the established teaching of their church. GC88 596.1 - GC88 596.2

And even less going to God or Christ to learn.

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

But who needs Christ men have there bible.

 

[Enoch111]

If I may I would like to quite Ellen White on the authority of scripture. This may come as a surprise to many, considering most believe Adventists follow her, rather than scripture...

Ellen G. White did give Scripture due consideration, but then she also came up with some ideas which are distortions of what is revealed in the Word of God. To say that the finished work of Christ remained (and remains) unfinished is a major error (some even call it heresy). Not to mention converting days into years and making 1844 special.

“As the priests in the earthly sanctuary entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the sanctuary, Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and to cleanse the sanctuary....As the years passed, she made it abundantly clear that the doctrine of the investigative judgment was a cardinal tenet of Scripture and was of vital importance to Seventh-day Adventists..."
The Investigative Judgment in the Writings of Ellen G. White

However, when Jesus shouted triumphantly on the cross "IT IS FINISHED" He completed the finished work of Christ on the cross, and then after His resurrection applied His blood to the Mercy Seat in the heavenly Sanctuary (as revealed in Hebrews). He is now in Heaven as the High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek, as both Advocate and Intercessor for the saints.

 

[Enoch111]

What ever happened to Faith in God, I didnt know the bible was God.

Why make such inane statements? Nobody claims that the Bible is God, but the Bible tells us that faith in God and saving faith come from the Bible itself -- the preaching of the Gospel, which is also called the Word of God. It is the Bible which tells sinners that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES and rose again for our justification ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

 

[mjrhealth]

the Word of God.

Really which part, that title was given to Jesus, mention fords in a book about cars doesnt make is a Ford book. So we insist on putting words into Gods mouth, many people would get upset if someone said, that they said, something they never said, yet God cops it daily as does His "Word".

 

[Taken]

What is the Bible?
OP ^

Brakelite2-
Nicely done!

I believe The Bible is the foremost:
intriguing, facinating, compelling,
BOOK "ABOUT":

The "Knowledge" of the WHOLE of a Spiritual God,
...And
The "Knowledge" of the WHOLE of ALL of Natural mankind.

*******
Natural & Spiritual Life;
Natural & Spiritual Death;
Natural & Spiritual Habitats;
Natural & Spiritual Behaviors;
Natural & Spiritual Choices;
Natural & Spiritual Results for Choices;
Natural & Spiritual Burdens / Sorrow;
Natural & Spiritual Comfort / Joy;
Natural & Spiritual Offerings;
Natural & Spiritual Blessings;
Natural & Spiritual Gifts;
Natural & Spiritual Rewards;
Natural & Spiritual Examples;
Natural & Spiritual Wisdom in exercising each individual's own freewill.

I believe these "modern" (so to speak) generations ARE Advantaged...
Having Centuries of ("Written" and "Available"), mankind Historical "Examples" from which to examine "their" choices and "their" results.

Glory to God,
Taken