What is the meaning of Tartarus

[bbyrd009]

And you know the name change how?

how do i know that the Greek Lazarus reps the Hebrew father Eleazar? Tbh i dont remember, it was too long ago. But google can help there

And the order the names or persons mentioned is quite irrelavent

well, so you say, yes

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Well not in those exact words I wrote, but it is the same!

exactly; iow Paul never said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” since he surely believed I will never leave you nor forsake you. He instead uses an inclusive “we” as, effectively, an accusation

Well as we are not talking abot living a pleasing life- to quote it in this discussion is irrelavent

yet it seems that Paul was saying exactly that; to seek to live a life pleasing (to Yah) whether present or absent, now using “we” as praise, when obviously “we” do not all seek to live a life pleasing to God, heck, no one ever even Quotes that part eh; the part that is, literally, the point, which would also be the most pleasing to Yah right

 

[Ronald Nolette]

exactly; iow Paul never said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” since he surely believed I will never leave you nor forsake you. He instead uses an inclusive “we” as, effectively, an accusation

please explain how this is an accusation and not a statement of fact.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

how do i know that the Greek Lazarus reps the Hebrew father Eleazar? Tbh i dont remember, it was too long ago. But google can help there


well, so you say, yes

exactly; iow Paul never said “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” since he surely believed I will never leave you nor forsake you. He instead uses an inclusive “we” as, effectively, an accusation

yet it seems that Paul was saying exactly that; to seek to live a life pleasing (to Yah) whether present or absent, now using “we” as praise, when obviously “we” do not all seek to live a life pleasing to God, heck, no one ever even Quotes that part eh; the part that is, literally, the point

That is the point of that paticular statement. But p[art is saying whether we are present in the body or absent we seek to please HIm! This is more than one point.

 

[bbyrd009]

please explain how this is an accusation and not a statement of fact.

well, likely or at least possibly by saying “we are cock-sure, i tell you, and even wish that we were already dead, and living it up with Jesus in heaven; however…”

That is the point of that paticular statement. But p[art is saying whether we are present in the body or absent we seek to please HIm! This is more than one point.

the point there being that “we” (ostensibly) seek to please Him while in the body, yet “we” (mis)Quote the self-serving part and not the culmination of the passage, to please ourselves

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well, likely or at least possibly by saying “we are cock-sure, i tell you, and even wish that we were already dead, and living it up with Jesus in heaven; however…”

And just how is that an accusation? Are you saying Paul sureness was ufounded and that God didnot inspire this phrase?n

the point there being that “we” (ostensibly) seek to please Him while in the body, yet “we” (mis)Quote the self-serving part and not the culmination of the passage, to please ourselves

Well let us look at the passage.

2 Corinthians 5
King James Version

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.



First 8 verses are speaking of the natural and divine body. Paul then speaks of being absent from the body = being present with the Lord.

Then comes verse 9 with the "wherefore" So Paul is simply making a closing statement that because of the facts of the first 8 verses we labour!

And the we is an expression to describe Christians! So verse 9 is a closing thought and not the main thrust! And we can be sure of that by the use of the word "wherefore".

 

[bbyrd009]

And just how is that an accusation? Are you saying Paul sureness was ufounded and that God didnot inspire this phrase?

well, i would hesitate to say anything on the matter tbh; i would just examine the use of “we” in those phrases, and understand how they might be expressing the thoughts of “we” without actually expressing any truth, per se. With an “I tell you” in there, for good measure; “We are confident, i tell you, and even wish etcetc” is iow quite possibly a way to say that the etcetc is a desire, and not a truth

Well let us look at the passage

in English though, right? And we are talking about Paul here, of whom it is said that people interpret him to their destruction. So, dont “we” basically seek to get our souls into heaven after death, when the Bible assures us that it is the spirit that goes back to God, Who gave it?

I think Paul is speaking to that, and i might even provide a completely different translation, albeit still in English, but my point is really that Paul never says “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” or else I will never leave you nor forsake you, and many other vv, Return to Me and I will return to you, etc, would be senseless, at least imo.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well, i would hesitate to say anything on the matter tbh; i would just examine the use of “we” in those phrases, and understand how they might be expressing the thoughts of “we” without actually expressing any truth, per se. With an “I tell you” in there, for good measure; “We are confident, i tell you, and even wish etcetc” is iow quite possibly a way to say that the etcetc is a desire, and not a truth

Not if you follow rules of grammar!

The we is either the collective we of all Christians, or the cadre that travelled with Paul.

And the wish was to be absent from the body so they could be present with the Lord! Paul also alluded to this when He said for me to live is Christ and to die is gain! He wishes to be home with teh Lord but also knows being here blesses the saints.

 

[farouk]

And just how is that an accusation? Are you saying Paul sureness was ufounded and that God didnot inspire this phrase?n



Well let us look at the passage.

2 Corinthians 5
King James Version

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.



First 8 verses are speaking of the natural and divine body. Paul then speaks of being absent from the body = being present with the Lord.

Then comes verse 9 with the "wherefore" So Paul is simply making a closing statement that because of the facts of the first 8 verses we labour!

And the we is an expression to describe Christians! So verse 9 is a closing thought and not the main thrust! And we can be sure of that by the use of the word "wherefore".

So much in 2 Corinthians....

 

[farouk]

"For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment." - 2 Pet. 2:4—Holman margin)?

The noun tartarus, or tartaros, was used in Grecian mythology as the name for a dark abyss or prison in which wicked spirits were kept imprisoned and were punished. And when the Roman Catholic Church in the Dark Ages took over from the heathen the doctrines of the consciousness of the dead and the eternal torment of the wicked, it without Biblical warrant magnified the heathen idea of tartarus.

The noun form, tartarus, is not found in the Scriptures, but the verb form, tartaroo, taken from the same root, occurs one time, in 2 Pet. 2:4. This one verb, tartaroo, is by the translators of the King James Version rendered by five words, “cast them down to hell,”—thus including a verb, a personal pronoun, an adverb, a preposition and a noun. This fact properly arouses suspicion that some violence has been done in this translation of the verb tartaroo. If we keep in mind the basic idea of tartarus as mentioned above--a prison—and make a verb of it, we have the true meaning of the verb tartaroo, i.e., to imprison.

Thus the Apostle Peter by the verb tartaroo tells us that God imprisoned the angels that sinned (Gen. 6:2-4; 1 Pet. 3:19, 20), and he adds that they were delivered “into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment”; and since the Apostle Jude (6, 7) tells us that such imprisonment lasts until the judgment of the great day (into which we have already entered), and since these fallen angels as the power of the air (Eph. 2:2; 6:12, margin) are active among humans, e.g., in demonizing people, appearing in séances and other occult practices, we conclude that earth’s atmosphere is their prison (Matt. 8:28-32; 12:22-28).

Interesting marginal reference at 2 Peter 2.4...

 

[bbyrd009]

The we is either the collective we of all Christians, or the cadre that travelled with Paul.

And the wish was to be absent from the body so they could be present with the Lord!

so, see the difference in "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," a declaration, v "we are confident (i say) and even wish that we were absent..."

Paul also alluded to this when He said for me to live is Christ and to die is gain!

well...paul also said "I die daily," and i dont know but i suspect that it was more in that vein

He wishes to be home with teh Lord but also knows being here blesses the saints.

well, i believed that for the longest myself, but taking the preponderance of Scripture as a whole, i have just come to suspect that that is wishful thinking now, wadr; chiefly when i discovered the actual point of that whole passage, which i had never heard a believer utter! And particularly being Paul, who is so easily misinterpreted, and also had so many opportunities to give up the spirit if he had wanted to...it just slowly begins to present the opposite. Personally i have little doubt that Paul sought "Life, more abundantly" now

 

[Paul Christensen]

"For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment." - 2 Pet. 2:4—Holman margin)?

At first, when I read the word "Tartarus" I thought it was a sauce they put on fish.

 

[bbyrd009]

At first, when I read the word "Tartarus" I thought it was a sauce they put on fish.

might be interesting to discuss why all these Greek gods are in the NT

 

[Taken]

What is the meaning of Tartarus
OP ^

Deepest portion of hell; with complete separation from God and without option to escape.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well...paul also said "I die daily," and i dont know but i suspect that it was more in that vein

Well Paul defined that- it is to die daily to self or to teh old man and to live in the new man!

so, see the difference in "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," a declaration, v "we are confident (i say) and even wish that we were absent..."

When we have an issue accepting Scripture as written with all the euphemisms and metaphors etc. It become difficult when we have been taught badly.

There is no warrant to take Pauls Corinthian statement metaphorically, especially in light of the explanation given. when a believere dies- they are absent from teh body- and present with the Lord. there is no non existence or soul sleep as some cults teach.

well, i believed that for the longest myself, but taking the preponderance of Scripture as a whole, i have just come to suspect that that is wishful thinking now, wadr; chiefly when i discovered the actual point of that whole passage, which i had never heard a believer utter! And particularly being Paul, who is so easily misinterpreted, and also had so many opportunities to give up the spirit if he had wanted to...it just slowly begins to present the opposite. Personally i have little doubt that Paul sought "Life, more abundantly" now

and all that has nothng to do with the fact that when a believer dies we go to be with the Lord. Even John in REv. 19 shows that;

Before Jesus returns, in heaven there is a group of people (OT saints) who shout that teh marriage of teh Lamb has arrived. then the bride appears dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints. This is no metaphor but a scene from heaven which John was to see

All this takes place before Jesus returns to earth and before teh first resurrection. there is not alot concerning saints going to heaven in the NT so each time it does appear it carries much weight.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no warrant to take Pauls Corinthian statement metaphorically, especially in light of the explanation given.

id tend to agree, if Paul made a statement of fact or truth, which imo he pretty obv did not

“we are hypocrites, i tell you, and even wish that we possessed wings, so that we could fly”
now WHERE ARE MY WINGS DAMMIT lol

when a believere dies- they are absent from teh body- and present with the Lord

well then why did Paul just not just say that

there is no non existence or soul sleep

”soul” and “life” mean the same thing in the orig, rn

Before Jesus returns

which also cannot be Quoted rn, sorry, not one single time
Return to Me and I will return to you is all you get for that, near as i can tell anyway

All this takes place before Jesus returns to earth and before teh first resurrection

well, wadr i dunno what you mean there by “all this,” but it might surely take place before Jesus appears, sure

there is not alot concerning saints going to heaven in the NT so each time it does appear it carries much weight

No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it though right rn?

 

[RR144]

What is the meaning of Tartarus
OP ^

Deepest portion of hell; with complete separation from God and without option to escape.

Glory to God,
Taken

What scriptural support do you have for this?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

id tend to agree, if Paul made a statement of fact or truth, which imo he pretty obv did not

Well sorry, but your opinion doesn't match the facts. Your comparisons are inane. We can wish as youyr 2nd statement said. but Paul didn't wish for life after death, but wished He could be absent from the body to be present with the Lord. That is what is written.

well then why did Paul just not just say that

He did! Just not in a way that seemingly meets with your approval.

”soul” and “life” mean the same thing in the orig, rn

Wrong!

Life is "zoe" and means existence"

Soul is pseuche which is the seat of emotions and thought.

which also cannot be Quoted rn, sorry, not one single time
Return to Me and I will return to you is all you get for that, near as i can tell anyway

Well from this verse alone- no. But taken with the whole consel of God- yes.

well, wadr i dunno what you mean there by “all this,” but it might surely take place before Jesus appears, sure

People being alive in heaven and not is some kind of soul sleep[ or non existence.

No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it though right rn?

To that point- NO! But afterwards lots and lots of folk. Bible says so.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well sorry, but your opinion doesn't match the facts. Your comparisons are inane. We can wish as youyr 2nd statement said. but Paul didn't wish for life after death, but wished He could be absent from the body to be present with the Lord. That is what is written

meh, i guess we’ve both given our take there rn, and all i could really add is that its hard to unsee something after one has seen it. If you believe Paul meant “I” when he said “we” then bam go with that

Wrong!

Life is "zoe" and means existence"

Soul is pseuche which is the seat of emotions and thought.

"Psuche is the life which makes a man living; it is man’s natural life, that is, the life of the soul. When the Bible speaks of man’s life, it uses this word. What we want to pay attention to now are the words "soul" and "soul-life." In the original language, they are the same word.
THE SOUL-LIFE"
i got this by a search of-
”soul” and “life” mean the same thing
-fwiw, it was at the top, and if you are able to post a valid refute, so much the better!

i think zoe is maybe more like "spiritual life" or something,
but i appreciate this reminder that meat and milk dont mix, rn; have a nice day ok

To that point- NO! But afterwards lots and lots of folk. Bible says so.

ok then, best of luck to you

 

[bbyrd009]

“zoe”
Life is a network of interacting elements

 

[Davy]

"For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment." - 2 Pet. 2:4—Holman margin)?

The noun tartarus, or tartaros, was used in Grecian mythology as the name for a dark abyss or prison in which wicked spirits were kept imprisoned and were punished. And when the Roman Catholic Church in the Dark Ages took over from the heathen the doctrines of the consciousness of the dead and the eternal torment of the wicked, it without Biblical warrant magnified the heathen idea of tartarus.

The noun form, tartarus, is not found in the Scriptures, but the verb form, tartaroo, taken from the same root, occurs one time, in 2 Pet. 2:4. This one verb, tartaroo, is by the translators of the King James Version rendered by five words, “cast them down to hell,”—thus including a verb, a personal pronoun, an adverb, a preposition and a noun. This fact properly arouses suspicion that some violence has been done in this translation of the verb tartaroo. If we keep in mind the basic idea of tartarus as mentioned above--a prison—and make a verb of it, we have the true meaning of the verb tartaroo, i.e., to imprison.

Thus the Apostle Peter by the verb tartaroo tells us that God imprisoned the angels that sinned (Gen. 6:2-4; 1 Pet. 3:19, 20), and he adds that they were delivered “into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment”; and since the Apostle Jude (6, 7) tells us that such imprisonment lasts until the judgment of the great day (into which we have already entered), and since these fallen angels as the power of the air (Eph. 2:2; 6:12, margin) are active among humans, e.g., in demonizing people, appearing in séances and other occult practices, we conclude that earth’s atmosphere is their prison (Matt. 8:28-32; 12:22-28).

You have committed the very error you blame others for in liberty of translation.

You instead take the actual meaning about the angels that sinned being locked in chains in darkness until the great day of Judgement, and then do a 180 and say they are loosed as demons to torment the earth! YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AND GOD'S WORD BIG TIME!

What you are pushing is JEWISH traditions from Judaism, NOT Christian Doctrine per The New Testament.