What is the reason for the strange transition in Matthew 10?

[shepherdsword]

I once saw a vision in which the ones sent by Jesus Christ included both a man and a woman, and in that vision, there were not only twelve male disciples.

Thus, I have also been curious whether the vision I saw aligns with the Bible, as it seems to me that the Bible only mentions twelve male disciples.

Your vision was probably not referring to Mt 10 but to something else.

 

[ScottA]

As I showed in the other thread.

I am of course referring to temporal time.

Much love!

The 144,000

24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The great tribulation

40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The sheep/goats judgment

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Those things were all future when He said them, only not to be in the distant future...as many believe. To the contrary, regarding Israel--which is the immediate context--Jesus addressed "you" of "this generation" regarding "the things which must shortly take place."

Of which there are many, many supporting passages.

Jesus did elaborate in general terms saying “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." However, the "therefore" is there for--referring to the 12 and what would occur in their own time, saying "you" as clarification of whom He was speaking of. In other words, the terms which Jesus gave to the 12 would be required also of all who would follow "even to the ends of the earth"--but still, the limit for the 12 and His return was specific to the 12 whom He sent specifically out to the house of Israel--as during their lifetime.

But these distinctions, as I have stated it--although they are clear enough and confirmed in much of scripture--have not been what was believed or taught for these past 2,000 years. I understand that. But do you understand that what has been believed and taught is the kind of strong logic and belief, that would also rightfully be called "strong" if "false"--which was also foretold and written? And knowing that "strong" "false" doctrines were to be taught...is it wise to not allow that the same words can be seen as meaning something completely different? Are you willing to stand and say, "There is no other meaning possible to the words of scripture on this matter, than what I have believed?"

If you do--everyone for the past 2,000 years would agree with you. Is that the kind of agreement you value, or the kind Jesus said, you would "not expect?"

 

[ScottA]

The fact is that the disciples returned but not having been brought before kings and such.

Some were brought before "kings"--even the King of Kings.

 

[Wick Stick]

Do you think they were sent out 2 by 2s on a permanent mission pre-resurrection? They obviously had to return and finish their training before Christ died.

You're making an inference, then?

I read the chapter as an ongoing commission to evangelize.

 

[marks]

Are you willing to stand and say, "There is no other meaning possible to the words of scripture on this matter, than what I have believed?"

This would apply to all. Including you.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

This would apply to all. Including you.

Much love!

I am glad you at least see it that way. But there is one exception: There is that possibility that some actually "know" the meaning of the words by the One who is true. But I don't say so to cast doubt, but faith.

But I was hoping...and perhaps you will consider it...that you will equally take serious those things that have been written that could be defined differently--and also consider the great precedence and example we now have of the Priests and Pharisees, who were so close but went with what seemed right, but was not. Indeed, there is a time to hold on tight, and also a time to hold on loosely.

 

[marks]

and also consider the great precedence and example we now have of the Priests and Pharisees, who were so close but went with what seemed right, but was not. Indeed, there is a time to hold on tight, and also a time to hold on loosely.

Were the leaders of the Jews interested in truth or in maintaining their position?

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

You're making an inference, then?

I read the chapter as an ongoing commission to evangelize.

More like a logical extrapolation. How could they be sent out 2 by 2 in an ongoing mission before the crucifixion, resurrection and the great commission? All 12 were at the last supper so that mission in 10 1-16 had to end sometime. Now I agree that 17-33 is ongoing but there lies the transition I was speaking of.

 

[ScottA]

Were the leaders of the Jews interested in truth or in maintaining their position?

Much love!

Perhaps some were even only there for the food also. But seriously, they as much as said they were chosen--sons of Abraham--and therefore in alignment with the truth. I am sure they "believed" that.

 

[marks]

Perhaps some were even only there for the food also. But seriously, they as much as said they were chosen--sons of Abraham--and therefore in alignment with the truth. I am sure they "believed" that.

The heart is certainly deceptive!

Much love!

 

[Button]

Ecc. 1:9, 3:15 KJB.

Mt 10:1-16 starts out with Jesus sending the disciples out two by two on a mission in their time. He tells them to heal the sick, raise the dead ect..
However, there is a strange transition to what looks like the end times in vs 17-33. What is your view on this?

Just to help with context.

Matthew 10 - The Twelve Apostles

And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother...

biblehub.com

Matthew 10
Sheep among Wolves
(2 Timothy 1:3–12)

16Behold, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves; therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17But beware of men, for they will hand you over to their councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On My account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they hand you over, do not worry about how to respond or what to say. In that hour you will be given what to say. 20For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rise against their parents and have them put to death. 22You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for a disciple to be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul,f how much more the members of his household!

Fear God Alone
(Luke 12:4–7)

26So do not be afraid of them. For there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, and nothing hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops.

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.g

29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?h Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Confessing Christ
(Luke 12:8–12)

32Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

 

[Davy]

Mt 10:1-16 starts out with Jesus sending the disciples out two by two on a mission in their time. He tells them to heal the sick, raise the dead ect..
However, there is a strange transition to what looks like the end times in vs 17-33. What is your view on this?

That Matthew 10:17-33 section is about Christ's disciples being delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus against Satan's host. That is also one of the markers for the future events leading up to the "great tribulation" per Mark 13.

The Holy Spirit is going to speak through Christ's servants especially at the end of this world. The whole world will hear it, and will not be able to gainsay against it, because it will be The Holy Spirit speaking. That future event will be one of the ways that will start the downfall of Satan's beast kingdom structure on the earth in the last days. And it is about the "two candlesticks" prophesying for 1260 days per Revelation 11 along with God's "two witnesses" (per Jesus in Rev.1, the candlesticks represent the 7 Churches).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mt 10:1-16 starts out with Jesus sending the disciples out two by two on a mission in their time. He tells them to heal the sick, raise the dead ect..
However, there is a strange transition to what looks like the end times in vs 17-33. What is your view on this?

Matt 10.
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Many will not like my answer on this because I've been sharing this for a long time, and I haven't always been well-received. But I believe some of these elements, which are also part of the Olivet Discourse, refer not to the endtimes, but rather, to the immediate generation.

"This generation will not pass away unless all of these things happen 1st" refers to the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans and the destruction of the Temple, which happened in 70 AD. All of that happened in Jesus' generation, notwithstanding it was late in that generation, about 40 years later.

"All of the things" Jesus spoke of obviously did not include Jesus' Coming, even though he was asked about that too, and answered that particular question. No, Jesus' primary focus was on his declaration that "not one stone" of the Temple would remain standing, and that before this event happened, his disciples would see early warning signs, which he called "birth pains."

They would include rumors of approaching wars, signs that God was unhappy with the Roman world, including earthquakes and signs in the weather. Furthermore, there would be the sign of increasing wickedness among God's People, the Jews, including their persecution of Christians. This called for imminent national judgment.

So, all of these things presaged the main event, which was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In the meantime Jesus warned his disciples of what they would experience as they ministered his Gospel. They would suffer a measure of persecution even as they prevailed in their ministry.

When Jesus spoke of his "coming," I think he was speaking of sending his disciples out as a vanguard, to prepare the way before he arrived at an area with his full presence. He was bringing and being the standard of eternal deliverance, the source of righteousness and healing. It was not, I think, a reference to Jesus' eschatological Coming.

 

[ScottA]

The heart is certainly deceptive!

Much love!

Unfortunately, history has repeated among the Church ‍

 

[Davy]

Matt 10.
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Many will not like my answer on this because I've been sharing this for a long time, and I haven't always been well-received. But I believe some of these elements, which are also part of the Olivet Discourse, refer not to the endtimes, but rather, to the immediate generation.

Because Matthew 10 is of a time in the disciple's days, and the same kind of warning exists in Christ's Olivet discourse about the end, per Matthew 13, that suggests what? It suggests this delivering up of Christ's servants speaking by The Holy Spirit began after Pentecost, and has continued, and will especially be a highlight event during the coming "great tribulation". Peter quoted the end of Joel 2 about this on Pentecost day, showing a time just before the "day of the Lord", which is the day Jesus returns.

"This generation will not pass away unless all of these things happen 1st" refers to the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans and the destruction of the Temple, which happened in 70 AD. All of that happened in Jesus' generation, notwithstanding it was late in that generation, about 40 years later.

Not about 70 A.D. That generation has been long... gone.

Jesus pointed to the generation that will SEE "all these things", meaning the SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return that He was giving there in His Olivet discourse. Those SIGNS He gave go way past 70 A.D. So what you have succumbed to is just another doctrine of men.

"All of the things" Jesus spoke of obviously did not include Jesus' Coming, even though he was asked about that too, and answered that particular question. No, Jesus' primary focus was on his declaration that "not one stone" of the Temple would remain standing, and that before this event happened, his disciples would see early warning signs, which he called "birth pains."

They would include rumors of approaching wars, signs that God was unhappy with the Roman world, including earthquakes and signs in the weather. Furthermore, there would be the sign of increasing wickedness among God's People, the Jews, including their persecution of Christians. This called for imminent national judgment.
....

Jesus called the time of kingdom against kingdom, war, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, as the "beginning of sorrows", a time immediately PRIOR to the "great tribulation". In Matthew 24:6 Jesus showed that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, the END IS NOT YET, meaning the "great tribulation" is not yet.

That means when all wars have stopped, that's when to watch out, because will signal the time of "great tribulation", which is to be a time of WORLD PEACE, though a fake peace.

It is the Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers who especially use the scare tactic that the coming "great tribulation" will be all out WWIII, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc. They use the scare tactic to make their congregations fear to go through the "great tribulation" because of their false preaching, and not properly covering Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse SIGNS about the END.

The coming "great tribulation" will be the MOST DANGEROUS PERIOD in this present earth's history. Not physically dangerous though, but SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS. It is going to be about FALSE WORSHIP TO THE WRONG CHRIST. God's Word reveals there will be a FAKE Christ with supernatural powers of miracles coming first to play God in Jerusalem. The purpose of that is to DECEIVE YOU INTO ACCEPTING HIM IN PLACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST Who comes later to destroy that false-Christ. Thus the battle during the "great tribulation" will be FOR YOUR SOUL, not your flesh.

Those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory are already snared by Satan, for they believe they will be raptured out before that "great tribulation". And that means they WILL NOT RECOGNIZE that false-Christ who comes first as being the DANGER that the trib is all about! They will think that false-Christ is... our Lord Jesus, but it won't be. And Lord Jesus specifically warned His servants about the coming of that false-Christ, per Matthew 24:23-26, which is in the SINGULAR TENSE about the coming false-Messiah.

Remember Lord Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but to fear Him (The Father) Who can destroy both our body and soul in hell (i.e., geena put for the future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20). That reveals how much MORE IMPORTANT OUR SOUL IS, than is our flesh. That is how this coming "great tribulation" is going to be the most dangerous time on earth that has never been before, nor will ever be again.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Because Matthew 10 is of a time in the disciple's days, and the same kind of warning exists in Christ's Olivet discourse about the end, per Matthew 13, that suggests what? It suggests this delivering up of Christ's servants speaking by The Holy Spirit began after Pentecost, and has continued, and will especially be a highlight event during the coming "great tribulation". Peter quoted the end of Joel 2 about this on Pentecost day, showing a time just before the "day of the Lord", which is the day Jesus returns.

I can see how what happened to Israel in Jesus' generation may be a preview of what was to happen in future generations in other nations. But I don't believe the "great tribulation" or "great distress" in the Olivet Discourse referred specifically to the endtimes, as in the reign of Antichrist.

One might say that the "last days" or the "endtimes" actually began with Jesus' 1st Coming and death on the cross. That is when Israel fell and begin their final wait for restoration, "never to be oppressed again." Or, we might use the language of the "endtimes" or the "last days" to refer to our time, when Antichrist is soon to rise and Christ is soon to appear in his 2nd Advent.

In that case, the "great tribulation" is merely a continuation of what Jesus said would happen to the Jewish People, namely that they would fall to the Romans, lose their Temple, and remain incomplete as a People of God until Christ's 2nd Coming. The "great tribulation" therefore refers to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD with the accompanying loss of homeland and status with God by the Jewish People until the time of their restoration.

It is very popular to refer to the "Great Tribulation" as the Reign of Antichrist, because that is the final period of Jewish oppression before they are politically saved as a nation and restored as a People of God. But I find absolutely no reason to see this use of "Great Tribulation" in the Bible.

I therefore see the Olivet Discourse as Jesus describing his own particular generation, when this period of Jewish desolation would begin, leading to the greatest punishment the Jews have ever experienced in history, lasting an entire age. This is not popularly accepted, but is quite true as I see it.

Not about 70 A.D. That generation has been long... gone.

Yes, that generation has long been gone--the one that fell in 70 AD. But that is merely when the great punishment of the Jewish People began, because Jesus said their punishment would continue throughout the age until he returns.

Jesus pointed to the generation that will SEE "all these things", meaning the SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return that He was giving there in His Olivet discourse. Those SIGNS He gave go way past 70 A.D. So what you have succumbed to is just another doctrine of men.

Yes, some signs continue well past the 1st generation of Jewish punishment. But Jesus was speaking primarily of the destruction of Jerusalem and the razing of the Temple, which is what prompted the whole discussion on the Mount of Olives.

All of the signs Jesus mentioned as leading up to those things would be seen by his disciples and by his generation. The Roman armies would appear, the environment would see God's displeasure, and wickedness would abound, including the persecution of Jesus' disciples.

This would herald the beginning of an age-long punishment for the Jewish People, called the "great tribulation." It would be the worst punishment the Jewish People had ever experienced.

Jesus called the time of kingdom against kingdom, war, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, as the "beginning of sorrows", a time immediately PRIOR to the "great tribulation". In Matthew 24:6 Jesus showed that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, the END IS NOT YET, meaning the "great tribulation" is not yet.

The early warning signs, leading to 70 AD, were indeed the "beginning of sorrows" for the Jewish People. They were an indication they were about to be horribly punished in the Jewish Diaspora. Warning signs are preliminary to the main event.

That means when all wars have stopped, that's when to watch out, because will signal the time of "great tribulation", which is to be a time of WORLD PEACE, though a fake peace.

The world has never been fully at "peace." Many have proclaimed that they could secure world peace, but until the Kingdom of Christ comes, peace will be fleeting.

It is the Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers who especially use the scare tactic that the coming "great tribulation" will be all out WWIII, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc. They use the scare tactic to make their congregations fear to go through the "great tribulation" because of their false preaching, and not properly covering Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse SIGNS about the END.

I don't know why Pretribbers should be frightened of signs like earthquakes, etc.? They happen all the time. But when they increase in intensity they may be indication that God is warning of imminent judgment to a particular nation, as it was for Israel in the 1st century.

It is the same with Christian persecution, which happened to Jewish believers in the 1st century. Such persecution for Christians has happened throughout history, though it increases in intensity at times, when a nation is soon to be punished by God.

I think a lot of exaggeration has gone on about the Reign of Antichrist that unfortunately is being transferred onto Christians as if God is threatening them with punishment? It is actually those who follow Antichrist who are threatened with both punishment in this world and punishment in the world to come.

The coming "great tribulation" will be the MOST DANGEROUS PERIOD in this present earth's history. Not physically dangerous though, but SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS. It is going to be about FALSE WORSHIP TO THE WRONG CHRIST. God's Word reveals there will be a FAKE Christ with supernatural powers of miracles coming first to play God in Jerusalem. The purpose of that is to DECEIVE YOU INTO ACCEPTING HIM IN PLACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST Who comes later to destroy that false-Christ. Thus the battle during the "great tribulation" will be FOR YOUR SOUL, not your flesh.

There have been false Christs all through history--men and women who have proclaimed themselves as the answer for nations and for world peace. They may be false religions or false prophets within the Church who believe they are bringing God's Kingdom of peace prematurely. But as Paul taught, the Kingdom will not come until the antichrists are finally dealt with at Christ's Return (see 2 Thes 2).

Those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory are already snared by Satan, for they believe they will be raptured out before that "great tribulation". And that means they WILL NOT RECOGNIZE that false-Christ who comes first as being the DANGER that the trib is all about! They will think that false-Christ is... our Lord Jesus, but it won't be. And Lord Jesus specifically warned His servants about the coming of that false-Christ, per Matthew 24:23-26, which is in the SINGULAR TENSE about the coming false-Messiah.

True Christians normally recognize false Christs when they appear in the guise of false religions or leaders who oppose the Gospel. But when they come in the guise of Christianity itself the deception becomes more problematic.

It is our job to expose them as a false cure for this world. Our hope today is centered on spiritual salvation, as you suggest, with the world's problem with wars coming with the 2nd Advent of Christ. There may be some measures that can be taken in this life to promote peace and serenity, but we should know they are not long-lasting.

Remember Lord Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but to fear Him (The Father) Who can destroy both our body and soul in hell (i.e., geena put for the future "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20). That reveals how much MORE IMPORTANT OUR SOUL IS, than is our flesh. That is how this coming "great tribulation" is going to be the most dangerous time on earth that has never been before, nor will ever be again.

The "great tribulation" I view as I showed above. But yes, our spiritual salvation is the main thing. Thanks.

 

[ewq1938]

Mt 10:1-16 starts out with Jesus sending the disciples out two by two on a mission in their time. He tells them to heal the sick, raise the dead ect..
However, there is a strange transition to what looks like the end times in vs 17-33. What is your view on this?

I view it as types and shadows so applying in a sense in the lives of the disciples but also prophecy of the trib that other disciples would experience.

 

[Brakelite]

We are all disciples of Christ. While there was instruction there for the immediate future and mission of those bearing His words, Christ cars for all, and patua for all, who through their word and testimony believe. That includes today and tomorrow.

 

[Davy]

I can see how what happened to Israel in Jesus' generation may be a preview of what was to happen in future generations in other nations. But I don't believe the "great tribulation" or "great distress" in the Olivet Discourse referred specifically to the endtimes, as in the reign of Antichrist.

Then you have disregarded the following...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJV

One might say that the "last days" or the "endtimes" actually began with Jesus' 1st Coming and death on the cross. That is when Israel fell and begin their final wait for restoration, "never to be oppressed again." Or, we might use the language of the "endtimes" or the "last days" to refer to our time, when Antichrist is soon to rise and Christ is soon to appear in his 2nd Advent.

One can on and on and on about terms like "last days", endtimes, etc., and it is meaningless without understanding Bible Scripture which 'specifically' points to it. The timelines written of in God's Word are not that difficult if... one reads the simplicity of Bible Scripture without adding men's doctrines into it.

The SIGNS Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6. Now are you going to try and tell me those SIGNS all happened in the days of Jesus' 1st coming?!@$%?

No way I would trust you with interpretation of the proper timelines written in God's Word.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then you have disregarded the following...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJV

No, I most certainly have *not* disregarded Rev 1.20 and Rev 11.3-4! Determining that the "Great Tribulation" refers to the Jewish Diaspora throughout history, and not a proper noun applying to the final 3.5 years of this age is precisely what we read in Luke 21...

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Are you disregarding that? This is the definition Jesus himself gave to the "Great Tribulation." I am just believing in Jesus' definition, as opposed to the definition modern prophecy teachers wish to give it.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to use that term in reference to the Reign of Antichrist. We may use terms based on the context we wish to give it. But when it comes to how Jesus used the term I must defer to him.

One can on and on and on about terms like "last days", endtimes, etc., and it is meaningless without understanding Bible Scripture which 'specifically' points to it. The timelines written of in God's Word are not that difficult if... one reads the simplicity of Bible Scripture without adding men's doctrines into it.

I don't know why you bring "men's doctrines" into this conversation? It is perfectly relevant to discuss how the Bible uses the term "last days," or its equivalent "last hour." Discussing that does not require "men's doctrinres," but rather analysis of the context in which the passages use that term. 1 John 8.20, for example, is a good place to look at that.

The SIGNS Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6. Now are you going to try and tell me those SIGNS all happened in the days of Jesus' 1st coming?!@$%?

The context for the Olivet Discourse is different than the context for the book of Revelation and the 7 seals. Yes, the same signs can be given in different contexts. One set of signs were explicitly noted to be precursors to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In the book of Revelation they are precursors to the coming of the Kingdom of God. And they are taking place throughout the NT age, as I see it. Conflating both of these passages can cause problems.

No way I would trust you with interpretation of the proper timelines written in God's Word.

Why do you make this personal? We are equipped to share God's word. This does not mean we are always correct in our interpretations, and I've never asked you to accept things based on my own authority alone.