What Is The Purpose Of Taking Communion ?

[Foreigner]

LOL, you're preaching to the choir, big guy.

Tell that to Mungo. He is the one asking for proof that if a person has Jesus in his heart he is actually saved.

He is granting the fact that Jesus dwelling within the person. He apparently doesn't think that is proof of salvation.

Scriptures also says, "It is by Grace you are saved, through faith." It also states, "Not by works, lest any man boast."

You are actually making my point for me.

 

[Mungo]

-- Just to be sure I have this straight: my statement "Since those Christians - if they truly gave their hearts to Jesus - are indeed saved……." is just my opinion unless I can provide you some evidence that is true?

lol priceless.

I hate to paint you into a corner, but you make it too easy: Just how exactly can a person possibly be saved if Jesus is NOT in their heart?

As I said, none too bright. :lol:

You are the one who made the claim. You provide the evidence.

Where in scripture does it say "ask Jesus truly into your heart and you will be saved"?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’” (Mt 7:21-23)

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?” (Lk 6:46)

Jesus founded a Church (Mt 16:18); he founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)

That Church is headed by Christ (Col 1:18), but he appointed Peter to be the visible head on earth (Mt 16:18-19), to be the universal shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) of Christ’s one fold (Jn 10:16). This is the Catholic Church

He gave his authority to the leaders of that Church along with a mission.
“All authority (all power of rule) in heaven, and on earth has been given to Me. Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (Mt 28:18-20 – Amplified Bible).

He laid out certain principles of authority:
Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me. (Lk 10:16)#


Where does rejecting Jesus' Church fit into this? Is it not listening toi Jesus?

Where does starting your own Church fit into this? Is that doing the will of Jesus' Father in heaven?

 

[aspen]

'asking Jesus into your heart'? Another contradiction brought to you by sola scriptura.

 

[Foreigner]

You are the one who made the claim. You provide the evidence.
Where in scripture does it say "ask Jesus truly into your heart and you will be saved"?

-- I understand you are being intentionaly obtuse Mungo baby, but you do realize that if it isn't true then you yourself are not saved....right?

That means you either already accept that what I said is true, or you are not really sure if you are saved.

I would wait to let that paint dry before trying to leave the corner.

 

[Brother James]

What exactly does it mean to "ask Jesus into your heart"? That a religious phrase I've heard all my life, but I don't know where it came from either. It's kind of in the same category of "repeat this prayer after me and then you'll be born again and go to heaven". There is believing, there is saving faith in Christ, there is working out one's own salvation, there is the second birth, and many other things that scripture connects with salvation. I don't see any where in the bible where somebody was saved because they repeated a prayer or asked Jesus into their heart.

 

[Foreigner]

I means that you submit to Jesus, ask His forgiveness, and ask him to be your Lord and Savior.
That then invites the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you.

 

[Mungo]

-- I understand you are being intentionaly obtuse Mungo baby, but you do realize that if it isn't true then you yourself are not saved....right?

Wrong

I means that you submit to Jesus, ask His forgiveness, and ask him to be your Lord and Savior.
That then invites the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you.

As usual Foreigner claims things but provides no evidence.

Have you ever tried backing up your claims with some kind of evidence, preferable scriptural since you are a Protestant and believe in sola scriptura?

 

[Foreigner]

Wrong

- I agree, yes you are

As usual Foreigner claims things but provides no evidence.

Have you ever tried backing up your claims with some kind of evidence, preferable scriptural since you are a Protestant and believe in sola scriptura?

-- Poor Mungo. Actually unsure about whether you are truly saved if Jesus lives in your heart.

 

[Mungo]

-- Poor Mungo. Actually unsure about whether you are truly saved if Jesus lives in your heart.

Poor Foreigner - unable to back up his claims.

 

[Foreigner]

Poor Mungo. Unable to realize whether he is saved or not.

Pssst....I would be glad to provide scriptural proof if you would admit you already know I am right.
But since your childishness would not allow for it....






,

 

[Brother James]

I means that you submit to Jesus, ask His forgiveness, and ask him to be your Lord and Savior.
That then invites the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you.

Do you have any scriptural reference for this process? I don't know anything about invitations or asking Jesus to be something. He is Lord and Savior whether I ask Him to be those things or not. Where, in any example of salvation we read in scripture, did anybody do these things? I read of faith, I read of believing, I read of repentance, all kinds of things. This all sounds like stuff people have made up in their religious language that did not come out of the Bible. Actually, I think it confuses things. We need to focus on redemption, salvation, justification, sanctification, and what the bible teaches on those things. Praying a prayer to ask Jesus into your heart is not found anywhere in the bible.

 

[Foreigner]

James, tell me please, if you witness to someone who wants to know about Jesus, and he wants to know how he can be sure he is saved, what would you tell him?

 

[Brother James]

First I tell him that he is a sinner and in need of a savior. Until a person recognizes their lost condition they cannot be saved. The person who believes, "I have lived the best life I can, I've strived to be a good person, and when I did I have nothing to be ashamed of" is hopelessly lost until they know that they are a sinner and their sin separates them from God. Plenty of scriptures to make that point, Then I introduce them to who Jesus Christ is. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is singularly about the person of Jesus Christ. Without Him, salvation is impossible. I explain that that void they have felf for so long is a longing to know Him. God desires fellowship with His creation. Man's greatest aim is to glorify God and enjoy Him for ever. They need to really and truly know what Christ has done for them, and how that reconciles them to God our Father. And then I explain that in order for them to enjoy Him forever, they have to believe that Jesus died for their sins and then rose again. They must repent of their sin, turning away, and become a follower of Jesus. They must find faith in Him who is our only Savior. They must deny themselves and place their entire faith in Him alone. And then I suggest he read the books of John and Romans first, and then the gosepels and the epistles. I tell them that it was Jesus Himself who said we have to be born again, and that this is a work God does. Just as we do not give birth to ourselves in the natural, we do not give birth to ourselves spiritually. And then I leave the rest to God. I do not describe a work or ritual for them to perform in order to get this salvation. That is God's business to save them. In fact, there is nothing whatsoever under the sun that they can do, no words they can speak, and no ritual they can perform to get this salvation from God. It is His free gift to them, and something I cannot bring about.

Certainly if a person sincerely seeks God and prays to Him, God hears them. That is the natural thing for a person to do. Sometimes the only prayer possible is "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." That is a good thing for a sinner (and a Christian, who is a sinner saved by grace) to pray. A sincere seeker of God will never be left in the dark.

 

[Foreigner]

Now, if I were a smart aleck, I could ask you to show me a scriptural process for every single thing you just told me.

Here is what I said: "I means that you submit to Jesus, ask His forgiveness, and ask him to be your Lord and Savior.
That then invites the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you."

For some reason you appear to believe that I am talking an exact formula, protocol or procedure that must be followed or else you are not saved.

When I have shared with people and they have asked what they must do now I ask them to pray a prayer with me.

There is no exact wording or phraseology, but the prayer includes acknowledgment that Jesus is Lord, that you are a sinner, and you want His forgiveness and you desire Him to live inside you.

Saying "Jesus please be my Lord and Savior" or "Please come into my heart" or "I surrender my life to you" or "from now on, all I have is yours" or an internal decision that your are going to live for Jesus with all that you are, all accomplish the same thing.

And yes, Jesus is Lord and Savior already, but that doesn't mean everyone believes or desires that to be. Asking Him to be your Lord and Savior is acknowledgement of who He is and your surrender to Him.

Asking Jesus to come into your heart is basically asking the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you.

MUST that all be done?
If a person agrees with you and says they want to be a Christian, ensuring they understand what they are saying is important.
If they acknowledge that it means they will try no longer sin, understand they must seek forgiveness from God for their sins and will now do everything they can to serve Jesus, then Voila! Mission accomplished.

At that point saying the Christian version of the Boy Scout's Pledge isn't necessary to ensure you have just joined the family.


When I got saved, it was because my best friend - who had become a Christian before me, suffered my insults, ridicule and rejection of him and his new found faith - prayed for me and asked God to prepare my heart.

In a conversation with him that went well past 1:00am one morning, the Holy Spirit finally spoke to my heart and I asked my friend how I can have what he has; a relationship with Jesus.

He said I should pray this prayer with him: "Jesus I know I am sinner. Please forgive my sins and come live inside me. I ask you to be my Lord and Savior. In your name I pray, Amen."

One heartfelt prayer and badda bing - badda boom, I am a Born Again Christian.

Were those EXACT words necessary? Of course not.
Would I have been saved if I had simply decided quietly and internally that I was going to follow Jesus with all my heart? Of course.

But almost every single solitary person I have witnessed to or seen witnessed to has come to a point where they wish to accept Jesus and ask, what should they do now.

A verbal acknowledgement such as that prayer brings it home for them.

I personally believe that God wants to hear you acknowledge him and the role you wish Him to have in your life.

Although the scripture in James where it says "You have no received because you have not asked" isn't talking specifically about this, I do believe that the thought applies.




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[Mungo]

Now, if I were a smart aleck, I could ask you to show me a scriptural process for every single thing you just told me.

Here is what I said: "I means that you submit to Jesus, ask His forgiveness, and ask him to be your Lord and Savior.
That then invites the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you."

For some reason you appear to believe that I am talking an exact formula, protocol or procedure that must be followed or else you are not saved.

When I have shared with people and they have asked what they must do now I ask them to pray a prayer with me.

There is no exact wording or phraseology, but the prayer includes acknowledgment that Jesus is Lord, that you are a sinner, and you want His forgiveness and you desire Him to live inside you.

Saying "Jesus please be my Lord and Savior" or "Please come into my heart" or "I surrender my life to you" or "from now on, all I have is yours" or an internal decision that your are going to live for Jesus with all that you are, all accomplish the same thing.

And yes, Jesus is Lord and Savior already, but that doesn't mean everyone believes or desires that to be. Asking Him to be your Lord and Savior is acknowledgement of who He is and your surrender to Him.

Asking Jesus to come into your heart is basically asking the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you.

MUST that all be done?
If a person agrees with you and says they want to be a Christian, ensuring they understand what they are saying is important.
If they acknowledge that it means they will try no longer sin, understand they must seek forgiveness from God for their sins and will now do everything they can to serve Jesus, then Voila! Mission accomplished.

At that point saying the Christian version of the Boy Scout's Pledge isn't necessary to ensure you have just joined the family.


When I got saved, it was because my best friend - who had become a Christian before me, suffered my insults, ridicule and rejection of him and his new found faith - prayed for me and asked God to prepare my heart.

In a conversation with him that went well past 1:00am one morning, the Holy Spirit finally spoke to my heart and I asked my friend how I can have what he has; a relationship with Jesus.

He said I should pray this prayer with him: "Jesus I know I am sinner. Please forgive my sins and come live inside me. I ask you to be my Lord and Savior. In your name I pray, Amen."

One heartfelt prayer and badda bing - badda boom, I am a Born Again Christian.

Were those EXACT words necessary? Of course not.
Would I have been saved if I had simply decided quietly and internally that I was going to follow Jesus with all my heart? Of course.

But almost every single solitary person I have witnessed to or seen witnessed to has come to a point where they wish to accept Jesus and ask, what should they do now.

A verbal acknowledgement such as that prayer brings it home for them.

I personally believe that God wants to hear you acknowledge him and the role you wish Him to have in your life.

Although the scripture in James where it says "You have no received because you have not asked" isn't talking specifically about this, I do believe that the thought applies.




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As I posted in the Why are Catholics so bad thread, I came axcross this on a Protestant Wweb site


You Receive Jesus Christ Through Prayer

He is now standing at the door of your heart…can you hear Him?

Revelations 3:20 says, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

It does not have to be exactly like this, but here is a sample prayer.

Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank you for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me into the kind of person you want me to be.


CELEBRATE!...as you stand as a new person in the eyes of God. The old sin and shame are gone and you are ready to discover your purpose in this life. Begin to walk with God daily by reading the bible and fellowshipping with other believers. Let the spirit of God work in and through you as you begin this new life.

THis is unscriptural nonesense.

I'm not saying that praying Jesus isn't a good thing to do, but the idea that this is salvation is just not scriptural.

 

[Brother James]

Now, if I were a smart aleck, I could ask you to show me a scriptural process for every single thing you just told me.

And I could do so. It would take some work, but if it is important I will do it.

What I have objected to is the religious language we have invented to make a process out of salvation. You know, "with every head bowed and every eye closed, raise your hand up high where I can see it, now repeat after me... and voila, you're saved." I don't know anything about asking Jesus into my heart, though I suppose there's nothing wrong with that kind of terminology. It seems very sectarian to me, though. It's language that gets into people's heads such that when they hear Christians from other traditions who use other words, they question whether those others are really Christians or not. Many people were saved in scripture where we are not told of any praying. No invitation to Jesus into their hearts. As I said, nothing wrong with a prayer. "Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" seems to acknowlege I'm a sinner, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that I'm trusting that He has the power to have mercy and save me. But it's not a formula. It's sincere. any time a person comes to the place of acknowledging their sin and puts their trust and faith in Jesus Christ as the solution to their separation from God, He will save them. The path to God is the same for a Catholic, a Baptist, a Pentecostal, or a Coptic Christian. Even Methodists... just not as many

 

[Mungo]

IN 1129 the Catholic church stated that the sacraments - including taking the Eucharist - are necessary for salvation.
They mistaken cited John 6:53-54 as the reason.

FYI
I’ve tracked this down. 1129 is not a date but is the paragraph number in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

It states
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.[sup]51[/sup] "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. the Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. the fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature[sup]52[/sup] by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.”

The paper copy has necessary for salvation italicised and the reference 51 is to footnote 51 which refers to the Council of Trent.

The term necessary for salvation therefore needs to be understood in the terms of the statements of the Council of Trent.

The relevant statement from the Council of Trent is Canon IV from Session Seven – The Decree on The Sacraments:
"If any one says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous; and that without the sacraments or the desire of them men obtain from God the grace of justification through faith alone, although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each person; anathema sit."

Note particularly the phrases “or the desire of them” and “although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each person”

John 6:53-54 is not cited in the Catechism or the Council of Trent

 

[Foreigner]

Informative post, Mungo.

I was wrong with the date. In my defense, I got that date from Bishop Lawrence Harold Welsch in the 90s on the three seperate occasions I heard him speak in Minneapolis.

I also appreciate you indicating that the Council of Trent points out that the sacriments are not needed for salvation. That will come as unpleasant news to people like Neophyte, but gives further evidence that there are millions of Christians around the world who love Jesus, are saved, and have never once participated in the taking of the Catholic Eucharist.

 

[Mungo]

Informative post, Mungo.

I was wrong with the date. In my defense, I got that date from Bishop Lawrence Harold Welsch in the 90s on the three seperate occasions I heard him speak in Minneapolis.

I also appreciate you indicating that the Council of Trent points out that the sacriments are not needed for salvation. That will come as unpleasant news to people like Neophyte, but gives further evidence that there are millions of Christians around the world who love Jesus, are saved, and have never once participated in the taking of the Catholic Eucharist.

You seem to be misunderstanding what Trent said.

First of all:
"If any one says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous....... anathema sit.[let them be anathema]"
In other words anyone who says that is wrong.

But
"If any one says ......that without the sacraments or the desire of them men obtain from God the grace of justification through faith alone...... anathema sit.
This is particularly directed at Baptism where it is recognised that "Baptism of desire" brings the fruit of the sacrament without having had the actual sacramental baptism. A particular example are those due to receive baptism but die (e.g. martyred) before they are able to be sacramentally baptised. It is aimed (I think) at those who say that faith alone justifies and baptism is unnecessary.

"although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each person"

This does not mean that sacraments are unnecessary as a general statement but that there are some exceptions. Sacraments are the normative way that God gives us the grace of salvation, but God is not bound by his sacraments. Also some sacraments such as matrimony and Holy Orders are obviously entirely optional.

 

[Webers_Home]

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People who fail to correctly consume the Lord's flesh and blood are lifeless; viz: dead.

†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the
Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

People without life in them are eo ipso omitted from the book of life. Consequently; they
will be terminated in a special reservoir of liquefied flame.

†. Rev 20:15 . . If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown
into the lake of fire.

That information is reported in the grammatical past tense because John was given a
glimpse into the future and saw for himself the lifeless dead being executed by a method
somewhat akin to burning at the stake-- and all because they failed to correctly consume
the Lord's flesh and blood.

Buen Camino
/