What is the one true Church?

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robert derrick

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I guess that leaves EVERYBODY out

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
You're not everybody, and everybody is not like you.

When you stop quoting Scripture for the unsaved, and applying it to yourself, then we can look at what the Bible says about being saved.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
 

Grailhunter

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The Apostle Thomas established a church in India, a Catholic Church, that is still there to this day.
Yep he flew there in a 747 and they all greeted him and hailed him as Pope Thomas and he took them all out to McDonald's and had Happy Meals and afterwards he baptized them in a jacuzzi. LOL

Never ask Catholics about history!
 
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Brakelite

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The Apostle Thomas established a church in India, a Catholic Church, that is still there to this day.

KOCHI, India—More than 100,000 Catholics, including nearly 100 bishops and 1,500 priests, marked the 1,950 years of Christianity in India since the arrival of St. Thomas the Apostle...
...The massive celebration was organized by the Catholic Bishops Conference of India and the Kerala Catholic Bishops' Council to commemorate the arrival of St. Thomas in Kerala in the year 52 and of St. Francis Xavier 1,500 years later.

The Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier... preached the Gospel across India before he set out for China, where he died in 1552.

Indian Church Founded by St. Thomas Marks 1,950 Years of Christianity
Brokelite, your demonizing the historic Church is despicable.
What is more despicable is your blind obstinate refusal to recognize Christianity in parts of the early world distinct from catholicism. The Celtic church was not Catholic. Nor was the Syrian church, Persian, India, or Chinese churches. They were distinct in practise and in doctrine. Thomas was an apostle sent from Jerusalem, and was not representing the bishop of Rome but to the contrary, Jesus Christ
 

Brakelite

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There you go again, pitting Protestants against Catholics. You talk as if there were a competition. It's 2023, not 1517.
You're a slave to 16th century politics.
What agreement can there be between light and darkness, between the holy and the profane? This isn't a debate between Protestants and Catholics. Too late for that, as you've already noticed, the so called Protestants have already apostatized and surrendered. The controversy today continues as it always was, between Truth and error. Between a fake gospel and the true gospel. Between salvation by works, and salvation through the blood of the Lamb. Between the High Priest ministering in the heavenly sanctuary, and a counterfeit high priest ministering in the Vatican.
Sadly, most of the world today have been drinking the wine of Babylon, and are too drunk to discern between the holy and profane. Which is why do many protestant churches are today giving up their hard won freedoms at the cost of so many lives, and becoming harlot daughters, imbibing of the abominations in their mother's cup.
 

BreadOfLife

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Nonsense.
No – BIBLICAL truth.
Jesus and His Church are ONE:

Acts 9:3-5

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


Paul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus compared His very SELF with His Church.

Eph. 1:22-23
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

The Church is Christ in His FULLNESS.
Leave His Church and you leave HIM.
 

Illuminator

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It's clear to me you do not understand the point of the prophecies in the book of Revelation.
It's clear the Watchtower Society has more flip flops than a pancake house.
The struggle between light and darkness and how darkness and its attempts to usurp light have history we can verify.
A false history you "verify" is absent of any scholarly references, the same as Brokelite's sick obsession with the Inquisition.
You call it 16th century politics as if the same principle is not operative today.
Most of the arguments against Catholicism stem from the same boring 16th century politics that have been refuted a million times. Vatican II ended the need for a so called "reformation" if you bother to read its documents. But the anti-Catholic doesn't want to let go of his 16th century security blanket, engages in a censorship of the Early Church Fathers writings, and cannot comprehend development of doctrine. They are stuck in a 16th century mindset and refuse to grow up.
The Book of Revelation is not focused on 2 doom and gloom chapters.
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

The WTS claims to be God’s inspired prophet (WT, 4-1-1972, 197)—and yet its prophecies have repeatedly proven to be false.

Among other things, the WTS falsely predicted the following:
1889: “The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev. 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . ” (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).
1891: “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).
1894: “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).
1916: “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
1918: “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).
1923: “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).
1925: “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).
1939: “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).
1941: “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).
1946: “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).
1968: “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).
Besides false prophecies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:
  • The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31)
  • “There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
  • “We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . ” (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).
  • “Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).
A much longer list of such contradictions and doctrinal twists by the WTS could be formed, but this suffices to remove any reason one might have to believe that “It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people” (WT, 5-1-1964, 277).

With this kind of track record, how do you expect me or anyone to accept the WTS's interpretation of history, let alone the Book of Revelation?
 
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quietthinker

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It's clear the Watchtower Society has more flip flops than a pancake house.
What has that go to do with the topic at hand?
A false history you "verify" is absent of any scholarly references, the same as Brokelite's sick obsession with the Inquisition.
Any accusation to conceal or misrepresent.
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.
I do not find this
view persuasive. I do however find it an attempt to conflate information to justify religious practices.
The WTS claims to be God’s inspired prophet (WT, 4-1-1972, 197)—and yet its prophecies have repeatedly proven to be false.
This is your second attempt in this reply to align the WTS with me. Why?.......and I would add, if your alignment in this simple matter is so out of sync, no wonder anything requiring more scrutiny is skewed.
 

Grailhunter

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Suggestions for the Catholic Church for the future of the Catholic Church

As it sits the Catholic Church is poised for greatness, they just need to take the next step in the right direction….

It has the membership…..larger than all the Protestant denominations combined.

It has the Physical infrastructure…..churches, cathedrals, schools, colleges, hospitals, missions…..worldwide.

It has people working for them, it has people in service to them.

Everything is there to support moving to the future.

It has religious pomp and circumstance for those that like it. And I do like it. It has churches and cathedrals that provide a special religious ambience and ritual services. I miss the Latin….I cannot believe I spoke Latin! And I love the Stations of the Cross in the Cathedrals. Usually try to make it to St. Louis for that but I was honored to see it at Our Lady of Notre Dame in 88.

I do not need it all the time….and I enjoy the fellowship and worship services and songs of the Protestant churches and of course all the activities of the Protestants and the Catholics….

So now what should the Catholic Church do to march on to greatness?

1. I believe I have told the forum about the German exchange students I fellowshipped with. And when the topic of Nazi Germany and the Jewish holocaust came up, sometimes they would get emotional but they would shake their heads and admit they had no idea how that craziness happened. But they would not deny it.

The Church should learn that lesson from the Germans….it does no good to deny the past….it cannot be changed….the Pope has already apologized for most of it….just shake your head and move on. If you deny it, it looks like you are trying to justify it or you endorse it or even worse since you do not condemn it, it makes it look like the Church would do it all again if it could. You cannot change the past and you are not going to change the perceptions.....

….for right now….so concentrate on blazing a good path for the future. Christianity is about forgiveness and I forgive the Catholic Church….the Catholics in the pews were always good. And there are some Protestants out there that are smart enough to know that the Protestant churches learned something about what not to do from the Catholic Church. God bless the Catholic Church.

2. Change the priesthood. For those that want to be celibate for their whole life and serve the Church….fine. But offer service programs…5 year or longer terms of service and the church could offer vocational training for when they leave the priesthood. Same thing goes for the Nuns.

3. The priesthood should include females….and yes I tell the Protestants the same thing. The priests, bishops, cardinals, all the way up to the Pope.

4. Offer the Bread and Wine ritual in a traditional manner for small groups that sign up for it.

5. Offer full immersion baptisms for adults.

6. The world has never needed Catholic Schools more than it does now.

7. Doctrines are history…who pays attention to them anyway? All they do is bring up the past errors and craziness. Better to preach the Bible and if the Catholic Church has received some positive revelations along the way ….include that too. But stop trying to control People’s live or exactly what they believe…..Belief control has always been a fool’s folly. Take it from someone that hunts with and golfs with preachers….I know their frustration. A statement of faith and the Apostle's Creed is good enough.

8. The Catholic Church and the Protestants need to get out of the habit of crotch sniffing. None of their business what married couples do with their crotches. Nor is their methods of contraception any of their business either.

The Catholic Church needs to look to the future and think out to the box.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Suggestions for the Catholic Church for the future of the Catholic Church

As it sits the Catholic Church is poised for greatness, they just need to take the next step in the right direction….

It has the membership…..larger than all the Protestant denominations combined.

It has the Physical infrastructure…..churches, cathedrals, schools, colleges, hospitals, missions…..worldwide.

It has people working for them, it has people in service to them.

Everything is there to support moving to the future.

It has religious pomp and circumstance for those that like it. And I do like it. It has churches and cathedrals that provide a special religious ambience and ritual services. I miss the Latin….I cannot believe I spoke Latin! And I love the Stations of the Cross in the Cathedrals. Usually try to make it to St. Louis for that but I was honored to see it at Our Lady of Notre Dame in 88.

I do not need it all the time….and I enjoy the fellowship and worship services and songs of the Protestant churches and of course all the activities of the Protestants and the Catholics….

So now what should the Catholic Church do to march on to greatness?

1. I believe I have told the forum about the German exchange students I fellowshipped with. And when the topic of Nazi Germany and the Jewish holocaust came up, sometimes they would get emotional but they would shake their heads and admit they had no idea how that craziness happened. But they would not deny it.

The Church should learn that lesson from the Germans….it does no good to deny the past….it cannot be changed….the Pope has already apologized for most of it….just shake your head and move on. If you deny it, it looks like you are trying to justify it or you endorse it or even worse since you do not condemn it, it makes it look like the Church would do it all again if it could. You cannot change the past and you are not going to change the perceptions.....

….for right now….so concentrate on blazing a good path for the future. Christianity is about forgiveness and I forgive the Catholic Church….the Catholics in the pews were always good. And there are some Protestants out there that are smart enough to know that the Protestant churches learned something about what not to do from the Catholic Church. God bless the Catholic Church.

2. Change the priesthood. For those that want to be celibate for their whole life and serve the Church….fine. But offer service programs…5 year or longer terms of service and the church could offer vocational training for when they leave the priesthood. Same thing goes for the Nuns.

3. The priesthood should include females….and yes I tell the Protestants the same thing. The priests, bishops, cardinals, all the way up to the Pope.

4. Offer the Bread and Wine ritual in a traditional manner for small groups that sign up for it.

5. Offer full immersion baptisms for adults.

6. The world has never needed Catholic Schools more than it does now.

7. Doctrines are history…who pays attention to them anyway? All they do is bring up the past errors and craziness. Better to preach the Bible and if the Catholic Church has received some positive revelations along the way ….include that too. But stop trying to control People’s live or exactly what they believe…..Belief control has always been a fool’s folly. Take it from someone that hunts with and golfs with preachers….I know their frustration. A statement of faith and the Apostle's Creed is good enough.

8. The Catholic Church and the Protestants need to get out of the habit of crotch sniffing. None of their business what married couples do with their crotches. Nor is their methods of contraception any of their business either.

The Catholic Church needs to look to the future and think out to the box.
It's obvious by your manifesto that you don’t have a CLUE about the Church that you thing should conform to YOUR ideas.
Allow me to educate you . . .

First of all – NOBODY is “denying” the past. How many Popes need to apologize or speak on the subject before people like YOU understand this.
Seems like it’s YOU who can’t get over the past . . .

What YOU refer to as the “Bread and wine Ritual” (the Eucharist)_ is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus ChristNOT bread and wine. It is NOT made available to non-Catholics because they do not believe it top be His Body and Blood – but just a “symbol”.

It would be an abomination for someone to consume the Eucharist with this mindset and lack of faith in the Real Presence.

The Priesthood is a lifelong vocation – not a part-time job. As for the celibate Priesthood – Priests ARE allowed to marry in the Eastern Rites. It is only the Western (Latin Rite) that requires a celibate priesthood.

And the Priesthood will never include females and, as St. John Paul II stated – the Church it CANNOT change that which Christ Himself instituted.

Your “Doctrines are history” drivel is ALMOST as absurd and stupid as the very idea that YOU have a “better” plan for the Church.
Not QUITE – but ALMOST . . .

As for Baptism – the Church ALREADY offers full immersion Baptism – and HAS done so for 2000 years.
Where have YOU been??

As to your idiotic “crotch-sniffing” comments – ‘nuff said . . .

Here’s some advice:
Get a clue before posting this kind of provocative manure . . .
 

Grailhunter

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First of all – NOBODY is “denying” the past. How many Popes need to apologize or speak on the subject before people like YOU understand this.
Seems like it’s YOU who can’t get over the past . . .
You have demonstrated a health dose of denial throughout the form.
Your understanding of the Catholic Church exists as a fantasy between your ears.
You cannot change the past and you are not going to change the perceptions ….for right now….so concentrate on blazing a good path for the future. Christianity is about forgiveness and I forgive the Catholic Church….the Catholics in the pews were always good. And there are some Protestants out there that are smart enough to know that the Protestant churches learned something about what not to do from the Catholic Church. God bless the Catholic Church.

What YOU refer to as the “Bread and wine Ritual” (the Eucharist)_ is the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus ChristNOT bread and wine. It is NOT made available to non-Catholics because they do not believe it top be His Body and Blood – but just a “symbol”.

It would be an abomination for someone to consume the Eucharist with this mindset and lack of faith in the Real Presence.

Your posts consist of so many wrong perceptions I need to start keeping track.
1. It is not wrong for Catholics to call the Bread and Wine Ritual the Eucharist.....some call it Communion....I call it the Bread and Wine Ritual. Whatever label we use is fine.

2. The Bible does not single out Catholics for the Bread and Wine Ritual....it is for believers..... Then you have to define believers in what? The Bible does not explain exactly all the aspects of the Bread and Wine Ritual.....All we were told is that if you do not participate in the Ritual you have no life in you and will not be raised at the end of time. I am not entirely sure if we could comprehend all the aspects of the Bread and Wine Ritual.

And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. Matthew 22:19-20

The key conditional word is....is....not like. The bread is His body and the wine is His blood and He said this is the new covenant in His blood. The bleeding heart of Christ. I know that there are some that do not like or understand that Christianity is technically a blood religion. Without the blood of Christ, there is no salvation. I can go on and on about people that define their religion by what they like and do not like....that is a fantasy religion. Now the Catholics may think they know exactly what is going on with the Bread and Wine Ritual but I do not think anyone does beyond what the scriptures say. As far as changing anything to manufactured wafers or substituting crackers and Kool-Aid, it is not biblical and they do so at the risk of nullify the effects of the Bread and wine Ritual.

And the Priesthood will never include females and, as St. John Paul II stated – the Church it CANNOT change that which Christ Himself instituted.
And it is people like you that hold the church back and keep it from growing. And I am not just talking about the Catholic Church I am talking about the Protestant Church too. As far as Christ is concerned their is no distinction between men and women, just children of God.

Your “Doctrines are history” drivel is ALMOST as absurd and stupid as the very idea that YOU have a “better” plan for the Church.
Not QUITE – but ALMOST . . .
Most of the doctrines of the Catholic Church are drivel and proposed by mad men that little understanding of the heart of Christ and the spirit of Christianity.

As for Baptism – the Church ALREADY offers full immersion Baptism – and HAS done so for 2000 years.
Where have YOU been??
Well maybe you can educate me on this. I was raised in the Catholic Church and have been in Catholic Churches in Missouri and up and down the eastern seaboard and in five countries and have never seen a full immersion baptismal. Could just be a coincidence? Send me a picture of a full immersion Catholic baptismal. I am not above learning something.

As to your idiotic “crotch-sniffing” comments – ‘nuff said . . .
Yes crotch sniffing needs to stop. Christianity is not a crotch religion.
The Holy Spirit needs to touch the hearts of Christians and at least learn the bare basics of Christianity....if they cannot love each other all they believe means nothing and all the words in the scriptures have meant nothing to them. Just giving Christ lip service in believing that they love one another.
 

quietthinker

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As it sits the Catholic Church is poised for greatness, they just need to take the next step in the right direction….

It has the membership…..larger than all the Protestant denominations combined.

It has the Physical infrastructure…..churches, cathedrals, schools, colleges, hospitals, missions…..worldwide.

It has people working for them, it has people in service to them.

Everything is there to support moving to the future.

It has religious pomp and circumstance for those that like it. And I do like it. It has churches and cathedrals that provide a special religious ambience and ritual services. I miss the Latin….I cannot believe I spoke Latin! And I love the Stations of the Cross in the Cathedrals. Usually try to make it to St. Louis for that but I was honored to see it at Our Lady of Notre Dame in 88.

I do not need it all the time….and I enjoy the fellowship and worship services and songs of the Protestant churches and of course all the activities of the Protestants and the Catholics….

So now what should the Catholic Church do to march on to greatness?
Revelation 18:7-8
7In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
 

face2face

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If we consider the organised religious bodies in existence at the time of the Lord's ministry he choose a bunch of rough necks who swore and cussed to start his church. Where Christianity has arrived is a Mother _hore who has many daughters, so if you belong to the Mother "fear", and if you belong to her daughters, "be afraid" - truth is coming.
 

Grailhunter

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Revelation 18:7-8
7In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
I understand how some interpret Revelation as talking about the Catholic Church and it fuels the hate in Christianity.
A lot of bad feelings between the Catholic Church and Protestants and others....
But you do not want to turn Christianity into a religion of hate. Hate fuels Satan and brings Satan into your heart and your life.
The past is past....one of the primary tenets of faith is forgiveness. The miracle of faith is that it works both ways. The miracle of forgiving others relievers the pain of hate for them and yourself.
Christ asks for very little.....love one another....if you cannot do that how deep is your understanding? If you do not forgive others why would you expect him to forgive you?
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. Matthew 6:14-15
Some people think it is a demonstration of faith to hate Catholics....what it is, is a demonstration of not understanding Christ or Christianity.
It is one of the reasons I say that it is not enough to memorize the scriptures....that does not mean you understand them....and even more importantly know the Spirit of Christ and Christianity.
Hate in your heart destroys the Spirit of Christianity, not just you, but Christianity as a whole. The body of Christ is corrupted by the hate within. What have we learned from Christ....if we have not learned love and forgiveness....what have we learned?
A religion of hate is a disgrace to Christ.
 
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Illuminator

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Suggestions for the Catholic Church for the future of the Catholic Church

As it sits the Catholic Church is poised for greatness, they just need to take the next step in the right direction….

It has the membership…..larger than all the Protestant denominations combined.

It has the Physical infrastructure…..churches, cathedrals, schools, colleges, hospitals, missions…..worldwide.

It has people working for them, it has people in service to them.

Everything is there to support moving to the future.

It has religious pomp and circumstance for those that like it. And I do like it. It has churches and cathedrals that provide a special religious ambience and ritual services. I miss the Latin….I cannot believe I spoke Latin! And I love the Stations of the Cross in the Cathedrals. Usually try to make it to St. Louis for that but I was honored to see it at Our Lady of Notre Dame in 88.

I do not need it all the time….and I enjoy the fellowship and worship services and songs of the Protestant churches and of course all the activities of the Protestants and the Catholics….

So now what should the Catholic Church do to march on to greatness?

1. I believe I have told the forum about the German exchange students I fellowshipped with. And when the topic of Nazi Germany and the Jewish holocaust came up, sometimes they would get emotional but they would shake their heads and admit they had no idea how that craziness happened. But they would not deny it.

The Church should learn that lesson from the Germans….it does no good to deny the past….it cannot be changed….the Pope has already apologized for most of it….just shake your head and move on. If you deny it, it looks like you are trying to justify it or you endorse it or even worse since you do not condemn it, it makes it look like the Church would do it all again if it could. You cannot change the past and you are not going to change the perceptions.....

….for right now….so concentrate on blazing a good path for the future. Christianity is about forgiveness and I forgive the Catholic Church….the Catholics in the pews were always good. And there are some Protestants out there that are smart enough to know that the Protestant churches learned something about what not to do from the Catholic Church. God bless the Catholic Church.

2. Change the priesthood. For those that want to be celibate for their whole life and serve the Church….fine. But offer service programs…5 year or longer terms of service and the church could offer vocational training for when they leave the priesthood. Same thing goes for the Nuns.

3. The priesthood should include females….and yes I tell the Protestants the same thing. The priests, bishops, cardinals, all the way up to the Pope.

4. Offer the Bread and Wine ritual in a traditional manner for small groups that sign up for it.

5. Offer full immersion baptisms for adults.

6. The world has never needed Catholic Schools more than it does now.

7. Doctrines are history…who pays attention to them anyway? All they do is bring up the past errors and craziness. Better to preach the Bible and if the Catholic Church has received some positive revelations along the way ….include that too. But stop trying to control People’s live or exactly what they believe…..Belief control has always been a fool’s folly. Take it from someone that hunts with and golfs with preachers….I know their frustration. A statement of faith and the Apostle's Creed is good enough.

8. The Catholic Church and the Protestants need to get out of the habit of crotch sniffing. None of their business what married couples do with their crotches. Nor is their methods of contraception any of their business either.

The Catholic Church needs to look to the future and think out to the box.
It is this kind of modernist liberalism that is an enemy of the human race. If the encyclicals of the past 100 years aren't looking to the future, it's because you're thinking in a self-destructive box. If the world followed the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality, AIDS would disappear in one or two generations, and the long list of sex related diseases would dwindle to nothing. BigPharm would lose trillions. So the world does everything it can to undermine the Church's moral authority so people can worship their sex gods without responsible restraint. That underlines a main source of anti-Catholicism, it's about sex.

Controversial as it was, Humanae Vitae is today regarded as prophetic. Its predictions (cf. HV 17) about the effects of contraception on society are seen today as accurate. First, according to Pope Paul VI, artificial methods of birth control opens the way of lowering of moral standards for the young as well as leads to marital infidelity.

Second, the use of contraception will lead to the lowering of respect for women; husbands will regard their wives as mere instruments to serve their own desires. Thirdly, the use of artificial methods of contraception, Pope Paul VI warned, will be a dangerous tool in the hands of government or public authorities who care little about the moral law, and who may force the use of contraceptives on everyone.

Is this not our observation today?
Many of the proposed bills in our Philippine Congress have been identified by our Episcopal Commission on Family and Life as D.E.A.T.H. Bills because they ultimately lead to the promotion of Divorce, Euthanasia, Abortion, Total Reproductive Health, Homosexuality (same sex marriage). On closer scrutiny of the proposed bills
  • they are anti-life,
  • violative of the dignity and sanctity of human life and anti-family;
  • they disunite rather than untie couples,
  • and destroy the family consecrated by God as the sanctuary of human life.
Unfortunately and sadly, some of these bills which encounter opposition in Congress, from pro-life and pro-family Representatives, are enacted by some local government units inspite of moral objection of the church. Patriarch Athenagoras I stating his full agreement with Pope Paul VI said: “He could not have spoken in any other way.”

 

Illuminator

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The controversy produced by Humane Vitae is an expression of the inherent tension between the paternalistic/legalistic emphasis on moral law and the personalistic emphasis on freedom of conscience.
And yet, neither can be sacrificed for the sake of the other. No less than Pope John Paul II has reaffirmed much of Humanae Vitae in his Encyclical Veritatis Splendor and his Theology of the Body clarifying at the same time the use of individual conscience in arriving at moral decisions on responsible parenthood.

What is the Theology of the Body?​

The “Theology of the Body” is St. John Paul II's integrated vision of the human person. The human body has a specific meaning, making visible an invisible reality, and is capable of revealing answers regarding fundamental questions about us and our lives:
  • Is there a real purpose to life and if so, what is it?
  • What does it mean that we were created in the image of God?
  • Why were we created male and female? Does it really matter if we are one sex or another?
  • What does the marital union of a man and woman say to us about God and his plan for our lives?
  • What is the purpose of the married and celibate vocations?
  • What exactly is "Love"?
  • Is it truly possible to be pure of heart?
All of these questions, and many more, are answered in the 129 Wednesday audiences popularly known as the “Theology of the Body,” delivered by St. John Paul II between 1979 and 1984.
His reflections are based on Scripture and contain a vision of the human person truly worthy of man. Emphasizing the theme of love as self-gift, they counteract societal trends which view the body as an object of pleasure or as a machine for manipulation.
Instead, the body shows us the call and gives us the means to love in the image of God. His earlier book Love and Responsibility, and other papal documents, such as Familiaris Consortio (ON THE ROLE OF THE CHRISTIAN FAMILY
IN THE MODERN WORLD)
and Mulieris Dignitatem (ON THE DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN)
also touch on these and related themes.
John Paul II encourages a true reverence for the gift of our sexuality and challenges us to live it in a way worthy of our great dignity as human persons. His theology is not only for young adults or married couples, but for all ages and vocations, since it sums up the true meaning of being a person.
 

Grailhunter

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It is this kind of modernist liberalism that is an enemy of the human race. If the encyclicals of the past 100 years aren't looking to the future, it's because you're thinking in a self-destructive box. If the world followed the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality, AIDS would disappear in one or two generations, and the long list of sex related diseases would dwindle to nothing. BigPharm would lose trillions. So the world does everything it can to undermine the Church's moral authority so people can worship their sex gods without responsible restraint. That underlines a main source of anti-Catholicism, it's about sex.
I am not a modernist liberal. But you sound like one.
The Church's teachings on marriage and sexuality? How about the scriptures.
BigParma....no a fan but you sound like a antiestablishment hippie. LOL
Church's authority?....the root of its downfall....the lust for authority and power.
That underlines a main source of anti-Catholicism, it's about sex.???? No it is not about sex.

Controversial as it was, Humanae Vitae is today regarded as prophetic.
By who?
Either way crotch sniffing in religion is the intellectual equivalent of dogs sniff each other butts.
Again it goes back to lust for power and control....We have control of your crotch!

Second, the use of contraception will lead to the lowering of respect for women;
Respect for women!!!! How was torturing mothers and chopping them up and force feeding them to their children!!!!
The Catholic Church has not developed a track record for respect for women.....but it needs to develop one.
Thirdly, the use of artificial methods of contraception, Pope Paul VI warned, will be a dangerous tool in the hands of government or public authorities who care little about the moral law, and who may force the use of contraceptives on everyone.
Whose moral law? And prophylactics are not that dangerous. LOL

Many of the proposed bills in our Philippine Congress have been identified by our Episcopal Commission on Family and Life as D.E.A.T.H. Bills because they ultimately lead to the promotion of Divorce, Euthanasia, Abortion, Total Reproductive Health, Homosexuality (same sex marriage). On closer scrutiny of the proposed bills
  • they are anti-life,
  • violative of the dignity and sanctity of human life and anti-family;
  • they disunite rather than untie couples,
  • and destroy the family consecrated by God as the sanctuary of human life.
Unfortunately and sadly, some of these bills which encounter opposition in Congress, from pro-life and pro-family Representatives, are enacted by some local government units inspite of moral objection of the church. Patriarch Athenagoras I stating his full agreement with Pope Paul VI said: “He could not have spoken in any other way.”

Anyone with any intelligence disagrees with this.
Contraception has nothing to do with pro-life or pro-family. People that have used contraception generally have kids and families.
What it is about is the church thinking it has control of people's crotches.
 
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Illuminator

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Suggestions for the Catholic Church for the future of the Catholic Church

As it sits the Catholic Church is poised for greatness, they just need to take the next step in the right direction….

It has the membership…..larger than all the Protestant denominations combined.

It has the Physical infrastructure…..churches, cathedrals, schools, colleges, hospitals, missions…..worldwide.

It has people working for them, it has people in service to them.

Everything is there to support moving to the future.

It has religious pomp and circumstance for those that like it. And I do like it. It has churches and cathedrals that provide a special religious ambience and ritual services. I miss the Latin….I cannot believe I spoke Latin! And I love the Stations of the Cross in the Cathedrals. Usually try to make it to St. Louis for that but I was honored to see it at Our Lady of Notre Dame in 88.

I do not need it all the time….and I enjoy the fellowship and worship services and songs of the Protestant churches and of course all the activities of the Protestants and the Catholics….

So now what should the Catholic Church do to march on to greatness?

1. I believe I have told the forum about the German exchange students I fellowshipped with. And when the topic of Nazi Germany and the Jewish holocaust came up, sometimes they would get emotional but they would shake their heads and admit they had no idea how that craziness happened. But they would not deny it.

The Church should learn that lesson from the Germans….it does no good to deny the past….it cannot be changed….the Pope has already apologized for most of it….just shake your head and move on. If you deny it, it looks like you are trying to justify it or you endorse it or even worse since you do not condemn it, it makes it look like the Church would do it all again if it could. You cannot change the past and you are not going to change the perceptions.....

….for right now….so concentrate on blazing a good path for the future. Christianity is about forgiveness and I forgive the Catholic Church….the Catholics in the pews were always good. And there are some Protestants out there that are smart enough to know that the Protestant churches learned something about what not to do from the Catholic Church. God bless the Catholic Church.

2. Change the priesthood. For those that want to be celibate for their whole life and serve the Church….fine. But offer service programs…5 year or longer terms of service and the church could offer vocational training for when they leave the priesthood. Same thing goes for the Nuns.

3. The priesthood should include females….and yes I tell the Protestants the same thing. The priests, bishops, cardinals, all the way up to the Pope.

4. Offer the Bread and Wine ritual in a traditional manner for small groups that sign up for it.

5. Offer full immersion baptisms for adults.

6. The world has never needed Catholic Schools more than it does now.

7. Doctrines are history…who pays attention to them anyway? All they do is bring up the past errors and craziness. Better to preach the Bible and if the Catholic Church has received some positive revelations along the way ….include that too. But stop trying to control People’s live or exactly what they believe…..Belief control has always been a fool’s folly. Take it from someone that hunts with and golfs with preachers….I know their frustration. A statement of faith and the Apostle's Creed is good enough.

8. The Catholic Church and the Protestants need to get out of the habit of crotch sniffing. None of their business what married couples do with their crotches. Nor is their methods of contraception any of their business either.

The Catholic Church needs to look to the future and think out to the box.
We know that the situation in America (in particular) could easily blow up into schism, and almost did in the controversy surrounding Humanae Vitae in 1968, where theologians flat-out rebelled en masse against Pope St. Paul VI’s heroic teaching reaffirming the age-old Christian ban on contraception (with which all Christians of all types agreed before 1930, when Anglicanism first softened the prohibition). I know this to be a verified fact in the dilemmas faced by, and approach of Pope Paul VI, with regard to the dissent, because the late Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. (a leading catechist and thoroughly orthodox Catholic scholar, and personal adviser to Paul VI) has stated this at Ignatian catechist meetings where I was present. Msgr. George A. Kelly (another rock-solid orthodox Catholic and no-holds-barred critic of modernism) writes:

A massive effort to enforce Catholic law at this time and at all points would mean repressions — or schism, with civil courts asked to adjudicate important aspects of this religious conflict. What then can be done? How should the bishops of the United States support the obvious policies of the Pope? How must they deal with Rome’s concern of several years standing that an emerging American Church is in the offing — one likely to create as much trouble for Catholicism as French Gallicanism did for several centuries prior to Vatican I. (The Crisis of Authority, Chicago: Regnery Gateway, 1982, 93-94)

Noted orthodox Catholic historian and writer James Hitchcock confirms that the dissenters are virulently anti-papal (if anyone didn’t know that already):

Granting that all this analysis is true (and I see no reason to doubt it), it is quite reasonable to assume that strong, sweeping papal disciplinary actions in America would almost certainly result in a tragic schism. And since schism is to be avoided at all costs, the pope and orthodox bishops must proceed in a slower, more deliberate, long-term fashion. Catholicism is neither Puritanism nor Donatism.

Heresy and schism are both extremely grave sins. Schism has the additional characteristic of being a sin against people and charity. The problem here is that if the pope plays a strong hand, he gets schism as well as heresy, because the heresy will continue right on within the schism. So then two very bad things would be present, and the heresy would have much more chance of lasting for decades, maybe centuries. At least now the Church is held together in some fashion (mostly abstract, in America, Canada, and Europe), and the pope can continue to forcefully assert the truth in his encyclicals, by promulgation of the Catechism, etc.

He can bide his time, and let the liberals grow old and die off (which they are doing in big numbers now). History shows that terrible periods in the Church are followed by massive revival. That is how this mess will be overcome (as always before, in the past).
 

Illuminator

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A Protestant wrote: "the Catholic Church today is infested with liberal theology."
I replied:
Among some individuals, yes. But it hasn't taken over our official "books" and doctrines. In Protestantism, this is not the case. Denominations continually become more liberal as time goes on, and only a few aren't. And so now they are mostly pro-abortion, pro-homosexual "marriage", process theology, open theism, etc. (heresies about God Himself).
*
I grew up in the Methodist church, which started out as a wonderful new Christian movement (actually within Anglicanism, which Wesley never left). I have immense respect for John Wesley, and edited a book of his quotations with a Protestant publisher.
*
The Methodists held off for a while, as they usually do, but now it is officially pro-abortion and in favor of "gay marriage": just like all the other "mainstream" denominations. And so now the traditional, orthodox Methodists are starting to break away and form orthodox denominations, just as traditional Anglicans did.
*
Why does this happen? It's because of the Protestant rule of faith, sola Scriptura, which can't find a way to unite and teach one set of Christian truths, the way Catholic theology has. So the result is ecclesiological chaos and doctrinal relativism.

https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/pfbid02W4kgZjWqfDxmQVcVRS8sh26EnvdEfxhdUeShGe3eXHvavfsWw8e1cisCbiY1kao6l
 

St. Joseph

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Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...” — John 17:20, 21

It is often asked, “What is the right denomination?” There are hundreds, if not thousands of denominations all claiming to be this one true church, but does God recognize any of these as His representative on earth? This subject should be approached prayerfully and honestly. If there was but one church in the beginning, established by our Lord, there should be but the one church in the end — the church triumphant in glory. Colossians 3:4

The word church was first used in the New Testament and is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia, which means a calling out. Jesus said to his disciples, “I have chosen you out of the world.” (John 15:19) The true church is a company of believers who, in accepting the invitation of Christ, have become sanctified or separated from the world, worldly pursuits and worldly organizations.

Those of the early church bore no denominational names, but were simply identified by their location. “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, …sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints…” (1 Corinthians 1:2) These sanctified individuals in various communities set themselves apart from the world and dedicate their lives to God through the merit of His Son. Thus, the true church is not a place to go to, nor is it a denomination to belong to. The church is the gathering of sincere believers. Paul emphasized this when he confirmed that Jesus’ followers were baptized only into Christ and not into an earthly organization. There is but one baptism, and that is into Christ. Thus, it is a misconception that one joins or is baptized into a particular church denomination. Ephesians 4:4-6; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3, 4
This should be a sticky.
 

Grailhunter

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We know that the situation in America (in particular) could easily blow up into schism, and almost did in the controversy surrounding Humanae Vitae in 1968, where theologians flat-out rebelled en masse against Pope St. Paul VI’s heroic teaching reaffirming the age-old Christian ban on contraception (with which all Christians of all types agreed before 1930, when Anglicanism first softened the prohibition). I know this to be a verified fact in the dilemmas faced by, and approach of Pope Paul VI, with regard to the dissent, because the late Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. (a leading catechist and thoroughly orthodox Catholic scholar, and personal adviser to Paul VI) has stated this at Ignatian catechist meetings where I was present. Msgr. George A. Kelly (another rock-solid orthodox Catholic and no-holds-barred critic of modernism) writes:



Noted orthodox Catholic historian and writer James Hitchcock confirms that the dissenters are virulently anti-papal (if anyone didn’t know that already):

Granting that all this analysis is true (and I see no reason to doubt it), it is quite reasonable to assume that strong, sweeping papal disciplinary actions in America would almost certainly result in a tragic schism. And since schism is to be avoided at all costs, the pope and orthodox bishops must proceed in a slower, more deliberate, long-term fashion. Catholicism is neither Puritanism nor Donatism.

Heresy and schism are both extremely grave sins. Schism has the additional characteristic of being a sin against people and charity. The problem here is that if the pope plays a strong hand, he gets schism as well as heresy, because the heresy will continue right on within the schism. So then two very bad things would be present, and the heresy would have much more chance of lasting for decades, maybe centuries. At least now the Church is held together in some fashion (mostly abstract, in America, Canada, and Europe), and the pope can continue to forcefully assert the truth in his encyclicals, by promulgation of the Catechism, etc.

He can bide his time, and let the liberals grow old and die off (which they are doing in big numbers now). History shows that terrible periods in the Church are followed by massive revival. That is how this mess will be overcome (as always before, in the past).
Again never ask a Catholics about history, or really Christianity. Because from the Catholic perspective they live a fantasy that they have a connection with God that gives them sweeping authority. As it is, it is the root of all that made the Catholic Church evil. The lust for power so overwhelming that it had to be part of their beliefs and faiths that they had the authority of God. And then they did it and this line of thinking can never turn out good and never will. All that characterizes the mind set of primitive cultures is brought forward in this line of thinking.

The primitive desire to conquer the world.....the desire to rule the world.....the desire to control the world. Empires and kingdoms were ate up with this and so was the Catholic Church. How many leaders in history claimed to be descendants of gods. The concept triggers certain insanities in the mind....They say, Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But is is deeper than that, the desire for absolute power sets up a mental break down of rationalization, then when it is achieved, then you effectively have someone that is insane in control and the insanities and atrocities commence.

History is full of this...the Roman Empire....Genghis Khan...Attila the Hun....Hitler.....various communist leaders....the Japanese leaders.....the Catholic Church....it never turns out well. And the Catholic Church is not going to turn things around or improve until they rid themselves of this mind set, this wrong thinking.

This desire takes root in the mind and corrupts rational thinking. I have worked with professional interventionists to try to free those that are part of cults like the Jehovah Witnesses, hare krishnas, and the Moonies. And I have seen this same type of attitude with them....its roots are set deep in their minds. Except the cults play on human perceptions to control them...the Catholic Church is different, the human mind may have this desire already there, but once you provide it with an avenue and power....it takes over the mind and can justify insane things....just as it did with the Catholic Church. But was it inevitable considering the circumstances and human nature. I have debated that, and it usually goes back to total power corrupts totally as part of human nature. But
you can see the catalyst of all this....it is power, because not all Catholics back then would do the things that the leadership of the Catholic Church did in the Middle Ages.

For that reason, for the most part, the evil homicidal insanity that infected the leadership of the Church had little affect on the Catholics in the pews. To some degree it is like the locust affect. You get enough of this insanity gathered together and it goes completely nuts and nothing is too evil for them to do.

Today this insanity cannot be put in motion.....the Church no longer has the power and control. If they tried it today they would be rejected or put in prison. But my point that it is still there.... instilled in the minds of some Catholics, is proven by you and BOL with everything you say and your attitude.....You cannot do it, but you are still thinking about it. You cannot do it, but you think it is right. You cannot do it, but you want to.....the ingredient that prevents it....is lack power. The ingredient that would cause some of them to go back to torturing and killing....is power.

And the discussion of the inquisitions and witch hunts always goes to the horrendously evil and insane. And it is the Catholic Church's fault....but is the bigger and more accurate fault, within human nature itself. The Eastern Orthodox Church has essentially the same beliefs that the Catholic Church has, but they never had the power to manifest control. The Eastern Orthodox Church avoided the atrocities because the schism occurred before the Catholic Church completely succumb to the insanities.

This mental mind set is difficult to shake....it almost defends itself through denial or by justifying the atrocities or their lust for power and control. The act of denial becomes an act of faith, a defense of the Catholic faith. So it is resistant to truth or reason. But the Catholic Church has to change to move forward....it is going to be painful.

But at this point the Catholic Church deserves no authority....and needs to concentrate on the Word of God. And learn the Spirit of Christianity that is love and forgiveness....not power and control.
 
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