What is the one true Church?

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ChristisGod

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Hmmm....So Scripture says baptism SAVES you....but baptism isn't salvific?????????????

Abiding in Jesus and Jesus abiding IN us is not salvific??????


salvific defined: having the intent or power to save or redeem
abiding defined: enduring
The question become which baptism ? Spirit or physical water ?
 

Marymog

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God is pleased by faith. A truth, well known by many.
Not true.

If He was pleased by faith and faith alone Scripture would only say "have faith in me and you will be saved". That would make for a VERY SHORT BIBLE. There are MANY MANY more passages that tells us what we MUST do to be saved.

Keeping it real....Mary
 

Marymog

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The question become which baptism ? Spirit or physical water ?
Either one you choose Christophany. The passage I was referring to (1 Peter 3:21) speaks of water baptism. Sooooo lets start with that:

Is water baptism salvific?

Patient Mary
 

MatthewG

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Not true.

If He was pleased by faith and faith alone Scripture would only say "have faith in me and you will be saved". That would make for a VERY SHORT BIBLE. There are MANY MANY more passages that tells us what we MUST do to be saved.

Keeping it real....Mary
“By faith Enoch was translated — not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to — that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭YLT98‬‬


Are you sure God pleased by other things? Or is just faith he finds pleasing?
 

Michiah-Imla

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Answer my question (which was first) and I will answer yours

That’s not the biblical way.

Follow the example set forth by Jesus our Lord:

“…I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.” (Mark 11:29)
 

Grailhunter

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I get the gist of what you are saying but even in the "biblical era" The Church had issues with false prophets and division when the Apostles were alive. That is the purpose of some of the letters in the NT, to address that division amongst the faithful. Around the year 107AD, just a few short years after the Apostle John died, Ignatius (a student of John) wrote letters to various Churches telling them to listen to their bishop and wherever the bishop is, there is the catholic church. Sooooo there was division is 107AD also!
Lord knows I have a lot of patience with Catholics.....God love em! But historians, they are not. The Mormons have things going on with South America that is like science fiction....and I still love them too.

There were no Bishops in 107 AD and the Catholic Church did not exist, except as a concept....Christianity was a universal church to the world.
Five hundred years ago the Protestant Revolution started MAJOR divisions in Christianity. Sure, there was some division before that but historically I think we can agree it grew quickly/faster after Martin Luther. Some men broke off from Luther and the faithful started following/believing the teachings/writings/doctrines of those Revolutionaries and how THEY interpreted Scripture. Those Revolutionaries all disagreed with each other on that interpretation which caused further divisions in Christianity and created more....what you call....denominations.
Correct....but was the alternative?

Logically/historically we know that there was only One Church with One Teaching and One Doctrine that all those denominations split off from.
This is incorrect.

That One Church/Teaching/Doctrine came from the Apostles.
The Apostles were not in agreement either

When one goes back to Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp (all of whom were STUDENTS of the Apostles) and look at their writings/teachings one can see that The Catholic Churches teachings mirror their teachings. As one progresses thru Christian history timeline one can see that The Church continues to adhere to those teachings, traditions in the year 2023.
These early Christian overseers were teaching good stuff....But they probably would not have butchered and burnt people. Teaching vs the application of Christianity, to be a leader or prominent and respected "Church" you have to do both.

The Catholic people in the pews were always good, and the Modern Catholic Church is better than it has ever been. But it still has a ways to go before it is a leader among other denominations. And that is what they need to focus on....not their past.

You choose to follow the teachings (interpretation of Scripture) of the men from the Protestant Revolution who were NOT Students of the Apostles. Your "denominations" timeline begins 500 years ago? I am not sure of this since you, to the best of my knowledge, have not told me what denomination you belong to!!
Sorry that you got that impression.....I do not belong to a denomination....I am a theologian. I associate with, and love, and stand and worship with Christians. I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Mormons, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish friends from the time I was a kid. And as it turns out my favorites are the Holy Ghost churches....not that their theology is completely correct...but rather how they worship and apply Christianity.

The term "true church" is a misnomer. My ministry I call the Johnny Appleseed of truth has been a lifelong study and quest. The truth is that the Catholics do not have it right nor do the Protestants. But do they love God and love one another? These are the basic applications of Christianity and a lot of them are struggling to wrap their heads around just that basic concept. Then do they do their best to be good and do good deeds, another set of basics? Do they come together to worship the Lord with all their heart? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling....You really have not taken your first step on your journey until you get these basics down pat.

I have an essay that I wrote back in the 80's, I need to find that.....it was about what to look for in a church. When I find it I will post it.
 
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Illuminator

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Its impossible to please God but by faith @Marymog.
Marymog is well aware of that, but her point is that baptism is salvific, "faith" is another discussion, and so is "faith alone".
Luther agreed with the Catholic teaching of baptismal regeneration, Calvin did not.

If the matter is so crystal-clear, solely by consulting Scripture, then why are Protestants so hopelessly divided on the matter?

We find, of course, that baptismal regeneration was a unanimous position among the Church fathers [link one / two / three / four]. It’s illuminating to also consult the Church fathers to see how they interpreted particular passages. In the first link we can see that several interpreted John 3:5 precisely as Catholics today do (baptismal regeneration): Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Lactantius, Basil the Great, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Augustine, and John Damascene.

Surely, this is noteworthy. How could so many great teachers of Christianity in the early Church get it totally wrong? Protestants go ultimately by Scripture alone, yet both Luther and Calvin claimed that their views were closely aligned with that of the fathers, and more so than Catholicism.
 
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MatthewG

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It's just what the writer of hebrews wrote, @Illuminator.

Either it is true, or it is false.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You know this really makes me thankful, because it doesn't teeter on being just being a good fellow - though as Christians we should be lead by the spirit - it remains that our flesh can be hostile (at least in my own case).

It has me going to God letting him know how much of an
asshole
I can be, and be straight with him, and ask him to continue to work with me, without judgement.

Love that it is about faith. And us reaching out to God, our Father whom has adopted us - in faith.

And I believe he finds pleasure in this, which is why he is a rewarder of those who continue to diligently seek him.
 

MatthewG

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It's just what the writer of hebrews wrote, @Illuminator.

Either it is true, or it is false.



You know this really makes me thankful, because it doesn't teeter on being just being a good fellow - though as Christians we should be lead by the spirit - it remains that our flesh can be hostile (at least in my own case).

It has me going to God letting him know how much of an
asshole
I can be, and be straight with him, and ask him to continue to work with me, without judgement.

Love that it is about faith. And us reaching out to God, our Father whom has adopted us - in faith.

And I believe he finds pleasure in this, which is why he is a rewarder of those who continue to diligently seek him.


I guess that is also why the writer to the Jewish people, Hebrews - also wrote in their letter to them.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
 

Illuminator

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I guess that is also why the writer to the Jewish people, Hebrews - also wrote in their letter to them.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
It is impossible to please God without faith, I am in total agreement with that. But you are mixing faith with baptism. They are two different topics. Baptism is salvific, and was unanimously taught by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Lactantius, Basil the Great, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Augustine, and John Damascene. It didn't take long for Protestantism to be divided on the matter, since Calvin disagreed with Luther. It's not so much disagreement with the salvific nature of baptism, it's that Protestants are all over the map with what baptism is supposed to mean.
  1. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration,
  2. Calvin to symbolic infant baptism.
  3. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism.
  4. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ).
  5. A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army.
  6. Then there is the latest innovation: spiritualized water, or reading the Bible is the same as water baptism.
It's the tower of Babel all over again, with groups of Protestants speaking different languages. I think those great teachers who taught consistently and unanimously for several centuries got it right, until Calvin came along.

The Catholic Church accepts most Protestant baptisms as valid, but few want to talk about why that is and what unites us. Just more division.
 
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MatthewG

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I dont think so. You would have to have faith to go to God i think, but maybe i am wrong. I usally am known to be. But anyway, have a good day.

Good bye.
 

MatthewG

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It is impossible to please God without faith, I am in total agreement with that. But you are mixing faith with baptism. They are two different topics. Baptism is salvific, and was unanimously taught by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Lactantius, Basil the Great, Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Augustine, and John Damascene. It didn't take long for Protestantism to be divided on the matter, since Calvin disagreed with Luther. It's not so much disagreement with the salvific nature of baptism, it's that Protestants are all over the map with what baptism is supposed to mean.
  1. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration,
  2. Calvin to symbolic infant baptism.
  3. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism.
  4. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ).
  5. A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army.
  6. Then there is the latest innovation: spiritualized water, or reading the Bible is the same as water baptism.
It's the tower of Babel all over again, with groups of Protestants speaking different languages. I think those great teachers who taught consistently and unanimously for several centuries got it right, until Calvin came along.

The Catholic Church accepts most Protestant baptisms as valid, but few want to talk about why that is and what unites us. Just more division.

You know @amigo de christo, @Illuminator,

Here is the way i see it.

John the baptist told the crowd and pharisees around him, that the baptism they were looking for was from the one whom baptises in the holy spirit and fire.

This can happen to people who do not “ontologically” know who jesus is.

You may disagree.


But this is how i see it, people who are born, in other counteies who may be muslim, hindu, buddist, and

A individual seeks out God, reaching out to the one whom “Created” them, they can be baptised, in tbe holy spirit and fire without really knowing Christ.

While the information you gave histrocally, @Illuminator i dont think it really matters in the end, when the end result that muslim, that hindu, or that buddist, or whatever - and individual who seeks out God in faith, will be rewarded for seek him out, and they are rewarded by being lead by the spirit.


Some say hell no! You need to know everything in that bible to be saved and even say the name Jesus to be saved….


Well the name jesus over there is probably something different.


Anyway idk why i wanted to post this hut hope it draws some clarity.


It was John the baptist that pointed out, it is he that comes baptising in the holy spirit and fire which one should seek for, and God being more powerful than a book.


I believe he can even work in groups of people who may not know God by the aspects of the bible, but God knows whom is seeking him, and they will love God and love others — even if they may attend their religous matters.

As in the bible you have christians going to sacrfice even after jesus died and raised,


Can one disqaulify them as being saved? I dont think anyone can judge but God who is looking at the inward heart.

Not the knowledge or how intellegent one may be, but at the heart.

Is the heart dawning for God and dawing to love their neighbor?

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”


@amigo de christo i believe its only christ, some can know him without knowing him they love by seeking God in faith. But its not the organized religion that saves. Alwayz will be jesus, the only way to the Father. I truly believr God is able to make other christians by rewarding then with the spirit. Even they may not fully understand, just they seek him out and find rest for their souls.
 
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amigo de christo

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You know @amigo de christo, @Illuminator,

Here is the way i see it.

John the baptist told the crowd and pharisees around him, that the baptism they were looking for was from the one whom baptises in the holy spirit and fire.

This can happen to people who do not “ontologically” know who jesus is.

You may disagree.


But this is how i see it, people who are born, in other counteies who may be muslim, hindu, buddist, and

A individual seeks out God, reaching out to the one whom “Created” them, they can be baptised, in tbe holy spirit and fire without really knowing Christ.

While the information you gave histrocally, @Illuminator i dont think it really matters in the end, when the end result that muslim, that hindu, or that buddist, or whatever - and individual who seeks out God in faith, will be rewarded for seek him out, and they are rewarded by being lead by the spirit.


Some say hell no! You need to know everything in that bible to be saved and even say the name Jesus to be saved….


Well the name jesus over there is probably something different.


Anyway idk why i wanted to post this hut hope it draws some clarity.


It was John the baptist that pointed out, it is he that comes baptising in the holy spirit and fire which one should seek for, and God being more powerful than a book.


I believe he can even work in groups of people who may not know God by the aspects of the bible, but God knows whom is seeking him, and they will love God and love others — even if they may attend their religous matters.

As in the bible you have christians going to sacrfice even after jesus died and raised,


Can one disqaulify them as being saved? I dont think anyone can judge but God who is looking at the inward heart.

Not the knowledge or how intellegent one may be, but at the heart.

Is the heart dawning for God and dawing to love their neighbor?
anyone who hears the gospel and denies JESUS CHRIST will be damned mathew .
Only the SPIRIT of anti christ would teach this new age all path to GOD LIE .
Rather odd that paul and every other apostel we read about went about PREACHING to the lost the DIRE NEED to believe on CHRIST .
TODAY folks rather heed lies of men who are doing all to silence the true gospel which saves .
You can think all day mathew . But the TRUTH will always be easily found and seen in the scriptures .
Oprah wimphrey , IS NO CHRISTAIN . SHE cliams to be one . BUT SHE PREACHES death . A Lie that cannot save
the lost . She openly states before all , THERE IS NO NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS . She is a liar and the dauhter of it .
She aint alone either . THE RCC and many in the protetant realm are buying the lie now .
BETTER preach JESUS CHRIST my friend . NEVER give a man false hope in his false dead end religoin .
Rather preach CHRIST . NOW if he rejects , MOVE ON . we cant MAKE them believe .
BUT we ought to tell them the truth and not let them believe the lie of their own false religoin .
 
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MatthewG

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I dont even think you gave my post a chance really @amigo de christo now im mad you and i think ill just put you on ignore.

It gets so annoying to hear your rattling. Its like a hissing snake ready to strike down any hope anyone has.

Hope you learn sir! Read and consider… at least…
 

MatthewG

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@amigo de christo it would be a total different story if i was saying



There is no need to believe in jesus

Or the bible is useless throw it away!

Or you dont need to have faith in God.

Or its better to do wrong to your neighbor, get revenge!

Wouldnt it?


Hope you consider what i wrote cause it pertains to INDIVIDUALs who seek God (doesnt matter what region they are from!)

God is known by creation!!
 

Jim B

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Would it not depend upon the individual and his walk with and his calling from God? How much authority does God have over you and me during our allotted time here in the flesh? Only as much as we give Him. Many times, I believe, God or His Son, is knocking on a man's door wanting to come into that man's heart, but too often the man declines to open the door. He wants to continue traveling his own way for his own purposes. God wants to have the authority over the man, but He will NOT force His way inside of us. We must invite Him. When we have extended the invitation by opening our heart [the door] to Him then we have given the authority back to God. Of course, when allotted runs out [time of natural death] we have then the reward we have chosen when we chose NOT to open unto Him.

To kill [mortify] the deeds and ways of the flesh, we need help. God provides the help to those who sincerely ask of Him and surrender themselves to His authority. The help is through the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Without Him we can do nothing... that is nothing in accord with God's will.


2co 3:5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2co 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If a person surrenders his own will completely to God's, then the authority is God's in us. How many people actually do that? Anyone who sincerely surrenders in part does it in part, but how many have surrendered as completely to God as did Jesus? Again, the question, how much like Him can we become. Consider what John wrote here:


1jo 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

But first go back to what Paul wrote here:

1co 13:9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1co 13:10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When is that which is perfect come to you or to me or to anyone else? Could it be when we have finally and completely surrendered our own will to God's will?


If we give it all that we have continuously, perhaps then God will take up the slack, since our own efforts alone cannot bring us to the goal:


Mr 10:26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mr 10:27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Great post!
 
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Jim B

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Do you need a bishop, or a overseer as someone you can confide in and trust, @Marymog

Curious matthew.


Idc if people go to catholic church or not. It doesn't make them anymore christian than the next person who is willingly to show a person agape love with no judgement.
Great post!