What Is The Purpose Of Taking Communion ?

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Arnie Manitoba

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I am not anti-Catholic , nor will I bash anyone who thinks they are literally consuming the body and blood of the Lord during communion.

When I observe communion I see the bread and wine as symbolic , not His literal body and blood.

For the following reason.
Mtt 26:26-27 . .While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks
and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take and eat; this is my
body. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying:
Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured
out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus was sitting right there , (in his body and blood) , and handed out bread and wine as representative of his body and blood. (symbolic)

Is he had meant His literal body and blood , He would have told them to take a bite out of his arm or something.

Its as simple as that. At least to me.
 

aspen

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Yeah I know you are not anticatholic Arnie :)

I usually do not discuss the Eucharist because the first time I received it, I experienced something I cannot defend or explain. All I can say is that after believing that communion was supposed to be symbolic my whole life up until that point, my mind and heart were changed.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Yeah I know you are not anticatholic Arnie :)

I usually do not discuss the Eucharist because the first time I received it, I experienced something I cannot defend or explain. All I can say is that after believing that communion was supposed to be symbolic my whole life up until that point, my mind and heart were changed.


Interesting. (and I believe you)

I have attended a couple of (excellent Christian) Catholic services as a guest. On my way up to receive the wafer I sort of said a silent prayer along the lines of "Jesus ... I do not know if it is your body or blood , or symbolic , so I will just let it be what you intended ."

In all the years since (in protestant type) services .... guess what .... I have those same thoughts. But mostly I really try to shut everything out for a moment and try to really focus on the price Jesus paid for little old me. I find it very humbling and am profoundly grateful.

At least for that moment. Then I return to my normal busy life .... think only of myself .... leaving My Lord way in the background somewhere.

All of a sudden I feel like a catholic at confession ..... yikes .... :)
 
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Mungo

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You see? This is what happens when people listen to ecclesiastic celebrities
instead of listening to Christ. Well; serves them right; and I have to say that I
can hardly wait to watch the Lord's reaction when the species theorists quote
Rome's heroes in defense of their strange beliefs and practices. (chuckle)
That's going to be good because smoke and mirrors don't work on Christ. He's
too sharp; and if there's anybody who knows the truth about the elements of
communion; it's got to be him.

Buen Camino
/
It seems you are not prepared to listen to scripture either.

I want to write about this, and I need to say a word about figures of speech first. They add, they do not subtract from the meaning. And the verses in question in 1 Cor 11 employee a figure of speech. Figures are scientific and definite. They have names, categories, and never detracts from truth, but makes it more emphatic.
have purpose, they are:

Warm and vivid way of stating a literal truth,
make it more colorful, make truth more vivid, accent the subject

Figures of Speech:
attract attention
emphasize
make the conversation warm and vivid

Ex:

Say the ground is dry. This is literal fact. Say the ground is thirsty. This cannot be true. The ground has no feelings. It gives the truth color, makes it less boring, gives more color, but the as dry as the ground may be, it can never experience the human quality of thirst.

When a statement is contrary to known fact, it is sure to be Figure of speech
when a statement is contrary to Biblical doctrine, it is sure Figure of speech is being used
when rules of grammar are departed from, you can be sure it is Figure of speech

Now the verse in question is either quite literal, and bread is actually Christ's body in truth and in fact, and true worship includes the worship of bread because it is literally worshiping the body of Christ. Now this all hangs on Figure of speech. You can see how important it is to know if a Figure of speech is used there. How do I then know? Well, I do, because when I read the words the HS has given, I notice the actual rules of grammar are broken. And so it calls my attention up.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The word 'this' references the word 'bread' doesn't it? The Lord is saying, this bread is my body. I just point this out to you, the word 'bread' is masculine, and the word 'this' should agree with is and doesn't.

It is in the neuter gender and it is pulled over to agree with the word 'body'. Now this may sound technical to you, but anyone who reads Greek will notice this right away. And the HS who is writing it, has deliberately done it, to alarm us and show us that it is this Figure Metaphor that is being used.

This bread represents my body. That is the way to say it without the Figure Metaphor. Metaphor is only one of some 200 clearly defined and articulated Figures.

Ellipsis would be, 'this bread is like my body'.
Metaphor would be, 'This bread is my body'.


Hypocatastasis would be, 'My body is bread'.

Another Figure Metaphor the Lord used in the same way is, I am the door. I am everything a door represents, Christ is the way in.

In the Bible there are some Figures we still use today, while others haven't been used for thousands of years. Being that the bread is not literally Christ's body, but the Figure metaphor, we can see how important it is to be aware when a Figure is being used, to the intent we do not go astray from the truth which is being made known.


This is not literaly His body. He is saying this represents my body...
Actually Jesus didn't say "this is my body" because he didn't speak English.

Neither did he say "touto estin to soma mou” because he didn’t speak Greek.

He spoke Aramaic.

What you are actually complaining about could be imperfect translation by someone whose first language is Aramaic and not Greek. To base your theology on that is not wise.

The issue of whether “This is my body” is a figure of speech, a metaphor is valid. However a metaphor has to have a context within which it can be understood.

So Jesus saying, “I am the gate for the sheep.” (Jn 10:7) can be understood as a metaphor because the hearers were familiar with sheep gates and their functions. The same point applies to “I am the vine” (Jn 15:1) and “I am the light of the world” (Jn 8:12)

Not only is there a general context (gate, vine, light) that the hearers would have understood, but there is more specific context in the verses that surround those statements.

What then is the context for Jesus saying “This is my body”?
Is there a general context of Jews holding up what appears to be bread and claiming it is their body? NO
Is there a specific context in the surrounding verses? NO.

But there is a context for this novel statement in John’s gospel, specifically chapter 6, culminating in.
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (Jn 6:53-55)

And there is context in the Last Supper discourse also. In Jn 15:5 Jesus tells the apostles “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.”

How does Jesus abide in them and they in Jesus.

He has told them back in Jn 6:56 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.”
 

Foreigner

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*yawn*

What is all comes down to is this:

There are millions of born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist.

Translation: It is NOT necessary to take the Catholic Eucharist to know Christ, grown in Him, and be saved.

End. Of. Story.
 

Mungo

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What is all comes down to is this:

There are millions of born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist.

Translation: It is NOT necessary to take the Catholic Eucharist to know Christ, grown in Him, and be saved.

You said something like that in Post #20 & I replied in post #46


Oh right - you've been asleep

End. Of. Story.

No chance. It'll run again and again, if not in this thread in another one coming along soon. :)
 

Webers_Home

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It seems you are not prepared to listen to scripture either.

This is yet another syndrome associated with people who listen to ecclesiastic
celebrities instead of listening to Christ. You have equated not listening to
Thomas Aquinas' interpretations of Scripture as not listening to Scripture. I
encounter this kind of thinking all the time on not just the internet, but in
Sunday school too; which reminds me of an incident that took place during
the Lord's ministry.

†. Mtt 7:28-29 . . And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these
sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as
one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes were parrots; who had very little clue what they were talking
about most of the time, nor did they need to know what they were talking
about because they commonly preached from rabbinical commentaries that
they themselves didn't author; but simply copied and pasted, so to speak;
like you do with Thomas Aquinas.

But the Lord spoke as a prophet who got his intel straight from the horses'
mouth; which is why you really need to start listening to Christ instead of
ecclesiastic celebrities like Aquinas.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

Was God's Spirit ever upon Thomas Aquinas without measure or limit? I
seriously doubt it.

†. Col 1:18-19 . . God in all His fullness was pleased to dwell in Christ

Was God, in all His fullness, ever pleased to dwell in Thomas Aquinas? I
don't think so. But no, you go ahead; you keep on listening to, and quoting
from, Aquinas because it will give me something to look forward to at the
Great White Throne depicted at Rev 20:10-15 where I will thoroughly enjoy
your chagrin, and the Lord's reactions, when you start quoting an ecclesiastic
celebrity in your defense.

Buen Camino
/
 

Mungo

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This is yet another syndrome associated with people who listen to ecclesiastic
celebrities instead of listening to Christ. You have equated not listening to
Thomas Aquinas' interpretations of Scripture as not listening to Scripture. I
encounter this kind of thinking all the time on not just the internet, but in
Sunday school too; which reminds me of an incident that took place during
the Lord's ministry.

†. Mtt 7:28-29 . . And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these
sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as
one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes were parrots; who had very little clue what they were talking
about most of the time, nor did they need to know what they were talking
about because they commonly preached from rabbinical commentaries that
they themselves didn't author; but simply copied and pasted, so to speak;
like you do with Thomas Aquinas.

But the Lord spoke as a prophet who got his intel straight from the horses'
mouth; which is why you really need to start listening to Christ instead of
ecclesiastic celebrities like Aquinas.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

Was God's Spirit ever upon Thomas Aquinas without measure or limit? I
seriously doubt it.

†. Col 1:18-19 . . God in all His fullness was pleased to dwell in Christ

Was God, in all His fullness, ever pleased to dwell in Thomas Aquinas? I
don't think so. But no, you go ahead; you keep on listening to, and quoting
from, Aquinas because it will give me something to look forward to at the
Great White Throne depicted at Rev 20:10-15 where I will thoroughly enjoy
your chagrin, and the Lord's reactions, when you start quoting an ecclesiastic
celebrity in your defense.

Buen Camino
/

No, I gave you scripture. Thomas Aquinas was a bonus.

You just chose to ignore the scripture & focus on Thomas Aquinas.

Incidentally why do you call St. Thomas Aquinas an "ecclesiatical celebrity"?

This just a cheap put down of one of the greatest theologians of all time. His explanations are well worth reading. You could learn a lot from his writings.
 

Foreigner

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"What is all comes down to is this:
There are millions of born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist.
Translation: It is NOT necessary to take the Catholic Eucharist to know Christ, grown in Him, and be saved."
- Me

Mungo's response:
[font=Arial']
You said something like that in Post #20 & I replied in post #46
[/font]


[font=Arial']-- Yes you did. Your total deeply well-thought-out reply was - and I am quoting: "Not Proven." [/font]

[font=Arial']So - according to you - that means there are not "born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist."[/font]

[font=Arial']Yeah, thanks for clearing that up :D [/font]





[font=Arial'].[/font]
 

Mungo

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"What is all comes down to is this:
There are millions of born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist.
Translation: It is NOT necessary to take the Catholic Eucharist to know Christ, grown in Him, and be saved."
- Me

Mungo's response:


[font=Arial']-- Yes you did. Your total deeply well-thought-out reply was - and I am quoting: "Not Proven." [/font]

[font=Arial']So - according to you - that means there are not "born again, Jesus loving Christians around the world who are saved, serving God, sharing His Word, and leading others to Him that are NOT consuming the Catholic Eucharist."[/font]

[font=Arial']Yeah, thanks for clearing that up :D [/font]





[font=Arial'].[/font]

Let’s look at the truth rather than your lies:

Your statements in black, my replies in red.

1. The Catholic church teaches that if you do not partake in their version of Communion, you are not saved.

Where does the Catholic Church teach that?

Where does the Catholic Church teach that receiving the Eucharist is necessary for salvation?

Think about it. Where does the Catholic Church teach (for example) that children are damned until they are old enough to (and do) receive the Eucharist?


2. Millions of Christians the world over do not partake in the Catholic's definition of Communion.

That is true. But the Catholic Church does not say they are damned.


3. Since those Christians - if they truly gave their hearts to Jesus - are indeed saved…….

Not proven
 

Foreigner

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IN 1129 the Catholic church stated that the sacraments - including taking the Eucharist - are necessary for salvation.
They mistaken cited John 6:53-54 as the reason.

Today in the US the Catholic church has "massaged" that message to the point they are saying it is just much, much more difficult to see heaven if you do not take Communion, but as late as this year, Mexico, much of South America and Europe Catholics are still being told "No Eucharist, no salvation."

And your "Not Proven" comment about Christians around the world being saved even if they don't partake in the Catholic eucharist is still as ridiculous as when you first said it.
 

Mungo

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IN 1129 the Catholic church stated that the sacraments - including taking the Eucharist - are necessary for salvation.
They mistaken cited John 6:53-54 as the reason.

Today in the US the Catholic church has "massaged" that message to the point they are saying it is just much, much more difficult to see heaven if you do not take Communion, but as late as this year, Mexico, much of South America and Europe Catholics are still being told "No Eucharist, no salvation."

Typical anti-catholic Protestant. Lots of claims but no evidence to back it up.

Why should I take any notice of such allegations?

And your "Not Proven" comment about Christians around the world being saved even if they don't partake in the Catholic eucharist is still as ridiculous as when you first said it.
That is not what I said. It's what you heard.

The not proven is your claim that “Christians - if they truly gave their hearts to Jesus - are indeed saved…….”
 

Foreigner

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Typical anti-catholic Protestant. Lots of claims but no evidence to back it up.
Why should I take any notice of such allegations?

-- The better question should be, why should I care if you "take any notice" of such allegations?

I was taught that in Cathecism and a simple check of Catholic history on any number of Catholic web sites confirms it to be true.
If you don't want to take "any such notice" then don't. It's not like your opinion matters more than anyone else's.



That is not what I said. It's what you heard.
The not proven is your claim that “Christians - if they truly gave their hearts to Jesus - are indeed saved…….”

-- So you claim is it "Not proven" that if Christians have given their hearts to Jesus they are not saved?

God would take issue with your opinion. I however simply think you're not very bright.
 

Webers_Home

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IN 1129 the Catholic church stated that the sacraments - including
taking the Eucharist - are necessary for salvation.

Personally; I think Rome should stick to its original position; and here's
why.

Note the grammatical tense of the Lord's statement below. It's present
rather than future; indicating that when somebody correctly consumes his
flesh and blood, they're granted eternal life right then and there-- no delay,
and no waiting period.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.

Eternal life is a kind of life that can't die; which means that those who have
it are impervious to the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in
Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's not all. According to another of the Lord's statements-- located in the
gospel of John --people who don't have eternal life: 1) don't listen to Christ,
2) don't believe in God, 3) are in grave danger of eternal suffering, and 4)
abide in death.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Buen Camino
/
 
E

epouraniois

Guest
Greetings to Mungo, and really, everyone responding to my comments:

Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic. Yes, But The Holy Spirit inspired the Hebrews to write the Septuigent several hundred years prior to His earthly ministry because of the Hebrew people lacking the ability to know Hebrew well, due to extended captivity, due to disobediance. If it is good for the Holy Spirit to ensure we have the record in Greek, then it is good enough for me. These things are very basic.

Now, addressing some issues, I am not sure if some do not like the verses I quote and referrence, or if they do not like ME doing the referrencing of them. Either way, lets look at a few things. By the end of Acts, Paul was saying he had said nothing but that which Moses and the prophets did say. In fact, he was running around showing them, saying in effect, look, my kinsmen in the flesh - you are fulfilling the bad part of Scripture, repent, bear the fruit of repentance and receive the kingdom. Peter said much the same. The Holy Spirit was poured out for nearly 40 years, but did the kingdom promised to THEIR fathers come? No, it did not, rather, we read that they were blinded and that a new message was given by revelation, announcing the calling of a new assembly. And in the teachings there, the OT quotes all but vanish (5 or 6 quotes are used). That is a huge difference.

After the 12, and Paul sent the Word to all Israel, and each and every one of them had the opportunity to receive a bonified Miracle via the Holy Spirit, the last leaders of the Jews not only reject the kingdom offer presented during the Lord's earthly ministry and again throughout the Acts period, they divorce God. Yes, the word "departed" in Acts 28:25 is the Greek word for divorce. The word "departed" in 28:29 is the actual word departed and not the same as the one in v.25. So Paul quotes the most dreadful verse of Scripture, Isa. 6:9-10, and makes a tremendous statement, where we read for the first time in all of Scripture:
Acts:

28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
(The year is AD62, and Paul had been in chains for the hope of Israel, but now he is a prioner for the hope of you Gentiles (read Nations)).


And after this, the apostle revealed the mystery, which was 'hid in God', hid from generations and from ages, BUT NOW...

And it is revealed, according to Scripture, to you-wards:

Ephesians 3

3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery
(...)
3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed...



Eph.
2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2:13 But now...

It is in Ephesians where it is first made known that anyone would or could ever have the hope of going to heaven to be with the Lord there. And in this church there is no Jew and there is no Gentile. The Jew, if called into this company of believers, had to put aside his dispensational advantage, while at the same token, the gentile had to put aside his dispensational disadvantage.

Col.
1:25 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now...


I am not making it up or adding my thoughts to the word of truth, I am simply asking that you receive this word with all readiness of mind and search to see if it is so. That is not too much to ask. I would point out the obvious here, that the book of Hebrews is written to, well, the Hebrews. But even Paul had to lay aside all that he had once counted as 'gain' in order to reach for this high calling revealed in the prison epistles. The law, the Sabbaths, all of that belong particularly to the Hebrews. They were called out of all nations to be God's chosen channel of blessing to the nations, but now says the apostle, is revealed that gentiles have been blessed without the preeminence of Israel. This is what is happening now. We are not, as they were during the Acts, standing outside the synagogue waiting to hear Israel's message after they first have received it. No, something new has been introduced, something with different instructions and a different practice, something written to an super heavenly company of His choosing & calling, see Eph. 1:3-6, 2:6, &c &c.

Differences:

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

When we see these words, ‘For this cause’, we immediately realize that this refers to something that has gone before. And this is the case here, and especially referring to the two chapters before.


Paul has been describing a church here, that is reconciled, at peace, blessed far above all that is flesh, and the strife that is found in the flesh, and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone. And this building is growing together that it might be an habitation for the Spirit. There are immediately 5 things that are unique and readily discernible. . Abraham is absent, OT quotes no longer are the standard, angels are mentioned but once only to be set aside, because The Mystery is a new revelation. These first 5 things are different than anything else we’ve ever found in the Bible before:


1. Blessings that were promised are unique, because it is every blessing that is spiritual. That is different than they'd ever had before because they'd never had every blessing that is spiritual.

2. And the sphere of their enjoyment is unique, because the enjoyment is in heavenly places, whereas every blessing before this had always been spoken of as being enjoyed on the earth.

3. The period of choice is unique, because these were chosen before the overthrow of the world, whereas all other choosing had been since the overthrow.

4. The position is unique, made to sit together in heavenly places, in Christ. That is a high and unique position.

5. The unity is unique. Back in 2. 15, that the twain, the Jew and the Gentile, were created one new man.

It is all these things that Paul has in mind, when he starts out to say, “For this cause”. It is everything Paul has already been speaking about in the first two chapters of the first letter written after Israel takes her place amidst the nations, departing to have great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28.28, 29).

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God.

God chose an earthen vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what Paul did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God has completed His word to the world.

I can make a list of differences if you like, just ask. Search to see if it is so. Don't come down on me for quoting Scripture though, it is not productive.

Bless

RE: Communion:

It is evident that the vital truths of the epistle to the Hebrews were not yet well known. So God had not taken
away the `picture book' of the material illustrations (types and shadows) which Israel had had for so long. Thus
water baptism, which represented spiritual cleansing, was joined to repentance, but it did not teach baptismal
regeneration, for if it did, the New Testament would contradict itself. The precious blood of Christ alone is the basis
for the deliverance from sin and gives salvation.

The 3,000 who repented, wisely clung to the apostles' doctrine (the teaching which Peter had just given) and the
fellowship with one another and prayer. This fellowship was a very practical one, for verse 44 tells us that they had
`everything in common' that is they shared everything, their meals, their money which they had by selling their
possessions (verse 45). The `breaking of bread' was not celebrating communion, for this breaking of bread was a
Jewish idiom for a meal. The hard Jewish loaves had to be broken before being eaten. Thus we find the Lord Jesus,
when sharing a meal with the disciples, `broke bread' (; ). It was the same thing when Paul, before the shipwreck,
exhorted those on board to take a meal for their health :

`35After he (Paul) said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all.
Then he broke it and began to eat. 36They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves.' ().

So here in chapter two, `the converts broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts'
(verse 46). Some today, not understanding this, teach that they kept on taking the Lord's Supper and this is part of
the apostles' doctrine which must be kept now. But we read here in the Acts that believers not only ate together, but
sold their possessions and shared the money together (verses 44,45). We cannot help noticing that those who claim
to be copying the apostles' doctrine today seldom if ever do this. Why? This was just as much `apostles' doctrine' as
sharing a meal.

`To explain the breaking of bread as Holy communion is to pervert the plain meaning of words, and to mar
the picture of family life which the text places before us as the ideal of the early believers' (Page).

The daily breaking of bread at home surely refers to the regular meals at home and common meals `from house
to house'.

Excerpt from 'Acts of the Apostles' by Stewart Allen
 

Brother James

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I have never heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit inspired anyone to "write the Septuagint". The Septuagint is a Greek translation containing the books of the Bible that were originally written in Hebrew plus some other writings. Some of those "other" writings are accepted as scripture by the Roman Catholic church and some are not. There is no church or Jewish group on earth that considers the entire content of the Septuagint as being inspired scripture.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I have never heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit inspired anyone to "write the Septuagint". The Septuagint is a Greek translation containing the books of the Bible that were originally written in Hebrew plus some other writings. Some of those "other" writings are accepted as scripture by the Roman Catholic church and some are not. There is no church or Jewish group on earth that considers the entire content of the Septuagint as being inspired scripture.

Hi James .... Here is my understanding of the Septuagint .....

--The Hebrew OT was written in Hebrew (of course) and pretty much only accessed by Israel people

-- However more and more Jews were using Greek and a decision was made to translate the Hebrew OT into Greek

-- 72 individual translators were dispatched to 72 different locations (rooms) and told to each do a translation (without corresponding with each other).

--Turns out that all 72 translations were pretty much all exactly the same.

--Maybe not inspired , but as close as you can get.

--My personal view is that God set that whole thing up in advance of the arrival of Christ .... because Greek was to be the common manuscript language in early Christianity. (New Testament)

-- The point being that with the Hebrew translated to Greek before Christ arrived ..... all the (Hebrew) prophecies could not be modified after Christ arrived.

--I feel this is extremely important .... because otherwise the unbelieving Hebrews could claim that the original OT did not proclaim the Christ as being Jesus. They could fiddle with interpretation from Hebrew to Greek.

--The way it worked out , they could not alter the Greek translation. It had already been completely accepted. Then came Christ.

Best wishes
Arnie
 

Mungo

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-- So you claim is it "Not proven" that if Christians have given their hearts to Jesus they are not saved?

God would take issue with your opinion. I however simply think you're not very bright.

When Catholics claim something they are always told to "prove it from the Bible"

When Protestants claim something they seem to think that no evidence of their claims are required.

Unless you provide some evidence it's just your opinion.

Greetings to Mungo, and really, everyone responding to my comments:

Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic. Yes, But The Holy Spirit inspired the Hebrews to write the Septuigent several hundred years prior to His earthly ministry because of the Hebrew people lacking the ability to know Hebrew well, due to extended captivity, due to disobediance. If it is good for the Holy Spirit to ensure we have the record in Greek, then it is good enough for me. These things are very basic.

Now, addressing some issues, I am not sure if some do not like the verses I quote and referrence, or if they do not like ME doing the referrencing of them. Either way, lets look at a few things. By the end of Acts, Paul was saying he had said nothing but that which Moses and the prophets did say. In fact, he was running around showing them, saying in effect, look, my kinsmen in the flesh - you are fulfilling the bad part of Scripture, repent, bear the fruit of repentance and receive the kingdom. Peter said much the same. The Holy Spirit was poured out for nearly 40 years, but did the kingdom promised to THEIR fathers come? No, it did not, rather, we read that they were blinded and that a new message was given by revelation, announcing the calling of a new assembly. And in the teachings there, the OT quotes all but vanish (5 or 6 quotes are used). That is a huge difference.

After the 12, and Paul sent the Word to all Israel, and each and every one of them had the opportunity to receive a bonified Miracle via the Holy Spirit, the last leaders of the Jews not only reject the kingdom offer presented during the Lord's earthly ministry and again throughout the Acts period, they divorce God. Yes, the word "departed" in Acts 28:25 is the Greek word for divorce. The word "departed" in 28:29 is the actual word departed and not the same as the one in v.25. So Paul quotes the most dreadful verse of Scripture, Isa. 6:9-10, and makes a tremendous statement, where we read for the first time in all of Scripture:
Acts:

28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
(The year is AD62, and Paul had been in chains for the hope of Israel, but now he is a prioner for the hope of you Gentiles (read Nations)).


And after this, the apostle revealed the mystery, which was 'hid in God', hid from generations and from ages, BUT NOW...

And it is revealed, according to Scripture, to you-wards:

Ephesians 3

3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery
(...)
3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed...



Eph.
2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2:13 But now...

It is in Ephesians where it is first made known that anyone would or could ever have the hope of going to heaven to be with the Lord there. And in this church there is no Jew and there is no Gentile. The Jew, if called into this company of believers, had to put aside his dispensational advantage, while at the same token, the gentile had to put aside his dispensational disadvantage.

Col.
1:25 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now...


I am not making it up or adding my thoughts to the word of truth, I am simply asking that you receive this word with all readiness of mind and search to see if it is so. That is not too much to ask. I would point out the obvious here, that the book of Hebrews is written to, well, the Hebrews. But even Paul had to lay aside all that he had once counted as 'gain' in order to reach for this high calling revealed in the prison epistles. The law, the Sabbaths, all of that belong particularly to the Hebrews. They were called out of all nations to be God's chosen channel of blessing to the nations, but now says the apostle, is revealed that gentiles have been blessed without the preeminence of Israel. This is what is happening now. We are not, as they were during the Acts, standing outside the synagogue waiting to hear Israel's message after they first have received it. No, something new has been introduced, something with different instructions and a different practice, something written to an super heavenly company of His choosing & calling, see Eph. 1:3-6, 2:6, &c &c.

Differences:

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

When we see these words, ‘For this cause’, we immediately realize that this refers to something that has gone before. And this is the case here, and especially referring to the two chapters before.


Paul has been describing a church here, that is reconciled, at peace, blessed far above all that is flesh, and the strife that is found in the flesh, and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone. And this building is growing together that it might be an habitation for the Spirit. There are immediately 5 things that are unique and readily discernible. . Abraham is absent, OT quotes no longer are the standard, angels are mentioned but once only to be set aside, because The Mystery is a new revelation. These first 5 things are different than anything else we’ve ever found in the Bible before:


1. Blessings that were promised are unique, because it is every blessing that is spiritual. That is different than they'd ever had before because they'd never had every blessing that is spiritual.

2. And the sphere of their enjoyment is unique, because the enjoyment is in heavenly places, whereas every blessing before this had always been spoken of as being enjoyed on the earth.

3. The period of choice is unique, because these were chosen before the overthrow of the world, whereas all other choosing had been since the overthrow.

4. The position is unique, made to sit together in heavenly places, in Christ. That is a high and unique position.

5. The unity is unique. Back in 2. 15, that the twain, the Jew and the Gentile, were created one new man.

It is all these things that Paul has in mind, when he starts out to say, “For this cause”. It is everything Paul has already been speaking about in the first two chapters of the first letter written after Israel takes her place amidst the nations, departing to have great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28.28, 29).

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God.

God chose an earthen vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what Paul did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God has completed His word to the world.

I can make a list of differences if you like, just ask. Search to see if it is so. Don't come down on me for quoting Scripture though, it is not productive.

Bless

RE: Communion:

It is evident that the vital truths of the epistle to the Hebrews were not yet well known. So God had not taken
away the `picture book' of the material illustrations (types and shadows) which Israel had had for so long. Thus
water baptism, which represented spiritual cleansing, was joined to repentance, but it did not teach baptismal
regeneration, for if it did, the New Testament would contradict itself. The precious blood of Christ alone is the basis
for the deliverance from sin and gives salvation.

The 3,000 who repented, wisely clung to the apostles' doctrine (the teaching which Peter had just given) and the
fellowship with one another and prayer. This fellowship was a very practical one, for verse 44 tells us that they had
`everything in common' that is they shared everything, their meals, their money which they had by selling their
possessions (verse 45). The `breaking of bread' was not celebrating communion, for this breaking of bread was a
Jewish idiom for a meal. The hard Jewish loaves had to be broken before being eaten. Thus we find the Lord Jesus,
when sharing a meal with the disciples, `broke bread' (; ). It was the same thing when Paul, before the shipwreck,
exhorted those on board to take a meal for their health :

`35After he (Paul) said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all.
Then he broke it and began to eat. 36They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves.' ().

So here in chapter two, `the converts broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts'
(verse 46). Some today, not understanding this, teach that they kept on taking the Lord's Supper and this is part of
the apostles' doctrine which must be kept now. But we read here in the Acts that believers not only ate together, but
sold their possessions and shared the money together (verses 44,45). We cannot help noticing that those who claim
to be copying the apostles' doctrine today seldom if ever do this. Why? This was just as much `apostles' doctrine' as
sharing a meal.

`To explain the breaking of bread as Holy communion is to pervert the plain meaning of words, and to mar
the picture of family life which the text places before us as the ideal of the early believers' (Page).

The daily breaking of bread at home surely refers to the regular meals at home and common meals `from house
to house'.

Excerpt from 'Acts of the Apostles' by Stewart Allen

The breaking of bread was the name the early Church gave the Eucharistic act:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” (Mt 26:26)
While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” (Mk 14:22)
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body” (Lk 22:19)
the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you” (1Cor 11:23-24)
It was integral to the act at the Last Supper not a reference to a normal meal at home.

Paul said:
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. (1Cor 11:29)

And as Luke reports it was in the breaking of the bread that the two disciples at Emmaus recognised Jesus.
And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. (Lk 24:30-31).
He vanished from their physical sight but they recognised (discerned) him in the Eucharist.

When Acts 2:42 says “And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship (koinonia = communion), to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” It is a reference to the Eucharist. It is still the basic pattern of the Catholic Mass.

The bread which we break, is it not the communion [koinonia] of the body of Christ? (KJV)
(1Cor 10:16)


The Didache

Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one.
Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice.
For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]"
(Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

This is not a common meal. This is sacrificial language - the sacrifice of the Mass.
 

Foreigner

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Unless you provide some evidence it's just your opinion.

-- Just to be sure I have this straight: my statement "Since those Christians - if they truly gave their hearts to Jesus - are indeed saved……." is just my opinion unless I can provide you some evidence that is true?

lol priceless.

I hate to paint you into a corner, but you make it too easy: Just how exactly can a person possibly be saved if Jesus is NOT in their heart?

As I said, none too bright. :lol:
 

Webers_Home

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Just how exactly can a person possibly be saved if Jesus
is NOT in their heart?

They can't-- nobody can.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

There are people out and about wearing the Christian label who are just as
christless as can be. Why? Because they don't have eternal life.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

And why don't they have eternal life? Because they have not yet correctly
consumed the Lord's flesh and blood.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.

If, and whenever, they finally get around to correctly consuming his flesh and
blood, they will have Christ dwelling in their hearts.

†. John 6:55 . . He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me,
and I in him.

Buen Camino
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