What is the one true Church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Patrick1966

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2022
3,551
1,735
113
Orlando, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Even Peter himself referred to Jesus as the cornerstone.

1 Peter 2:7-9 ESV
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,997
3,438
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I always thought that God/Jesus were THE rocks, foundation, and cornerstone. It's my understanding that Peter IS a rock along with the other disciples.
Ephesians 2:20-22 esv

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[a] the Spirit.
In Rev. 21, we see the New Jerusalem, which is the Church coming down from Heaven.
Verse 14 tells us that there are 12 foundations – and on each foundation, the name of each of the 12 Apostles.

Peter is ALWAYS listed as “Protos” – FIRST among the Apostles – even though he was NOT the first chosen. This is a perfect correlation to Matt. 16:18.

In Isaiah 22, we see an OT type of Peter in Eliakim, who God has appointed with the keys to the House of David in an almost verbatim prefiguring of Jesus and Pete’s exchange.

Isaiah 22:20–22 - In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.


Matt. 16:18-19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,997
3,438
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Gen 28:20-21 . . Jacob then made a vow, saying: If God remains with me,
if He protects me on this journey that I am making, and gives me bread to
eat and clothing to wear, and if I return safe to my father's house-- The Lord
shall be my god.

What did Jacob say? The Lord wasn't his god up to that point? Not
necessarily. It wasn't uncommon in those days for people to dabble in other
gods right along with Jehovah. The practice was later strictly forbidden by
the first of the Ten Commandments.

Ex 20:1-3 . . And God spoke all these words: I am The Lord your god, who
brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other
gods in my sight.

"in my sight" is a combination of two Hebrew words that essentially refer t
Jehovah's competitors. In other words: it is not God's wishes to have a
market share of His people's devotion; no, He'll settle for nothing less than
100%. (cf. Mark 12:28-30)

Ex 20:5 . . I, The Lord thy God, am a jealous God

Webster's defines "jealous" as intolerant of rivalry and/or unfaithfulness.

Jacob's uncle Laban was notorious for polytheism. On the one hand, he
recognized Jehovah as a legitimate deity (Gen 24:50, Gen 31:29) while on
the other hand he harbored a collection of patron gods in his home (Gen
31:19, Gen 31:30). In the ancient Semitic world; patron gods were
equivalent to Catholicism's patron saints-- objects of devotion; venerated as
special guardians, intercessors, protectors, and/or supporters; viz: alternate
sources of providence.

Jacob's vow reflects a personal decision of his own volition to make The Lord
the sole source of his providence to the exclusion of all the other gods that
people commonly looked to in his day. So Gen 28:20-21 could be
paraphrased to read like this:

"If God remains with me, if He protects me on this journey that I am
making, and gives me bread to eat and clothing to wear, and if I return safe
to my father’s house-- Jehovah shall be my only patron."

So, although I didn't worship Jesus' mom and the patron saints during the
24 years I was a Catholic from infancy, nevertheless, I practiced polytheism
just like uncle Laban because of my devotion to God's competitors rather
than narrowing the field down to just the one benefactor like Jacob did.

Anyway; that was a very important milestone for Jacob; and it's a very tall
obstacle for John Que and Jane Doe pew warmer to overcome because most
of them feel far more comfortable looking to after-market providers such as
Christ's mom and departed saints rather than looking to God only.


FAQ: What about Rev 5:8 where it talks about the prayers of the saints.
Doesn't that indicate they pray for us?


REPLY: Even if Rev 5:8 did indicate that departed saints pray for people
down here on the earth, it doesn't eo ipso indicate it's okay for people on the
earth to reciprocate with prayers either to them or for them.

However, when that passage in Revelation is read with care, it's easily seen
that the prayers in question are not the active prayers of saints; but rather,
archived prayers.

Rev 5:8 . . And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the
twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they
were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the
saints.

You see, the bowls in that passage are already full; strongly suggesting that
those particular prayers were prayed in this life; not in the next; and it also
indicates that no new prayers will fit in the bowls because they are already
to capacity.

The details of the prayers in those bowls aren't stated; so it would be purely
conjecture to allege they're intercessory prayers. It's likely the current
prayers of departed saints are for justice and vindication. (e.g. Rev 6:10)
_
We've ALREADY established that "Pray" simply means to ASK, to ENTREAT, to SUPPLICATE to a fellow human being. This is the primary definition. It is legal, juridical language that is used in court documents and police reports.
It is in THIS sense that Catholics "Pray" to the saints in Heaven to petition them to pray FOR us. There is no "worship" of anybody other than GOD Himself.

The secondary definition involves worship, adoration, supplication or thanksgiving to God.

In 1 Cor. 12, {aul explains that we are ALL members of the Body of Christ - and that ALL of the parts need each other.

The onus is on YOU to produce a verse of Scripture that states that those in Heaven in the presence of Almighty God have been kicked out of the Body of Christ.
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
So, although I didn't worship Jesus' mom and the patron saints during the
24 years I was a Catholic from infancy, nevertheless, I practiced polytheism
just like uncle Laban because of my devotion to God's competitors rather
than narrowing the field down to just the one benefactor like Jacob did.

Anyway; that was a very important milestone for Jacob; and it's a very tall
obstacle for John Que and Jane Doe pew warmer to overcome because most
of them feel far more comfortable looking to after-market providers such as
Christ's mom and departed saints rather than looking to God only.
There you go again, Weber, taking cheap shots against the Church based on 24 years of warming pews. Saint's are not God's competitors. They don't "narrow the field". One would think that a man of your age would be wise enough not to fall for such stupid conclusions. The doctrine of the Communion of Saints is not polytheism, that's Ku Klux Klan theology. It's time you grew up.
 
Last edited:

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Patrick:
I always thought that God/Jesus were THE rocks, foundation, and cornerstone.
No disagreement there.
It's my understanding that Peter IS a rock along with the other disciples.
Peter, whose Aramaic name was Simon bar Jonah, was the only disciple whom Jesus changed his name to "Cephas", which means ROCK, and it stuck throughout the NT. Jesus didn't change any other disciples' name anywhere in the Gospels. Paul uses Peter's name "Cephas" 6 times. Why would Paul use an Aramaic name to Greek speaking communities? Why not Petros??? Is every Bible in the world wrong?

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 – for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people’s names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.

Ephesians 2:20-22 esv

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[a] the Spirit.
That is not contested either.
2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 – in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,712
498
83
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then religion that came out of Rome was the same religion that came out of Jerusalem after the death of John. "they were never his"??? Seriously???
"they were never his" when the Church refuted Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
"they were never his" when the Church refuted the Arian heresy in 325?
"they were never his" when the Church refuted Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)?
"they were never his" when the Church refuted Pelagianism (5th Century)
"they were never his" when the Church refuted Nestorianism (5th Century)

Tell us, Kiew, what year did the historic Church separate from Itself?

Catholics and Protestants are united by virtue of the Trinity. There is no escape. Anti-trinitarians are by default, anti-Protestant.
They as well threw Jesus away-Rev war, civil war, ww1, ww2 and allowed the young men to stand on both sides killing each other, they even did that for Adolf Hitler. Meanwhile prayed to the same God on both sides and told both sides God was with that side.
The real Jesus=Love, peace and unity-- not throw it away because a govt says its ok.
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,712
498
83
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He absolutely did.
Matt 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

If it "goes away" - then it succumbs.
It is here now. Otherwise this wouldn't be a bible truth-Daniel 12:4-- only here in these last days did truth become abundant, that means it wasn't abundant up until the last days. False teachers started getting in in Peters book, Titus had to be left behind to correct error teachings that were getting in. It only got worse. Until these last days.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He absolutely did.
Matt 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

If it "goes away" - then it succumbs.

There is no error quite as serious as extracting a small part of Scripture to "prove" doctrine!

Matthew 16:16-24, "Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.” Then he instructed his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and experts in the law, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. So Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him: “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me."

Jesus never called anyone else but Peter "Satan"!!! And after calling him "this rock" He also said that he had become a stumbling block. And of course you realize that "this rock" denied knowing Jesus three times and wept with shame at his betrayal!

Give glory to God and His Son Jesus Christ, not to some fallible Christ-denier!
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It is here now. Otherwise this wouldn't be a bible truth-Daniel 12:4-- only here in these last days did truth become abundant, that means it wasn't abundant up until the last days. False teachers started getting in in Peters book, Titus had to be left behind to correct error teachings that were getting in. It only got worse. Until these last days.
Titus corrected 1st and 2nd Peter? That makes no sense. How old are you???

I like Daniel too.

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. That should give the Book of Daniel crowd serious pause.

1679784798099.jpeg

You wanna talk about false teachers?

Matt 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

False version:
And so I say to you, you are Pebble, and upon Me I will build my temporary church, and the gates of the netherworld shall prevail against it because the warranty expires on my junk church 1500 years from now.

If it "goes away" - then it succumbs.
If it "goes away" why is there absolutely NO RECORD of such an earth-shaking event that no one noticed for 15 centuries? That's so far from logical it's a joke.

Sorry if I made you think for yourself.
 
Last edited:

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,712
498
83
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Titus corrected 1st and 2nd Peter? That makes no sense. How old are you???

I like Daniel too.

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession. That should give the Book of Daniel crowd serious pause.

View attachment 30770

You wanna talk about false teachers?

Matt 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

False version:
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon Me I will build my temporary church, and the gates of the netherworld shall prevail against it because the junk church built will need a rebuild.
I didnt say Titus corrected Peters books. The book of Titus says Titus was left behind to correct error teachings that were getting in. Peter had to correct error teachings that were getting in in his books.
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I didnt say Titus corrected Peters books. The book of Titus says Titus was left behind to correct error teachings that were getting in. Peter had to correct error teachings that were getting in in his books.
I confess. I'm a grammar Nazi.
 

Webers_Home

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2012
4,709
767
113
80
Oregon
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.
Mark 14:35-36 . . He advanced a little and fell to the ground and prayed
that if it were possible the hour might pass by him. He said; “Abba, Father"

The bulk of the New Testament is translated from manuscripts penned in
Greek. But the word "abba" isn't translated from Greek: in point of fact, it
isn't translated at all; it's the actual word; viz: a transliteration.

Abba (ab-bah') is an Aramaic word that means "father" the same as the
Greek word pater (pat-ayr') means father; except that abba means father in
a special sense. It isn't just a noun; it's a filial vocative.

For example: when I'm puttering around out in the garage, and my son and
his mother are in the kitchen talking about me, the noun "dad" is merely a
label that informs my wife who my son is talking about. But when my son
wants to get my attention and calls out: "Dad!" then the same noun
becomes a filial vocative.

Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

That verse reveals something very important. The Spirit of His son always
compels Christ's believing followers to call out to his Father, never to his
mother, and the reason for that is actually quite simple. Christ always prays
to his Father; never to his mother; ergo: the Father's children exhibit the
very same behavior because the Spirit of His son compels them to pray like
His son.

That, by the way, is a pretty good litmus test. If somebody is comfortable
praying to Jesus' mom, they give away the fact that they lack the Spirit of
God's son in their hearts; which means of course that they have yet to
undergo adoption into His family circle.

Rom 8:15 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to fear;
but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

The Bible instructs Christ's believing followers to pray in the Spirit (Eph
6:18, Jude 1:20). When people pray in the Spirit; they pray in accordance
with Mark 14:35-36, Gal 4:6, and Rom 8:15. In other words: they don't pray
to Mary and/or angels and departed saints; no, they pray to the Son's Father
just as he did.

Bottom line: God's kin should feel an overwhelming compulsion to pray to
their adoptive Father without their having to be told to. It should come
naturally (so to speak), just as naturally as it came to Jesus. And they
should feel an equally overwhelming disgust for praying to somebody else.

So then, people with a habit of praying to Jesus' mom and/or angels and
departed saints; obviously have neither the spirit of God's son in their heart,
nor the spirit of adoption; and that is a very serious condition to be in.

Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
_
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,997
3,438
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is here now. Otherwise this wouldn't be a bible truth-Daniel 12:4-- only here in these last days did truth become abundant, that means it wasn't abundant up until the last days. False teachers started getting in in Peters book, Titus had to be left behind to correct error teachings that were getting in. It only got worse. Until these last days.
If the Church "went away" in the early days, as YOU say - YOU wouldn't evena HAVE a Bible.
It was the Catholic Church that declared the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century. It didn;'t just "nagically" appear.

Christ's Church IS here - and has BEEN here for 2000 years - YOUR complete lack of faith, notwuthstanding . . ..
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
.
Mark 14:35-36 . . He advanced a little and fell to the ground and prayed
that if it were possible the hour might pass by him. He said; “Abba, Father"

The bulk of the New Testament is translated from manuscripts penned in
Greek. But the word "abba" isn't translated from Greek: in point of fact, it
isn't translated at all; it's the actual word; viz: a transliteration.

Abba (ab-bah') is an Aramaic word that means "father" the same as the
Greek word pater (pat-ayr') means father; except that abba means father in
a special sense. It isn't just a noun; it's a filial vocative.

For example: when I'm puttering around out in the garage, and my son and
his mother are in the kitchen talking about me, the noun "dad" is merely a
label that informs my wife who my son is talking about. But when my son
wants to get my attention and calls out: "Dad!" then the same noun
becomes a filial vocative.

Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

That verse reveals something very important. The Spirit of His son always
compels Christ's believing followers to call out to his Father, never to his
mother, and the reason for that is actually quite simple. Christ always prays
to his Father; never to his mother; ergo: the Father's children exhibit the
very same behavior because the Spirit of His son compels them to pray like
His son.

That, by the way, is a pretty good litmus test. If somebody is comfortable
praying to Jesus' mom, they give away the fact that they lack the Spirit of
God's son in their hearts; which means of course that they have yet to
undergo adoption into His family circle.

Rom 8:15 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to fear;
but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

The Bible instructs Christ's believing followers to pray in the Spirit (Eph
6:18, Jude 1:20). When people pray in the Spirit; they pray in accordance
with Mark 14:35-36, Gal 4:6, and Rom 8:15. In other words: they don't pray
to Mary and/or angels and departed saints; no, they pray to the Son's Father
just as he did.

Bottom line: God's kin should feel an overwhelming compulsion to pray to
their adoptive Father without their having to be told to. It should come
naturally (so to speak), just as naturally as it came to Jesus. And they
should feel an equally overwhelming disgust for praying to somebody else.

So then, people with a habit of praying to Jesus' mom and/or angels and
departed saints; obviously have neither the spirit of God's son in their heart,
nor the spirit of adoption; and that is a very serious condition to be in.

Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
_
Another diabolical rant, twisting and distorting the biblical Mary.

Catholic Doctrine of Mary: Introductory Biblical Guide​

Mother of God

The ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431 declared Mary the Mother of God (Greek, Theotokos) in order to safeguard the divinity of Christ, which was being attacked by the Nestorians, a heretical group which had recently arisen. Since Christ was God in the flesh (Col 2:9; Jn 1:1,14), Mary is the Mother of God the Son. Both Luther and Calvin (along with all the major Protestant founders) agreed. But she is a creature, like us, and is not worshiped in Catholicism as a sort of goddess. She is venerated due to the unfathomable honor of having been chosen to bear and raise the incarnate God.

(does Weber accept the title?)

Mary’s Immaculate Conception

Catholics believe that God saved Mary in a special way, preventing her from sin, because of her extraordinary role and proximity to God the Son and Holy Spirit (Lk 1:35). An angel called Mary highly favored or full of grace in Luke 1:28. The Greek word, kecharitomene, means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” On this and other grounds, Catholics hold that she was free of sin from conception and throughout her life. Even Luther agreed! The medieval theologians constructed an interesting word-picture to illustrate how Mary was just as saved as we are (Lk 1:47), yet in a different sense. Imagine a pit in a forest path, representing the quagmire of sin.

All of us are in that pit, wallowing in the mud. But God will pull us out of it and redeem us, provided we are willing. With Mary, God did something different. He never allowed her (unlike us) to fall into this pit. But in both cases, whether through prevention or rescue, it is equally true that it is God alone who saves. Mary is everything she is due to the unmerited, free grace of God, not because of some intrinsic superiority, regarded as originating separately from God.

Ark, Temple, Tabernacle, and Mary


The closer one is to God, the holier one must be (e.g., Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14). God’s presence imparts holiness (1 Cor 3:13-17; 1 Jn 3:3-9). The Jewish high priest entered the “Holy of holies” in the tabernacle or temple only once a year, under pain of death (Lev 16:2-4, 13). The ark of the covenant was so holy only a few could touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Scripture compares Mary to the ark (Lk 1:35 and Ex 40:34-8 / Lk 1:44 and 2 Sam 6:14-16 / Lk 1:43 and 2 Sam 6:9). If mere inanimate objects can be so “holy” due to proximity with God, how much more so Mary, who bore God? Protestants often have difficulty with this conception because of their faulty view of mere external, “legal” justification, which doesn’t necessarily lead to actual, objective holiness.

Mary’s Bodily Assumption

The Assumption is not an arbitrary presumption. It follows from Mary’s sinlessness. Since bodily decay results from sin (Ps 16:10; Gen 3:19), the absence of sin allows for instant bodily resurrection at death (i.e., the Assumption). Mary shared (in a secondary, derivative fashion) in her Son’s victory over sin, death, and the devil (Heb 2:14-15), as foretold in Genesis 3:15. She was the “firstfruits” of Christ’s work on our behalf, which will eventually put an end to death and result in all saints having glorious, incorruptible bodies.

It was proper and appropriate for Mary — since she was the mother of God the Son — to “prefigure” the redeemed world to come by means of both her Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Scripture provides examples of occurrences similar to the Assumption:
  • Enoch (Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5),
  • Elijah (2 Ki 2:11),
  • St. Paul (2 Cor 12:2, 4),
  • the so-called “Rapture” (1 Thess 4:15-17),
  • risen saints after Jesus’ crucifixion (Mt 27:52-3).
It is illogical and unacceptably dogmatic to assert that an event couldn’t have happened because it was not recounted in Scripture. This would be as foolish as saying that Jesus couldn’t have done any miracles other than those we find in the Bible (see Jn 20:30; 21:25). If the Assumption is not that radically different from many other occurrences in Scripture, flows from the interrelated theological notions explicitly found there, and is supported by the testimony of early Christian tradition, it is neither “idolatrous” nor “unbiblical” to believe in it.

The Blessed Virgin Mary

All the Protestant Founders (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) firmly believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity
, but some Protestants since have claimed that Jesus had siblings. The Greek word for “brother,” adelphos, can and does mean many things in Scripture:
  • nationality (Acts 3:17, 22),
  • neighbor (Mt 7:3; 23:8),
  • even all mankind (Mt 25:40).
Several other biblical arguments exist also. No one sought to deny this tradition until the late 4th century, when one Helvidius (whom Calvin called "ignorant") unsuccessfully tangled with St. Jerome.

Mary Our Spiritual Mother and Intercessor

The idea of Mary as the Mother of believers is derived most directly from John 19:26-27, where Jesus tells St. John from the cross to “behold thy mother.” Mary is also Mother and symbol of the Church in Revelation 12:1, 5, 17. Catholics believe that they greatly benefit from Mary’s intercession because of her sinlessness (Jas 5:16). Since Mary is incomparably more alive and holy than we are, to ask for her prayers (Rev 5:8; 6:9-10) is good biblically based “spiritual sense.”

source
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
What is the prophecy from heaven at Fatima and other apparition sites telling us about the current events regarding Russia and Ukraine? Fr. Chris explains what it means according to Church teaching in this episode of Explaining the Faith.

 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
2,712
498
83
66
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If the Church "went away" in the early days, as YOU say - YOU wouldn't evena HAVE a Bible.
It was the Catholic Church that declared the Canon of Scripture in the 4th century. It didn;'t just "nagically" appear.

Christ's Church IS here - and has BEEN here for 2000 years - YOUR complete lack of faith, notwuthstanding . . ..
It was God who preserved his written word. Men deserve 0 credit.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,997
3,438
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no error quite as serious as extracting a small part of Scripture to "prove" doctrine!

Matthew 16:16-24, "Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.” Then he instructed his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and experts in the law, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. So Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him: “God forbid, Lord! This must not happen to you!” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me."

Jesus never called anyone else but Peter "Satan"!!! And after calling him "this rock" He also said that he had become a stumbling block. And of course you realize that "this rock" denied knowing Jesus three times and wept with shame at his betrayal!

Give glory to God and His Son Jesus Christ, not to some fallible Christ-denier!
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

First of all - "Satan" doesn't means the Devil. It simply means "adversary". Peter was making an adversarial comment and Jesus rebuked him for it.
You ARE correct that Jesus doesn’t call anybody else this in the Gospel.

When it comes to Peters – Jesus ALSO never says or does the following to anybody else in Scripture . . .
a. He singles out Peter and gives him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
b. He asks Peter - and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
c. He prays for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).

Sooooo – what’s your point?
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The criteria for determining a true prophet from a false one has never changed since Moses. You can ask yourself six essential questions to determine if a prophet or prophecy is true or false:
  1. Do their words line up with the Bible? (1 John 4:1–3)
  2. Do their proclamations about the future come true? (Deuteronomy 18:20–21)
  3. Do their lives show the fruits of godly character? (Matthew 7:16–20)
  4. Has God revealed Himself to them? (2 Peter 1:20–21)
  5. Does the message inspire godly change? (Ezekiel 13:10)
  6. Does the message mix truth with lies? (2 Peter 2:1–3)
The prophecies of FATIMA meets all six essential questions.

Sister Lucia dos Santos, one of the three children who witnessed the Marian apparitions at Fatima, died in 2005. But before her death, she predicted that the final battle between Christ and Satan would be over marriage and the family.

 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,997
3,438
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It was God who preserved his written word. Men deserve 0 credit.
And it was GOD who appointed those men to guard His Church as well as the Scriptures (Matt. 16L18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) and the entire Holy Deposit Faith .(1 Tim. 6:20).

The Bible didn't just drop out of the sky . . .