What is the one true Church?

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Grailhunter

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Complete and provable lie but i have come to realize you are not interested in the truth

I said, There were no Bishops in 107 AD….
You are telling me I am lying....I am going to need an extra dose of patience for you people! Lord help me! But I have to say, were your parents too stupid to teach you manners, or were you too stupid to learn. Do you want me to teach you manners? Stop calling people liars!

This is so simple I do not understand why you cannot grasp it.....use both hands!
Why didn't Christ and Apostles drive around in 4 wheel drive fords?
Why didn't Christ and Apostles use the internet to spread the Gospels?
If some one back then told some one to go talk to the Bishop.....they would not know what they were talking about.
They did not talk English back then!
Overseers were not the same thing as we understand Bishops to be today. The term does not relate.
The desire to call people back then Bishops and Popes is false. An attempt to try to get people to believe the Catholic Church and its infrastructure of organization existed back then. And that is false.
 
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Grailhunter

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I found your essay:

1. Does the church have ministers who can forgive sins in the name of Jesus (John 20:21-23)?
If you are saying that a person can get their sins forgiven without asking for forgiveness, I would disagree. But here He is talking to the Apostles.
2. Does the church have a healing rite for the dying that forgives the sins of the person who is dying (James 5:14-15)?
I will never forget the time Father Flanagan told me that he was going to give me my last rites....I reached out and gripped his hand and said, is that the grip of a dying man? Last rites I believe in....even if the person is unconscious.
3. Does the church meet daily for the breaking of the bread ( Matthew 6:11, Acts 2:42-46)?
The daily breaking of bread relates to meals, not the bread and wine ritual.
4. Does the church teach that you must physically eat the flesh of Jesus and drink His blood to have life in you (John 6:53)?
Believe this 100%
5. Does the church history date back to the time of the Apostles (Acts 1:20-26)?
Christian congregations date back to the apostles, the Catholic Church does not.
6. Does the church teach that individuals can suffer for the sake of the church, because Christ’s sufferings were lacking (Colossians 1:24)?
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am supplementing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions in behalf of His body, which is the church. I agree Paul said this. And dealing with you people I can say it too. There is no doubt that Christians suffered, They have suffered all through history. On the other had if you think Christianity is a religion of suffering, I disagree. If you think that Christ gets some sort of satisfaction from Christians suffering, I disagree. But...but there were groups that believed this.

Flagellants....The ritual of voluntary self-flogging or flogging each other goes back to the middle of the thirteenth century. After the Black Death tore through Europe, flagellation became so widely and fervently practiced that in 1349 Pope Clement VI condemned the practice.

There were people back then and today (Opus Dei) that wear torture devises underneath their clothing.

I think it is a very morbid belief. But I think Satan would like it. Beat those Christians!


7. Does the church teach that salvation isn't a sure thing (Matthew 10:22, 2 Peter 2:20)?
Agree
8. Does the church teach that prayers in heaven go through heavenly intercessors before reaching God (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3)?
Good luck with Revelation.....it is a topic on it own. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:9 My prayers go straight to Christ....
9. Does the church teach that saints in heaven are alive and can appear to humans? (Mark 9:4-5, Matthew 27:52-53)
The Transfiguration....alive? Did the scriptures say they were alive. Define alive? Did they appear from Heaven or did they appear from Sheol? Personally, I believe that Miriam and the Apostles exist in spiritual form and I believe they are in Heaven. The Protestants do not.

10. Does the church teach that one must physically suffer to keep from losing one’s salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Peter 2:19-21)?
No! These scriptures do not say you have to suffer to be saved or to keep from losing one's salvation.
11. Does the Church preach Christian unity, or division (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)?
Unity would always be better. The Catholic Church ruined all possibility of that.
12. Are the church's decisions ratified in heaven as well as on earth (Matthew 18:18)?
Again He was talking to congregations....no church back then. And now we have thousands with different options. Then again if you are a member of any church their decisions do count. But now a days most of these disagreements are settled in civil courts.
13. Is the Mother of Jesus considered to be the most blessed Woman, and do they call her blessed (Luke 1:42-48)?
Hail Mary, Full of Grace, The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death. Glory Be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Amen. Pray and talk to her everyday.
14. Does the church teach that the church itself (rather than the Bible) is the pillar and bulwark of truth? (1 Timothy 3:15)
Again the Bible cannot refer to the Catholic Church. Again the word church does not appear in the scriptures...congregations....
15. Does the church teach that the whore of Babylon is a "great city" where Jesus Christ was crucified? (Revelation 11:8 and Revelation 17:18).
Like I said, good luck with Revelation.....Christ was crucified in Rome....And no I do not consider the Roman Empire as Babylon....Babylon was Babylon....The Roman Empire befriended Christianity and became Christian....we be Gentile Christians.
16. Does the Church teach that celibacy is a good thing? (Matthew 9:12, Luke 18:29-30, 1 Corinthians 7: 25-27, 1 Corinthians 7:32-38, Revelation 14:3-5).
This is a long topic. The Bible does not show a focus on the family? Why? Marriage was more or less given up as a concession. Why?

Not taking the circumstances into consideration caused a lot of false beliefs and misery. They believed they were living in the last days, not months, not years, not centuries....Christ was suppose to return very soon and the persecutions were starting up, why have a family in the middle of all that. So Christianity...and not just Catholics developed a hatred for sex and women...ergo the witch-hunts. The early church fathers preached horrible things about women and marriage. The priority at the time was spreading the Gospel and getting people saved. As it turned out there was plenty of time. As it turns out, now a days celibacy is irrelevant.

17. Does the Church teach that life begins at conception? (Deuteronomy 30:19, Jeremiah 1:5, Psalm 139:13, Luke 1:43-44,Luke 23: 2).
Metaphors. When does goo turn into a baby? That is a debate. When does goo have ears?
18. Does the Church teach that contraception is intrinsically evil? (Genesis 1:28, Psalm 127:3-5, Genesis 38:8-10).
The Bible does not address contraception. The meaning of the story of Onan and Tamar is not about contraception....coutis interruptus...
The story was about Onan's hatefulness and violation of the Mosaic Law.

19. Does the Church teach that divorce and remarriage is adulterous? (Matthew 5:3, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18)
Christ was talking to Jews who could had several wives. He was talking about the Mosaic Law. A letter of divorcement (which was a law that Christianity did not adopt.) He was telling them if they divorce their wife they could not marry again. But if they had five wives they still had four wives. And if you notice even at that it shocked the Apostles. Back then divorcing a woman was almost a death sentence.

But things have changed and the Protestant churches do not persecute the divorced or the remarried. One of many things that have changed for the good. Women can be equal members in Christ. We do not support slavery. We have wedding ceremonies.

20. Does the Church teach that good works are a very necessary component of our faith? (Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:26, Colossians 1:10, Matthew 7:21, Revelation 20:12-13, Romans 2:6.
Agree
21. Does the Church teach that Jesus Christ established his earthly Kingdom on earth before He was crucified? (Matthew 3:2, Matthew 16:19).
It depends on what you consider a kingdom?
22. Does the Church teach sexual sins are transgressions that will keep one from gaining entry into heaven, or do they now say that they are no longer sinful? (Romans 1:24-32, 1 Timothy 1:9-10, Ephesians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5).
Do nuns and Priest have sex? Stop being stupid. Sexual promiscuity is wrong. But then you have to define sexual promiscuity and what it is, what it is not, it has got a little skewed because of the false beliefs. The Bible Old or New Testament does not require a wedding ceremony to be married. For that reason if a couple falls in love and have sex before or after a wedding ceremony it does not constitute a sin.

But then you have the standard stuff....casual sex....prostitutes and prostitution, homosexuality, adultery, and last but not least child molestation.
 
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Grailhunter

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And how did they handle their disagreements Grailhunter? Think about it….
The Apostles were not in agreement either.
There were Jewish Christians....mostly the twelve Apostles
And there were Gentile Christians....there were differences.
 

GRACE ambassador

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From the words of a good old protestant hymn...
My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand:
all other ground is sinking sand.
I was praying and hoping for (not disagreement, but for) some positive and wonderful words on this amazing Sunday day of worship of The LORD and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Thanks @Brakelite:innocent:
 
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Illuminator

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I said, There were no Bishops in 107 AD….
You are telling me I am lying....I am going to need an extra dose of patience for you people! Lord help me! But I have to say, were your parents too stupid to teach you manners, or were you too stupid to learn. Do you want me to teach you manners? Stop calling people liars!
OK. I won't call you a liar. Just oblivious to every commentary, lexicon, Bible study manual, concordance and encyclopedia in the world and grant yourself the authority to say weird things like There were no Bishops in 107 AD o_O
This is so simple I do not understand why you cannot grasp it.....use both hands!
Why didn't Christ and Apostles drive around in 4 wheel drive fords?
Why didn't Christ and Apostles use the internet to spread the Gospels?
If some one back then told some one to go talk to the Bishop.....they would not know what they were talking about.
They did not talk English back then!
Overseers were not the same thing as we understand Bishops to be today. The term does not relate.
The desire to call people back then Bishops and Popes is false. An attempt to try to get people to believe the Catholic Church and its infrastructure of organization existed back then. And that is false.
It took the Bible nearly 4 centuries to come into full bloom. That is an example of DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE. But you are unwilling to examine the development of the papacy within that same time frame. So if you reject the development of the Bible, that frees you up to reject every other development, like the papacy, church government and whatever else you like to argue about. You couldn't care less what the Church teaches and you mock what you refuse to understand.

Prooftexting apostolic succession (objector in blue)

[Choosing Matthias to replace Judas was] maintaining the symbolism of the Twelve after Judas defected. . . . there can’t be more or less than Twelve at a time. . . . The Twelve is a closed number. Judas was replaced to maintain the symbolism. By definition, you can’t extrapolate from a closed number (the Twelve) to an indefinite number beyond twelve at a time. The Twelve constitute a self-contained unit. There can only be changes within that unit. [p. 168]

The twelve disciples are also called “apostles” (Mt 10:2; Rev 21:14). There are more apostles than twelve (e.g., St. Paul). So much for this argument. But there’s more:

Luke 10:1 the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.

The classic Protestant commentators (automatically rejected by pope Grailhunter) acknowledge these as further “disciples” and they seem to be called “disciples” in Luke 10:23 too. Benson Commentary states that “He . . . sent out seventy of his disciples” and “It is remarkable that our Lord assigns the same reason for the mission of the seventy which he had assigned for the mission of the twelve disciples.” Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers refers to “the seventy disciples.” So does Matthew Henry. and Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary. Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible states that “besides the twelve, whom he chose and called out, from among the multitude of the disciples, and ordained them apostles, he selected and ordained seventy others.” Meyer’s NT Commentary adds:

That Jesus in general had around Him a larger circle of constant disciples, besides the Twelve, from whom He could appoint seventy for a special commission, is in itself, and from the evidence of such passages as Acts 1:15; Acts 1:21, 1 Corinthians 15:6, as well as John 6:60, not to be doubted.
My argument, then, is that neither “disciples” nor “apostles” are confined in the Bible to twelve people alone (though there is definitely a strong sense of “the [original] twelve”). Acts 6:1 states that “the disciples were increasing in number.” Hays’ argument that the original twelve always had to be twelve falls flat as a result. We even see the seventy disciples doing the exact same sorts of evangelistic things that the original twelve did. Matthias is an example of true apostolic succession in the Bible. Since Protestants reject apostolic succession, Hays had to find some sort of way to discount that, and this desperate answer is what he came up with:

You then play a shell game by switching from that to apostles appointing elders, as if that flows out of the appointment of Mathias. But that’s categorically different. [p. 168]

continued
 

Illuminator

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You then play a shell game by switching from that to apostles appointing elders, as if that flows out of the appointment of Mathias. But that’s categorically different. [p. 168]

It is a different category, but this is sanctioned in the passage itself, since Luke cites Psalms 108:8 in Acts 1:20: “His office let another take.” The Greek for “office” is episkopé (Strong’s word #1984): the word for “bishop” and the root of “episcopal.” Thayer’s Greek Concordance writes about its use in this passage:

c. after the analogy of the Hebrew פְּקֻדָּה (Numbers 4:16; 1 Chronicles 24:19 (here the Sept. ἐπίσκεψις), etc.), oversight i. e. overseership, office, charge; Vulg. episcopatus: Acts 1:20, from Psalm 108:8; specifically, the office of a bishop (the overseer or presiding officer of a Christian church): 1 Timothy 3:1, and in ecclesiastical writings
In KJV, it’s translated “bishoprick” at Acts 1:20 and “bishop” at 1 Timothy 3:1. This clinches the case for apostolic succession from the Bible itself, since Judas was in effect called a bishop or elder, and this is the office that Matthias would assume, and which would be perpetual throughout Church history. The cognate episkopos (Strong’s word #1985) is defined by Strong (with obvious Protestant bias — not wanting to say the word “bishop”), as “overseer, supervisor, ruler, especially used with reference to the supervising function exercised by an elder or presbyter of a church or congregation.”

That’s still quite sufficient, however, to make the argument for apostolic succession. The word appears five times in the NT. KJV translates it as “bishop(s)” four out of five times, and “overseer” in the remaining appearance. If we consult English translations for 1 Timothy 3:2, which has episkopos, we see that bishops is used 26 times in one particular listing, while “overseer” also appears 26 times, “leader” eight times, and “elder” twice. No problem for the Catholic and larger “episcopal Church government” view. “Overseer” and “leader” are synonyms for “bishop” anyway.
continued
 

Illuminator

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Moreover, Acts 1:25 states that Matthias would “take the place in this ministry . . . from which Judas turned aside.” The word there is diakonia (Strong’s word #1248): from which deacon derives (Acts 1:17 applies the same word to Judas, too). It’s usually translated “ministry” in English translations, and the same word is applied to Christian work of non-apostles (e.g., Acts 6:4; 1 Cor 12:5: “varieties of service”; 1 Cor 16:15: “the household of Stephanas . . . have devoted themselves to the service of the saints”).

No transfer of office. To the contrary, the Twelve is, in the nature of the case, a self-enclosed numerical unit. You can’t legitimately expand from that to more than twelve at a time. [p. 168]

As I already proved, the Bible and Jesus — contrary to Pope Steve Hays III — did indeed do that (both “disciple” and “apostle” are applied to many more people than the original “twelve”). Hence, in John 6, when Jesus teaches Real Presence in the Eucharist, the “proto-Protestants” who had followed Him couldn’t handle that and left Him (“After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” — John 6:66: an appropriate number for such apostasy!). This is immediately opposed to the twelve, since the next verse states, “Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Do you also wish to go away?’ ” Again, none of this refutes the biblical reasoning for apostolic succession. It’s just grasping at straws.

The fact that each of the Twelve might be classified as an apostle doesn’t imply that all apostles are disciples in the exclusive sense of the Twelve. [p. 169]

We agree, but it still doesn’t rebut our argument for apostolic succession, which I made above, and which Hays (as so often) seems blissfully unaware of.

But Catholics don’t think there’s a permanent apostolic office with successive incumbents. They don’t think apostolic succession means one apostle succeeding another apostle. Rather, they think bishops in union with the pope are the true successors to the Apostolate. . . . apostolic succession involves a shift from apostles to bishops. Different principle. Replacing one apostle with another apostle isn’t any kind of precedent for replacing an apostle with a bishop. [p. 170]

Precisely as I showed through biblical Greek words (transfer from apostles to bishops and deacons and elders . . . There was only one Apostle Paul, too, yet he appears to pass on his office in some sense to Timothy:

2 Timothy 1:6, 11, 13-14 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; . . . [11] For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, . . . [13] Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; [14] guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.
2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2 Timothy 4:1-2 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: [2] preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching.
Hays was obviously unfamiliar with the entire classical argument from Matthias for apostolic succession. He never delved into the relevant Greek words. I did. My argument was thoroughly, deeply biblical; his was only biblical in a superficial, “surfacey” sense and a mere knee-jerk false tradition of men. We see this again and again in anti-Catholic polemics. They pick-and-choose. We go deep and incorporate all relevant cross-references. I have many more articles on this topic (with additional arguments):

Apostles Became Bishops (Apostolic Succession) [1997]
*
Biblical Arguments for Apostolic Succession [9-9-09]
*
Dialogues on Various Biblical Arguments for Apostolic Succession [1-5-17]
*
Apostolic Succession: More Biblical Arguments [1-6-17]
*
Apostolic Succession as Seen in the Jerusalem Council [National Catholic Register, 1-15-17]
*
Apostolic Succession: Reply to Certain Misconceptions [7-1-20]
*
Answers to Questions About Apostolic Succession [National Catholic Register, 7-25-20]
*
A New Biblical Argument for Apostolic Succession [National Catholic Register, 4-23-21]
*
“New” Apostle Matthias: Proof of Church Infallibility [12-31-21]
 

Grailhunter

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OK. I won't call you a liar. Just oblivious to every commentary, lexicon, Bible study manual, concordance and encyclopedia in the world and grant yourself the authority to say weird things like There were no Bishops in 107 AD o_O
I know a lot of people think that the early Christians spoke English...LOL....Why not, it is good language.....Peter said, Here is the keys to my Cadillac and go see the Bishop......I have a Fleetwood Mac CD in the player, enjoy!....watch out for state troopers I hear they have radar setup.

It took the Bible nearly 4 centuries to come into full bloom. That is an example of DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE. But you are unwilling to examine the development of the papacy within that same time frame. So if you reject the development of the Bible, that frees you up to reject every other development, like the papacy, church government and whatever else you like to argue about. You couldn't care less what the Church teaches and you mock what you refuse to understand.
Is the Bible in "full bloom?"
I do not reject the development of the Bible.
Why don't you summarize the history of the Bible and I will correct you when you are done.

Choosing Matthias to replace Judas was] maintaining the symbolism of the Twelve after Judas defected. . . . there can’t be more or less than Twelve at a time. . . . The Twelve is a closed number. Judas was replaced to maintain the symbolism. By definition, you can’t extrapolate from a closed number (the Twelve) to an indefinite number beyond twelve at a time. The Twelve constitute a self-contained unit. There can only be changes within that unit. [p. 168]

The twelve disciples are also called “apostles” (Mt 10:2; Rev 21:14). There are more apostles than twelve (e.g., St. Paul). So much for this argument. But there’s more:

Luke 10:1 the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.

The classic Protestant commentators (automatically rejected by pope Grailhunter) acknowledge these as further “disciples” and they seem to be called “disciples” in Luke 10:23 too. Benson Commentary states that “He . . . sent out seventy of his disciples” and “It is remarkable that our Lord assigns the same reason for the mission of the seventy which he had assigned for the mission of the twelve disciples.” Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers refers to “the seventy disciples.” So does Matthew Henry. and Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary. Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible states that “besides the twelve, whom he chose and called out, from among the multitude of the disciples, and ordained them apostles, he selected and ordained seventy others.” Meyer’s NT Commentary adds:
Apostolic succession ended around the 1st century....nothing in the Catholic Church called Apostles, because they would not dare do that because they would be laughed at.

My argument, then, is that neither “disciples” nor “apostles” are confined in the Bible to twelve people alone (though there is definitely a strong sense of “the [original] twelve”). Acts 6:1 states that “the disciples were increasing in number.” Hays’ argument that the original twelve always had to be twelve falls flat as a result. We even see the seventy disciples doing the exact same sorts of evangelistic things that the original twelve did. Matthias is an example of true apostolic succession in the Bible. Since Protestants reject apostolic succession, Hays had to find some sort of way to discount that, and this desperate answer is what he came up with:

You then play a shell game by switching from that to apostles appointing elders, as if that flows out of the appointment of Mathias. But that’s categorically different. [p. 168]
Talk about a shell game.....I never said that.

Hays was obviously unfamiliar with the entire classical argument from Matthias for apostolic succession. He never delved into the relevant Greek words. I did. My argument was thoroughly, deeply biblical; his was only biblical in a superficial, “surfacey” sense and a mere knee-jerk false tradition of men. We see this again and again in anti-Catholic polemics. They pick-and-choose. We go deep and incorporate all relevant cross-references. I have many more articles on this topic (with additional arguments):
I guess you need to go argue with Hays? And there is no Greek word for bishop. It is a scam. The concept of Bishop, Cardinal, and Pope are modern....what they are, what they do...the imagery.....the office....the administration....the TV appearances..
 
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Marymog

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The Apostles were not in agreement either.
There were Jewish Christians....mostly the twelve Apostles
And there were Gentile Christians....there were differences.
Are you serious? Acts 15? Council of Jerusalem? They weren't in agreement? Show me in scripture when they weren't in agreement and I will join your denomination.
 

Marymog

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I said, There were no Bishops in 107 AD….
You are telling me I am lying....I am going to need an extra dose of patience for you people! Lord help me! But I have to say, were your parents too stupid to teach you manners, or were you too stupid to learn. Do you want me to teach you manners? Stop calling people liars!

This is so simple I do not understand why you cannot grasp it.....use both hands!
Why didn't Christ and Apostles drive around in 4 wheel drive fords?
Why didn't Christ and Apostles use the internet to spread the Gospels?
If some one back then told some one to go talk to the Bishop.....they would not know what they were talking about.
They did not talk English back then!
Overseers were not the same thing as we understand Bishops to be today. The term does not relate.
The desire to call people back then Bishops and Popes is false. An attempt to try to get people to believe the Catholic Church and its infrastructure of organization existed back then. And that is false.
You make zero sense.......
 

Marymog

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sometimes I wonder why I even comment so, may people learn and may we digress towards the spirit and say



hey


I love you


and all we know is God will judge our heart.



If you are in need of encouragement hit me up, ill do what I can.
I ALWAYS wonder why you comment.....
 

Grailhunter

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Are you serious? Acts 15? Council of Jerusalem? They weren't in agreement? Show me in scripture when they weren't in agreement and I will join your denomination.
By "weren't in agreement" I mean various differences and in how to practiced the Way.....Christianity.

1. The Council was called to come to an agreement. If they were already in agreement there would have been no need for a meeting.
2. The Jewish-Christians which was the 12 apostles and Jewish converts, practiced a Jewish form of Christianity that still centered on the Temple and parts of the Mosaic Law. (Now there is more to the story with Peter, where as he basically switched camps.)
3. Jewish-Christians worshiped at the temple and offered sacrifices.
4. Jewish-Christians continued to observe the Saturday Jewish Sabbath.
5. Jewish-Christians worshiped at the Temple where as Gentile-Christians formed congregations in homes.
6. The Jewish-Christians required circumcision.
7. The Jewish-Christians observed Jewish customs like polygamy and where the fathers picked their daughter's husbands and received money for delivering a virgin daughter. The Catholic Church put an end to this around the turn of the millennium.
8. The Jewish-Christians would not associate with Gentile-Christians because they were not circumcised. The background on this is the disagreement between Peter and Paul. Which means of course that the Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians would not worship together. Which is the big physical distinction between the two beliefs.
9. The Jewish-Christians focused on Yahweh where as the Gentile-Christians focused on Yeshua. The Jewish-Christians referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. For example...James 1:1 James a bond-servant of God....and....of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Illuminator

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I know a lot of people think that the early Christians spoke English...LOL....Why not, it is good language.....Peter said, Here is the keys to my Cadillac and go see the Bishop......I have a Fleetwood Mac CD in the player, enjoy!....watch out for state troopers I hear they have radar setup.


Is the Bible in "full bloom?"
I do not reject the development of the Bible.
Why don't you summarize the history of the Bible and I will correct you when you are done.

A Visual Diagram of the History of the New Testament Canon

Sources for the visual diagram are all Protestant, but since you are anti-Protestant, you won't accept that either.
Apostolic succession ended around the 1st century....nothing in the Catholic Church called Apostles, because they would not dare do that because they would be laughed at.


Talk about a shell game.....I never said that.


I guess you need to go argue with Hays? And there is no Greek word for bishop. It is a scam. The concept of Bishop, Cardinal, and Pope are modern....what they are, what they do...the imagery.....the office....the administration....the TV appearances..
You have your own definition of words that make no sense, your own private doctrines no one ever heard of before. That's why you cannot be reasoned with. You are your own pope in a church of one. You have no pastor, no messianic rabbi, you accept no one with an education, reject historical facts and continue to rant your absurd opinions. A waste of screen space.
 

Grailhunter

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Sources for the visual diagram are all Protestant, but since you are anti-Protestant, you won't accept that either.
I am anti-Satan and anti-false beliefs.
But I am tolerant about some false beliefs because all denominations have them. In order to worship with many denominations I have to be tolerant of ignorance.....ignorance as in lack of knowledge or misinformed. Most people believe in false beliefs out of lack of knowledge and or they are misinformed....but this is a big topic.

I have spent my whole life in pursuit of the truth, that is why I call myself Grailhunter and my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. When I started this as a child....I knew that the truth was all that mattered and getting that truth out so that Christians would have the opportunity to see it and for those that God thought were worthy, he could touch their heart to look into it.

That is my ministry and mission….It is not my job or concern for people to believe me….that is between them and God. Makes for a lot less stress and distraction from what is important.

I am not anti-protestants, I am a theologian….I love the Catholics and the Protestants, I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Mormons, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish friends from the time I was a kid.

95 percent of the time when I am in a church, I am in a Protestant church. My preference is the Holy Ghost churches, not because their theology is any more accurate then anyone else’s, but it is the spirit of the church and the interaction with the Holy Spirit as well as the sincere worship of God.

As far as the history of the New Testament Canon...
The English word canon comes from the Greek κανών kanōn, meaning "rule" or "measuring stick". The use of the word "canon" to refer to a set of religious scriptures was first used by David Ruhnken, in the 18th century.
It is more of a history of Christianity.

A lot of texts written before the 4th century and with Christian beliefs varying between individuals and "churches" it was more like what region believed what. That is what we know.....hard to nail it down. There were those that wrote about what they believed, but no guarantee that what they wrote was the belief of the majority of Christian peoples.

Now keeping in mind the cost and talent required to reproduce accurate copies, this took time. Before the Ecumenical Councils there was a list of favorites and various regions had other favorites too. They were not called a Canon back then. List of favored texts. The Canon we have now was a list of favored texts that was widely agreed upon.
 
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Grailhunter

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You have your own definition of words that make no sense, your own private doctrines no one ever heard of before. That's why you cannot be reasoned with. You are your own pope in a church of one. You have no pastor, no messianic rabbi, you accept no one with an education, reject historical facts and continue to rant your absurd opinions. A waste of screen space.
All along I have called you people on using modern terms and words that did not exist back then.
These modern terms and words have different meaning, imagery, and church infrastructure that did not exist back then.
The intent is dishonesty.....attempting to suggest that the Catholic Church as we know it today existed in early Christianity.
It is all fantasy if you honestly believe it....sorry.
 

Illuminator

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The intent is dishonesty.....attempting to suggest that the Catholic Church as we know it today existed in early Christianity.
It is all fantasy if you honestly believe it....sorry.
C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:

The very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power . . . of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them.
(God in the Dock, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, 44-47)
The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples:
  • doctrines of the afterlife,
  • the Trinity,
  • the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son),
  • the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament),
  • the equality of Jews and Gentiles,
  • bodily resurrection,
  • sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc.
Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

And books such as Barnabas and 1 and 2 Clement were considered Scripture by many at the same time (for example, the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus). Of the 27 New Testament books, 14 were not mentioned at all until around 200 A.D., including Acts, 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Colossians.

On what grounds, then, can we receive the Canon today except on the authority of the Church in the 5th century? These facts cause insuperable problems for Protestantism and its guiding principle of “Scripture Alone,” but are not a difficulty in the least for Catholics, who believe in Tradition, Church Authority, and development – all crucial elements in the very human process of selection of the biblical Canon.

It is plain silly (not to mention insufferably arrogant) to assert, as did Luther and especially Calvin, that the knowledge of what books constitute Scripture is attained simply by an intuitive and subjective inkling within each Spirit-filled person. If the early Church had such a difficult time determining what was and was not Scripture, how could Calvin 15 centuries later claim that it was altogether simple for him and every other sincere Christian?!

The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph. 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed which grows into a tree (Mt. 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and Doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning. It is impossible to claim that no development occurred in Church history, or that it ceased after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century, etc. (all arbitrary human traditions). The Bible is not absolutely clear in every part, and requires the developing wisdom of the Church.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” doomed to be increasingly corrupted by an encroaching, “diabolical” Catholicism, as is imagined by millions of Protestants unacquainted with the early Church and the oldest source materials after the New Testament, such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (d.c. 110) and St. Clement of Rome (d.c.101).

John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), the great English convert to Catholicism, who is widely regarded as one of the most profound religious thinkers of his time, wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1845), the one indispensable work on this subject:
One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
(Introduction 5, 6)

The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of Original Sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.

Protestants falsely argue that Purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original Sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If Purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then Original Sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if Original Sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must Purgatory be accepted.

Thus Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism. Protestant anti-Catholic apologists are notorious for searching for quotes by Church Fathers which appear to support their presuppositions, while bypassing those (often by the same Father) which clearly suggest the Catholic outlook. I did this myself in the year before I was convinced of the truth of Catholicism.

Newman states, in summary:

If it be true that the principles of the later Church are the same as those of the earlier, then, whatever are the variations of belief between the two periods, the later in reality agrees more than it differs with the earlier, for principles are responsible for doctrines. Hence they who assert that the modern Roman system is the corruption of primitive theology are forced to discover some difference of principle between the one and the other; for instance, that the right of private judgment was secured to the early Church and has been lost to the later, or again, that the later Church rationalizes and the earlier went by faith.
(Ibid., ch. 7, section 6: conclusion)
continued...
 
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Illuminator

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By and large, Protestantism merely asserts “sola Scriptura” without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these “Catholic” doctrines than Protestants suppose.

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments.
The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.
source
 

Brakelite

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C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:


The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples:
  • doctrines of the afterlife,
  • the Trinity,
  • the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son),
  • the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament),
  • the equality of Jews and Gentiles,
  • bodily resurrection,
  • sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc.
Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

And books such as Barnabas and 1 and 2 Clement were considered Scripture by many at the same time (for example, the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus). Of the 27 New Testament books, 14 were not mentioned at all until around 200 A.D., including Acts, 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Colossians.

On what grounds, then, can we receive the Canon today except on the authority of the Church in the 5th century? These facts cause insuperable problems for Protestantism and its guiding principle of “Scripture Alone,” but are not a difficulty in the least for Catholics, who believe in Tradition, Church Authority, and development – all crucial elements in the very human process of selection of the biblical Canon.

It is plain silly (not to mention insufferably arrogant) to assert, as did Luther and especially Calvin, that the knowledge of what books constitute Scripture is attained simply by an intuitive and subjective inkling within each Spirit-filled person. If the early Church had such a difficult time determining what was and was not Scripture, how could Calvin 15 centuries later claim that it was altogether simple for him and every other sincere Christian?!

The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph. 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed which grows into a tree (Mt. 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and Doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning. It is impossible to claim that no development occurred in Church history, or that it ceased after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century, etc. (all arbitrary human traditions). The Bible is not absolutely clear in every part, and requires the developing wisdom of the Church.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” doomed to be increasingly corrupted by an encroaching, “diabolical” Catholicism, as is imagined by millions of Protestants unacquainted with the early Church and the oldest source materials after the New Testament, such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (d.c. 110) and St. Clement of Rome (d.c.101).

John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), the great English convert to Catholicism, who is widely regarded as one of the most profound religious thinkers of his time, wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1845), the one indispensable work on this subject:
One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
(Introduction 5, 6)

The bulk of Newman’s extraordinary work is devoted to the exposition of a series of analogies, showing conclusively that the Protestant static conception of the Church (both historically and theologically) is incoherent and false. He argues, for example, that notions of suffering, or “vague forms of the doctrine of Purgatory,” were universally accepted, by and large, in the first four centuries of the Church, whereas, the same cannot be said for the doctrine of Original Sin, which is agreed upon by Protestants and Catholics.

Protestants falsely argue that Purgatory is a later corruption, but it was present early on and merely developed. Original Sin, however, was equally if not more so, subject to development. One cannot have it both ways. If Purgatory is unacceptable on grounds of its having undergone development, then Original Sin must be rejected with it. Contrariwise, if Original Sin is accepted notwithstanding its own development, then so must Purgatory be accepted.

Thus Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism. Protestant anti-Catholic apologists are notorious for searching for quotes by Church Fathers which appear to support their presuppositions, while bypassing those (often by the same Father) which clearly suggest the Catholic outlook. I did this myself in the year before I was convinced of the truth of Catholicism.

Newman states, in summary:


continued...
The development of doctrine within the Catholic Church can be likened to what children know as Chinese whispers. What we have today emanating from Rome is so far removed from the original intent of the inspired word of God as to be barely recognizable, if recognisable at all. Yet this didn't develop recently, it has been a slow process, like boiling a lobster. Those being simmered in the pot along with the false "developments" did not realize what was happening, until the scriptures were made more available to the general populace that Truth may be revealed as it is, and not what it is not.