What is the one true Church?

[MatthewG]

You dont think all the warnings and even the warnings in the revelation had no merit to the first ones? @Illuminator that who people forget about.


Throughout the narrative of the gospel, it talks about Jesus Christ, coming back to marry a bride in the Old Testament. It talks about God, putting away the old covenant, and marrying another, which is more perfect and beautiful.

It was filled with some of the most heartfelt believers who are watching and waiting during a terrible time in their country, which was falling apart, and then completely destroyed, which they were saved from having to even be in for too much of a time right before the end, when the fires came raining down and destroyed everything in desolating everything down to the ground.

People can believe whatever they want to. It doesn’t matter to me. I love you the same and I won’t hate you and I have a meal with you if you want to.

But Jesus Christ and the apostles, who were in charge of the church in that day we’re governing it for it to be ready for the return of Christ. That’s the whole message throughout the narrative of the gospel, and throughout the narrative of all the rest acts through revelation.

None of it, addressing me none of it, addressing the state of Alabama none of it, addressing the United States. None of it, addressing the whole world as people take it.

It was all about the land and the time and the promises of Jesus Christ, and what he was coming to do, which was to reconcile the world back to the father in heaven.


That now today, people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who died, was buried in resurrected, you be able to become a child of God, by dying with Christ, and being raised again with Christ in the newness of life, with your spiritual life now and him being born again, becoming part of the kingdom of heaven, becoming a child of God, become a son or a daughter of God, all because Jesus Christ makes you right with him whenever you are having faith and trust in him to help you in your life and praying and asking him questions to help you to go in the right direction and not the wrong direction.

 

[Brakelite]

You confuse centrality with an empire. Rome was the capital city of the known world, and God in his wisdom chose Rome to (eventually) be the center of Christianity to best facilitate the spread of the Gospel

That is one of the most amusing statements I have seen you come up with. By the time the Catholic Church was organized sufficiently to send missionaries anywhere, the Christian church was well established almost everywhere, and it came as a shock for people like Augustine to discover the Britains for example already being positively evangelized by the Celtic church, whose founders had nothing whatsoever to do with Rome outside of fantasized myths, fairy tales and legends to support Roman superiority.

I suggest you google "fall of the roman empire". Pick any encyclopedia you like.

Why not stay with scripture? The fall of the western portion of the Roman empire is marvelously described in Daniel 7, where the 4th beast morphs into 10 barbarian tribal kingdoms, 7 of which were the Genesis to the nations of Europe. It also accurately describes the emergence of another power, clearly Roman because it grows from the Roman head, which under it's influence and authority rooted up the other 3, and became the overall power over the 7.
European history in a nutshell. Starting in 538ad when the Goths gave up their siege of Rome, giving the bishop there his autonomy to rule as a judge of heretics and appoint bishops (as per Justinian's decoration) thus becoming head bishop, later known as Pope,, until 1798 when the Pope was captured by Napoleon's representative and taken into exile where he died. Thus the beast received it's mortal head wound. The union of church and state in Europe came to an end. 1260 years of papal supremacy over the consciences and minds of Europe.
That head wound though is now healing. 1928 the healing began with Mussolini. The Vatican, now a city state and the Pope a king. But Europe was never enough. Now it's the world. And the apostate protestant church will be the power to give the Catholic Church it's long hoped for dream of global hegemony.
See? Prophecy is so much more interesting and accurate than encyclopedias.

 

[Illuminator]

You dont think all the warnings and even the warnings in the revelation had no merit to the first ones? @Illuminator that who people forget about.

I think people who abuse Revelation to bash Catholicism are spiritually and mentally sick. The first 37+ popes were killed by pagan Romans, a fact CENSORED by Whore-duh-babble-on psychos.

That now today, people who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who died, was buried in resurrected, you be able to become a child of God, by dying with Christ, and being raised again with Christ in the newness of life, with your spiritual life now and him being born again, becoming part of the kingdom of heaven, becoming a child of God, become a son or a daughter of God, all because Jesus Christ makes you right with him whenever you are having faith and trust in him to help you in your life and praying and asking him questions to help you to go in the right direction and not the wrong direction.

What if I told you the Catholic Church teaches the same thing?

 

[MatthewG]

@Illuminator i dont care about the catholic church.

The church chrisitans belong to is the one that involves the heavenly Kingdom of Jerusalm in the hearts of believers who desire to worship God in spirit and truth, being adopted by the Father whom gives the spriit by faith in the gospel whoch is the power of God unto salvation.


No need for a material church in my best estimation; the need of faith is however because God is only pleased by an individual whom has faith, towards him wilingly if thet desire; they have the ability to ask God to help them over come their failures but to realize that when they do fail, they shouldnt give up and continue to go to God and seek help, and have fellowship with Father and the son by reading and hearing the word of God, and studying the topics found.

The spirit is primary.
The bible is secondary and refriential in my opinion.

 

[Illuminator]

@Illuminator i dont care about the catholic church.

The church chrisitans belong to is the one that involves the heavenly Kingdom of Jerusalm in the hearts of believers who desire to worship God in spirit and truth, being adopted by the Father whom gives the spriit by faith in the gospel whoch is the power of God unto salvation.

Do you consider Catholics excluded from this?

No need for a material church in my best estimation; the need of faith is however because God is only pleased by an individual whom has faith, towards him wilingly if thet desire; they have the ability to ask God to help them over come their failures but to realize that when they do fail, they shouldnt give up and continue to go to God and seek help, and have fellowship with Father and the son by reading and hearing the word of God, and studying the topics found.

The spirit is primary.
The bible is secondary and refriential in my opinion.

How did we get a Bible in the first place without a material church? Can't you see the folly of your logic???

 

[MatthewG]

No there is no folly is the logic of considering the church bride of christ was in the heart. Jesus was correcting the pharisess all the time for the religiousity. Jesus through the narrative of the gospel, taught about a bride he would come back to get, which would be pure and blameless as Paul wrote in Ephesians.

The material church - was formed to keep religon on going in my opinion, to play church? When church when the temple came down and the God divorced israel and married the new bride which was all heavenly based is now in tact.


Considering reborn spiritually in christ,
Becoming part of the heavenly kingdom when you have a new heart found for God to worship him in spirit and truth,
To have relationship with God being adopted into the family of believers becoming a child of God with the ability to grow into a son or daughter of God,
At the end of life for loving God and loving others, in faith God will reward one greatly individually, and all will be given a body that is suitable for them to live in,
And there are rewards that happen now today in life which may be overcoming the darkness of the heart to have love by the spirit in asking God to help you, which santification and mortify the flesh helped by the spirit, with The hope had is that one day leaving this life there is a much better one,

And all peope are said to be resurrected being inside or outside of the kingdom of the heavenly realm.



This is just what i personally
Believe is true friends.

 

[Behold]

@Illuminator
The bible is secondary and refriential in my opinion.

Jesus studied the Bible His entire life.
He preached the word, which is the Bible..

His disciples were real students of the Bible.

Examples.....

1.) When Jesus went into the Temple, and used a whip to drive out the money changers.....>His Apostles were watching Him do it.

They "remembered the verse that said..>"the ZEAL OF THINE HOUSE HAS EATEN ME UP">. Psalm 69:9

So, they were students of the word., and not just fishermen and tax collectors.


Notice...

2.) The day Christ proclaimed His Divine Authority to the Jews, He was reading the Bible, out-loud in a synagog.


3.) When SATAN came to Jesus, after Jesus fasted for over a month, = Jesus only responded to the Devil, with the BIBLE VERSES.

"It is WRITEN"
"it is WRITTEN".
"It is Written".

So that is GOD using the BIBLE on the DEVIL.

Listen, never think that Bible is just ......."yawn"., as if you dont learn that word, correctly, you are underwater and you will drown in the sea of double mindedness and confusion, and doctrines of devils.

 

[MatthewG]

My encouragement is to read the word @Behold. Did you ever find the verse where God promised to have the devils head crushed?

The bible is useful, but it holds no authority, and no authority does any man hold over the spiritual things.

God is the one whom is authority, and if one submits to him, and learns and grows in faith will be rewarded and God will be pleased.

Praise be!

 

[Illuminator]

No there is no folly is the logic of considering the church bride of christ was in the heart.

No, but that doesn't answer the question. To oppose a material church that gave us a material Bible is self defeating.

Jesus was correcting the pharisess all the time for the religiousity. Jesus through the narrative of the gospel, taught about a bride he would come back to get, which would be pure and blameless as Paul wrote in Ephesians.

A 'pure and blameless' Paul was talking about is the Church Triumphant in heaven. The Church on earth is full of sinners and hypocrites. To erect a kind of "Berlin Wall" between the two is a man made tradition. There is only ONE Bride.

The material church - was formed to keep religon on going in my opinion, to play church? When church when the temple came down and the God divorced israel and married the new bride which was all heavenly based is now in tact.

Sorry, God didn't divorce Israel, He fulfilled it in the Church He established.

 

[MatthewG]

Idk it seems as though a pure and blameless one was being raised up,

Please consider

What Paul wrote to the people in Ephsus,

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

If you read the passage, it was something that he was doing. He was making himself a church that the gates of hell will not prevail against and Satan hell death sinwould all be over come.

You could say assembly it doesn’t really matter if you say church or not, these people gather together, and they prayed to God, and they admitted their love for God and Jesus Christ, and they died for their witness, and they experienced tribulations and hardships unimaginable to a lot of today’s standards when you think about it.

 

[Illuminator]

Idk it seems as though a pure and blameless one was being raised up,

Agreed. To be in the pure and blameless Church you have to be physically dead and with God in heaven. Then you can be 100% infallibly assured of salvation, NOT BEFORE.

Please consider

What Paul wrote to the people in Ephsus,

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

bible.com

The historic Church has always been aware of these verses.
The Holy Catholic Church teaches, through Scripture and Tradition, that the husband is the head of his family and has God-given authority over his wife and children. This gift of authority does not give a husband any greater dignity than his wife. Both are equal members of the marital covenant, as is reflected by God creating woman from the side of man (as opposed to his head or feet). Instead, this order of authority reflects the divine order between God, Christ and man. God blessed the marital covenant with this order to maintain peace and harmony in the family, the “domestic church.” Just as Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church (the family of God), so the father is the head of his domestic church (his family).

1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

If you read the passage, it was something that he was doing. He was making himself a church that the gates of hell will not prevail against and Satan hell death sin would all be over come.

Jesus told Peter the gates of hell will not prevail. Paul gets his authority from both Jesus and Peter, but Peter and Paul taught the same Gospel. They were not competitors and had no power struggles.

You could say assembly it doesn’t really matter if you say church or not, these people gather together, and they prayed to God, and they admitted their love for God and Jesus Christ, and they died for their witness, and they experienced tribulations and hardships unimaginable to a lot of today’s standards when you think about it.

Yes, and we can identify some of the martyrs of the 2nd and 3rd century by name so I think you have a problem.

 

[Illuminator]

Idk it seems as though a pure and blameless one was being raised up,

Please consider

What Paul wrote to the people in Ephsus,

‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

bible.com

The Ephesians received some interesting things as well, in the previous chapter.

Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”​

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that.

www.catholic.com

 

[MatthewG]

Like i said its up to believe what you want about it.


I keep in to context; Paul wrote to Ephusus -> there is notion of Apostolic rulership of this church that pervailed and was taken and established an never ending kingdom.

I did not take time to read your comments @Illuminator

 

[Illuminator]

Again, find primary source evidence of an emperor telling the Pope what to teach on matters of faith and morals, or get off your "Catholic Roman Empire Church" bandwagon.

 

[MatthewG]

Apostolic rule would pertain to only those who seen the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Illuminator]

Apostolic rule would pertain to only those who seen the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

What is the biblical definition of "Apostolic"?

Why establish an office (Peter, in effect, was made the prime minister of the Church by Jesus, as the exegesis of the “keys of the kingdom” establishes, with much Protestant exegetical support), only to have it cease with the death of Peter? That makes no sense. The very nature of an office is to be carried on; to have a succession. One doesn’t start a business, e.g., with a president, and then after the first president dies, the office ceases to exist and everyone is on their own. His former office is made into a lounge . . .

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)​

Ephesians 19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,​

Read full chapter

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

 

[MatthewG]

I would say the whole new testament is the apostolic record @Illuminator. And the new testament is the new covenant where God writes his laws on the hesrts and minds that are his.

 

[MatthewG]

Idk why you keep bring catholic stuff up idc what they have to say @Illuminator

 

[MatthewG]

As a side note idc what denomination a person is from but idk have to agree with anything that “organization has to believe”