Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Right. God didn't need PEOPLE to preserve His written word. It fell from the sky or delivered by space aliens.It was God who preserved his written word. Men deserve 0 credit.
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Right. God didn't need PEOPLE to preserve His written word. It fell from the sky or delivered by space aliens.It was God who preserved his written word. Men deserve 0 credit.
Mark 8:33 –Jim B uses this verse to down play Peter’s authority. That's his point.Time for a Bible Lesson . . .
First of all - "Satan" doesn't means the Devil. It simply means "adversary". Peter was making an adversarial comment and Jesus rebuked him for it.
You ARE correct that Jesus doesn’t call anybody else this in the Gospel.
When it comes to Peters – Jesus ALSO never says or does the following to anybody else in Scripture . . .
a. He singles out Peter and gives him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).
b. He asks Peter - and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).
c. He prays for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).
Sooooo – what’s your point?
A lot of people would like to put on rose colored glasses when they consider the history of their religion.Another diabolical rant, twisting and distorting the biblical Mary.
Catholic Doctrine of Mary: Introductory Biblical Guide
Mother of God
The ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431 declared Mary the Mother of God (Greek, Theotokos) in order to safeguard the divinity of Christ, which was being attacked by the Nestorians, a heretical group which had recently arisen. Since Christ was God in the flesh (Col 2:9; Jn 1:1,14), Mary is the Mother of God the Son. Both Luther and Calvin (along with all the major Protestant founders) agreed. But she is a creature, like us, and is not worshiped in Catholicism as a sort of goddess. She is venerated due to the unfathomable honor of having been chosen to bear and raise the incarnate God.
(does Weber accept the title?)
Mary’s Immaculate Conception
Catholics believe that God saved Mary in a special way, preventing her from sin, because of her extraordinary role and proximity to God the Son and Holy Spirit (Lk 1:35). An angel called Mary highly favored or full of grace in Luke 1:28. The Greek word, kecharitomene, means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” On this and other grounds, Catholics hold that she was free of sin from conception and throughout her life. Even Luther agreed! The medieval theologians constructed an interesting word-picture to illustrate how Mary was just as saved as we are (Lk 1:47), yet in a different sense. Imagine a pit in a forest path, representing the quagmire of sin.
All of us are in that pit, wallowing in the mud. But God will pull us out of it and redeem us, provided we are willing. With Mary, God did something different. He never allowed her (unlike us) to fall into this pit. But in both cases, whether through prevention or rescue, it is equally true that it is God alone who saves. Mary is everything she is due to the unmerited, free grace of God, not because of some intrinsic superiority, regarded as originating separately from God.
Ark, Temple, Tabernacle, and Mary
The closer one is to God, the holier one must be (e.g., Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14). God’s presence imparts holiness (1 Cor 3:13-17; 1 Jn 3:3-9). The Jewish high priest entered the “Holy of holies” in the tabernacle or temple only once a year, under pain of death (Lev 16:2-4, 13). The ark of the covenant was so holy only a few could touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Scripture compares Mary to the ark (Lk 1:35 and Ex 40:34-8 / Lk 1:44 and 2 Sam 6:14-16 / Lk 1:43 and 2 Sam 6:9). If mere inanimate objects can be so “holy” due to proximity with God, how much more so Mary, who bore God? Protestants often have difficulty with this conception because of their faulty view of mere external, “legal” justification, which doesn’t necessarily lead to actual, objective holiness.
Mary’s Bodily Assumption
The Assumption is not an arbitrary presumption. It follows from Mary’s sinlessness. Since bodily decay results from sin (Ps 16:10; Gen 3:19), the absence of sin allows for instant bodily resurrection at death (i.e., the Assumption). Mary shared (in a secondary, derivative fashion) in her Son’s victory over sin, death, and the devil (Heb 2:14-15), as foretold in Genesis 3:15. She was the “firstfruits” of Christ’s work on our behalf, which will eventually put an end to death and result in all saints having glorious, incorruptible bodies.
It was proper and appropriate for Mary — since she was the mother of God the Son — to “prefigure” the redeemed world to come by means of both her Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Scripture provides examples of occurrences similar to the Assumption:
It is illogical and unacceptably dogmatic to assert that an event couldn’t have happened because it was not recounted in Scripture. This would be as foolish as saying that Jesus couldn’t have done any miracles other than those we find in the Bible (see Jn 20:30; 21:25). If the Assumption is not that radically different from many other occurrences in Scripture, flows from the interrelated theological notions explicitly found there, and is supported by the testimony of early Christian tradition, it is neither “idolatrous” nor “unbiblical” to believe in it.
- Enoch (Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5),
- Elijah (2 Ki 2:11),
- St. Paul (2 Cor 12:2, 4),
- the so-called “Rapture” (1 Thess 4:15-17),
- risen saints after Jesus’ crucifixion (Mt 27:52-3).
The Blessed Virgin Mary
All the Protestant Founders (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) firmly believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity, but some Protestants since have claimed that Jesus had siblings. The Greek word for “brother,” adelphos, can and does mean many things in Scripture:
Several other biblical arguments exist also. No one sought to deny this tradition until the late 4th century, when one Helvidius (whom Calvin called "ignorant") unsuccessfully tangled with St. Jerome.
- nationality (Acts 3:17, 22),
- neighbor (Mt 7:3; 23:8),
- even all mankind (Mt 25:40).
Mary Our Spiritual Mother and Intercessor
The idea of Mary as the Mother of believers is derived most directly from John 19:26-27, where Jesus tells St. John from the cross to “behold thy mother.” Mary is also Mother and symbol of the Church in Revelation 12:1, 5, 17. Catholics believe that they greatly benefit from Mary’s intercession because of her sinlessness (Jas 5:16). Since Mary is incomparably more alive and holy than we are, to ask for her prayers (Rev 5:8; 6:9-10) is good biblically based “spiritual sense.”
source
The almighty true God-Jehovah who created all things can easily preserve his written word.Right. God didn't need PEOPLE to preserve His written word. It fell from the sky or delivered by space aliens.
Of course He can, but He didn't use magic to preserve His Written Word. PEOPLE had to hear Him, PEOPLE wrote what He said, PEOPLE were inspired to write, PEOPLE had to discern fake books from inspired ones, and PEOPLE preserved the inspired writings down through the centuries.The almighty true God-Jehovah who created all things can easily preserve his written word.
Yes God uses even the wicked sometimes to accomplish his will. It was God who preserved his written word.Of course He can, but He didn't use magic to preserve His Written Word. PEOPLE had to hear Him, PEOPLE wrote what He said, PEOPLE were inspired to write, PEOPLE had to discern fake books from inspired ones, and PEOPLE preserved the inspired writings down through the centuries.
What you assert amounts to Biblolatry..
Miriam never heard the name "Peter" either.A lot of people would like to put on rose colored glasses when they consider the history of their religion.
But a good part of Christian history was a bloody mess and progressed in a manner that was not graceful.
Her name is Miriam.....Christ never heard the name Mary. An Miriam never heard the word Jesus unless someone sneezed! Christ's name is Yeshua.
We are all born in sin. The essential truth of Origin Sin is found in Romans 5 and in the Psalms. God created Adam and Eve sinless. That's the norm. Being born in sin is not the norm the way God intended. Eve said "NO", Miriam said "yes".Mothers are not born in sin
Is THAT what she told you?and they do not deliver their babies in sin.
Miriam was a virgin until she was "over shadowed" by Yahweh and He begot His real Son.
Then no more a virgin.
She was the Mother of God at the moment of Conception.She was the Mother of a God at the moment Yeshua was born,
Did she tell you that?but she was not Yahweh's mother...the mother of God Yeshua. Two people, Father and Son, the Father begetting the Son.
What did the Divine over shadowing and the carrying of a God inside her and the delivering of a God.....do to her? We do not know what it did to her. It did not leave her a virgin and the term Virgin Mary does not occur in the Bible.
But that does not take away from her.....
People who envision these Marian visitations like to think that, ya know the angels are flapping their wings and harps are playing and church bells are ringing....and the Pope is smiling.
Well I do not think she has ever appeared to a Pope.
Miriam prophesied World War I and II in 1917 with 100% accuracy. Her message (repent and turn to my Son) is the way out, and it ain't just for Catholics.The second time she appeared to me, to showed me the safe way out.... all I could hear was explosions and machine gun fire.
It's in Isaiah 7:14-16 Not the betrothed part.It is not always Marian images, trumpets blowing, and rose petals raining from the sky on a congregation.
And the plan in the beginning did not go gracefully.....Yahweh impregnated a girl that was betrothed. That is adultery according to the Mosaic Law.....a sin that is actually worse than murder, because if someone wanted your wife, they would prefer to kill you, to have her.
No prophecy foretold of that!
Yes, Fatima was rigorously investigated and discerned for years until it was undeniably NOT a scam.The Jewish prophecies of a human Jewish warlord king that would take out their oppressors, establish them as rulers and the Mosaic Law would last forever and be written on everyone's heart.....did not turn out. And the Jews have had to deal with that ever since.
But Miriam has been pretty consistent since the time of her assumption....10....20 thousand Marian visitations....to a hundred thousand people over the centuries, who knows how many, because the Catholic Church will put you through the wringer if you try to prove it.... so many don't.
Miriam, or Mary, which ever feels right, was an ordinary woman with an extraordinary role in God's plan of salvation. She cooked, cleaned, and changed His dirty diapers. She's quite approachable. And totally useless without God's grace.But I am here to tell you that Miriam is spectacular and wonderful and pure love.
Do the Catholics worship her? Well I am not going to split hairs.....if they love her like I do....it is honestly a fine line.
Is she an intercessor between those that believe in her and Christ?
From what she doing and saying, it looks like that is part of her mission..... is to intercede for the faithful.
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Johnny Appleseed of Truth
To be an obedient follower, should I not obey His Command?:Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me."
Yes. But Catholic apologists will tell you that (a) you are delusional, (b) you are misinformed, (c) you hate Catholics, (d) you have no clue what you are talking about (e) quoting directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) is totally irrelevant, and (f) this is the only true Christian church in existence (even the Orthodox are out to lunch).Catholicism was and is far removed from God and his son.
Well, according to this NON_CATHOLIC source, Charles Chiniquy was a con-artist, a womanizing pervert and slandered opponents and his bishop. After his excommunication, he went to the Presbyterian church and they threw him out. The only ones who would publish him (he was desperate for money) were a small group of paranoid fundamentalists with a Ku Klux Klan mentality.Yes. But Catholic apologists will tell you that (a) you are delusional, (b) you are misinformed, (c) you hate Catholics, (d) you have no clue what you are talking about (e) quoting directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) is totally irrelevant, and (f) this is the only true Christian church in existence (even the Orthodox are out to lunch).
But Father Charles Chiniquy -- a Canadian priest from Quebec -- had the inside track on the Catholic Church and he wrote a book about all the errors. The title is "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome".
Yes, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He is also supposed to be your Lord, and no where did He at any time change the day from the 7th to the first. Your human reasoning and presumptions notwithstanding. You do not have a "thus sayeth the Lord" in support of Sunday. This is one debate, for all your bluster, you cannot prevail over. So if Jesus is Lord, why not obey Him? You say, correctly, that the Ten Commandments are still a requirement for the Christian, what authority does anyone have to change them?Jesus encapsulated the heart of this teaching in TWO verses that seems to have eluded SDAs – indeed ALL radical Sabbatarians,
After eating the bread meant for the Temple priests and giving some to his disciples, He said:
Mark 2:27-28
“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”
Paul drives this point home in Col. 2:16-17 – another passage that is always twisted by SDAs
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon OR A SABBATH.
These are a SHADOW of the things to come, but the SUBSTANCE belongs to Christ
The very FIRST mention of the Sabbath in ALL of Scripture is when the Israelites are in the desert Ex 16:23-30. God commands them to take a day of rest and eat what they gathered.
WHAT did they gather? Jesus tells us about that in John 6:
John 6:31-34
“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
Read CAREFULLY what Jesus says next . . .
John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
HE is the entire reason for the Sabbath – and He FULFILLED it with His death and resurrection.
- It was INSTITUTED for the eating of the Bread from Heaven (Manna).
- It was FULFILLED by the eating of the Br4ad of Life (Jesus).
This is why the NT Church gathered on the LORD’S Day – the FIRST day of the week (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10) - and NOT on the Sabbath which has been fulfilled.
And this is ALSO why the Apostles did NOT impose the Law on Gentile Christians as we read in their letter in Acts 15:23-29.
The Sabbath, which POINTED to Jesus – was FUFILLED by Him.
Chiniquy was also framed by the Catholic Church and was successfully defended in court by that upstart lawyer, Abraham Lincoln. Murdered by the same people who framed his client.Well, according to this NON_CATHOLIC source, Charles Chiniquy was a con-artist, a womanizing pervert and slandered opponents and his bishop. After his excommunication, he went to the Presbyterian church and they threw him out. The only ones who would publish him (he was desperate for money) were a small group of paranoid fundamentalists with a Ku Klux Klan mentality.
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Charles Chiniquy vs. the Catholic Church - 1801-1900 Church History
Charles Chiniquy vs. the Catholic Church from the 1801-1900 Church history timeline. Learn about historical christian events within church history!www.christianity.com
To this day, some of Chiniquy's works are still promoted among Protestant Christians and Sola scriptura believers. One of his most well-known modern day followers was the American Fundamentalist cartoonist and comic book writer Jack Chick, notable for being the creator of the "Chick tracts";[14] he also published a comic-form adaptation of Chiniquy's autobiography Fifty Years in The Church of Rome, titled "The Big Betrayal".[15] Chick strongly relied on Chiniquy's claims and books for writing his own anti-Catholic tracts.![]()
Charles Chiniquy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Enouh 111 thinks Alexander Hislop was a great theologian.
2 samples:
This article first appeared in the volume 22, number 2 (2000) issue of the Christian Research Journal. (another non-Catholic source)I realized that citing a similarity does not provide proof. There must be a legitimate connection. Let’s suppose on May 10 a man was stabbed to death in Seattle. There were strong reasons for believing a certain person did it. He had motive. He was physically strong. He owned a large knife. He had a criminal record. He was known to have a violent temper and had threatened the victim in the past. All of these things would connect him to the murder, except for one thing: on May 10 he was not in Seattle; he was in Florida.So it is with the claims that are made about pagan origins. They may appear to have a connection, but on investigation, often there is no connection at all.For these and many other reasons, I pulled my own book, Babylon Mystery Religion, out of print despite its popularity. This was not done because I was being threatened in any way or persecuted. This decision was made because of conviction, not compromise. While my original book did contain some valid information, I could not in good conscience continue to publish a book against pagan mixture knowing that it contained a mixture itself of misinformation about Babylonian origins.The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology - Christian Research Institute
This article first appeared in the volume 22, number 2 (2000) issue of the Christian Research Journal. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org A review of The Two Babylons, or The Papal Worship by Alexander Hislop (Lorizeaux Brothers...www.equip.org
I noticed that Chucky and Alex and Ellen G. White, and Chucky Taze came from the same era and the same country, like a virus.
Is Enogh 111 a representative of the true church?
His work has been utterly discredited. Christians of any moral caliber whatsoever should not refer to Hislop's nonsense to convince Roman Catholics that Roman Catholicism is wrong, rather, they should use Scripture to prove that Roman Catholicism is wrong.hmm...another non-Catholic source.BEWARE OF ALEXANDER HISLOP AND HISLOPITES ON THE FORUM
A lot of the anti-Christmas, anti-Easter, anti-Roman Catholic remarks on the forums come from Hislopites, who believe the teachings of Alexander Hislop, or were indoctrinated by individuals influenced by Hislop's writings. I am definitely not pro-Roman Catholic Church, but my discussions with...christianchat.com
Whether or not that is true, Chiniquy did expose the errors of the Catholic Church, but you are trying to dodge that issue and make Chiniquy into a bad guy. So let me give you a small snippet from his book, and you will see that all Protestants and Non-Catholics would agree with this:Well, according to this NON_CATHOLIC source, Charles Chiniquy was a con-artist, a womanizing pervert and slandered opponents and his bishop.
Selfies of the apostles with the Boss?You didn't read the post I was responding to - did you?
"They have much longer hair on Jesus in the photos of him. "
A common response, much like a distressed and neurotic housewife whose husband came home late from work... Why do you hate me so much!!!????Denominations have failed to justify the unbiblical, illogical, divisive, unhistorical man made tradition of sola scriptura.
Almost everything you have been taught or read about the Catholic Church is false.
Everything that is true in your beliefs is found in the Catholic Church.
You've made up your mind, so trying to explain doctrinal beliefs to you is pointless.
Proof of this is you ignoring the explanation of "no salvation outside the church" in post #1501, your responded with"
"How am I "grossly mistaken"? Did or did NOT the Catholic Church once teach that there is no salvation outside of the "church"?"
You don't want explanations, you prefer to argue out of ignorance and prejudice. That's why you resist explanations.
The church of Christ is his body of believers is correct.
Not an institution is false because your definition of institution is false.
DEFINITION IF "INSTITUTIONS"
a
: an established organization or corporation (such as a bank or university) especially of a public character
b:
a facility or establishment in which people (such as the sick or needy) live and receive care typically in a confined setting and often without individual consent
… the testator disinherited her siblings over their efforts to have her committed to a mental institution in the wake of several suicide attempts.—William M. McGovern Jr.
c
: a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture
the institution of marriage
also : something or someone firmly associated with a place or thing![]()
Definition of INSTITUTION
an established organization or corporation (such as a bank or university) especially of a public character; a facility or establishment in which people (such as the sick or needy) live and receive care typically in a confined setting and often without individual consent… See the full definitionwww.merriam-webster.com
The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 fits this definition to a "T". Peter, James and John together with the Apostles and elders were an institution. Here, you despise the institutional nature of the Church from the very beginning. Impotent little Bible clubs, who think they are a church, can't even organize an inner city soup kitchen, which requires an institution to function even at the lowest level.
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Properly born again as adults who choose Jesus and not as infants who can't make that choice.What is the one true Church?
All Christians who are born again of the Holy Spirit.
Rom. 8:8-9, 1 John 5:12-13.