What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?
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Pagan, pagan...
Perhaps sometimes they got it right?
Do Christians believe there is life after physical death? (I hope so)
That's why it is called the afterlife.
[
"Afterlife" for BILLIONS of humans:
Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Don't be surprised if God has a VERY special place in Hell for those who convince people that there is no eternal Hell!
Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Don't be surprised if God has a VERY special place in Hell for those who convince people that there is no eternal Hell!
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)
Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate: no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
--- COMPARE ---
Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
[
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)
Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate: no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
--- COMPARE ---
Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
[
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
James tells us that “faith without works is dead”. What works did he mean? What are Christian works anyway?
They died spiritually that day.....being evicted from their paradise home and from God’s spiritual family on earth, now alienated from him. Having chosen to obey one who was not God, they severed their relationship with their Creator, and were given over to the ruler they chose. (Luke 4:5-6)
As “a thousand years is like one day” to God (2 Pet 3:8)....they also died physically within his counting of a “day”.
Yes, his own people, by their conduct, offended him on a regular basis. False worship of any description is offensive to him.
Read about the golden calf incident and how God responded to that.....the Israelites decided to hold “a festival to Jehovah” but they used a golden calf to represent him...a god worshipped in Egypt. What was God’s response? Death to the offenders!
Moses was so angry that he threw down the stone tablets upon which God had inscribed the Ten Commandments. (Ex 32:1-10)
Judges 2:11-12...ESV.
“And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals. And they abandoned the Lord, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt. They went after other gods, from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed down to them. And they provoked the Lord to anger.”
Can we “provoke” God by our behavior.....? I would say so...how do you define offence?
An attack on Catholicism? Are they the only ones who practise infant baptism?
Infant baptism is like an insurance policy that keeps a baby from going to hell. There is certainly more to baptism than a sprinkling of water....and more to salvation than any empty performance.
It’s not just “works”....or the performance of rituals or repetitive prayers.....it is following through on all the commands laid down in the teachings of Jesus Christ....discussed in my other post. (#31)
Well yeah, Jesus said to pull them out of the Fire! That's Biblical love! Unlike Satan's messengers, filled with HATE, who tell us there is no eternal Hell fire! They even lead friends and family to Hell!
Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Our Bibles preserve a bunch of the early Canaanites beliefs, that Israel took/inherited from them. It seems that the Canaanites were originally among the faithful, before later converting themselves primarily to the worship of the Baals.
There certainly is for some, but Annihilation proposes that it may not be for everyone.
Ain't no "Annihilation" in the Bible. BILLIONS in Hell will wish they were annihilated.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Can you tell me what they got right?
Those who subscribe to Christendom’s teachings on “life after death” are in the company of all those who practice false worship. This is a teaching found in all false religions...but not found at all in Jewish Scripture.
Who called it that? Where did the concept come from? What “afterlife” did the Jews expect?
When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, where did his sister say she expected to see him again?
John 11:17-25....
“When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazʹa·rus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethʹa·ny was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life”.
What was “the resurrection on the last day” ? Remember that these people were Jewish, because Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish Scripture. Lazarus hadn’t gone anywhere but was still in his tomb....there was no belief in an immortal soul. Resurrection was a restoration of human life, as all Jews believed.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Why were the Canaanites displaced? The Canaanites were, in a sense, squatters in a land that did not belong to them. How so? Some 400 years earlier, God had promised his faithful servant Abraham that his descendants would possess the land of Canaan. (Gen 15:18)
What kind of people were the Canaanites?
God warned his people.....“They should not dwell in your land, that they may not cause you to sin against me. In case you should serve their gods, it would become a snare to you.” (Ex 23:33)
Moses later told Israel: “It is for the wickedness of these nations that Jehovah your God is driving them away.” (Deut 9:5; 18:9-12).....so just how wicked were those nations?
The Canaanites worshipped, by gross immoral practices as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, gave them as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.
So the eviction was very necessary......God kept his promise to Abraham when he led the nation of Israel, (descended from Abraham) to occupy the region....a place they called “the Promised Land”.
Some might protest that the Canaanites already lived there and therefore had a right to the land. But surely, as the Sovereign of the universe, God has the ultimate right to determine who will live where. (Acts 17:26; 1 Cor 10:26)
And it is to be noted that when Israel fell to the kind of false worship practiced by the nations...he punished them....so Israel never had excuses to adopt pagan worship.
We have to remember that all who lived after the flood were descendants of Noah’s three sons...Shem, Ham and Japheth. Following an incident with Noah, Ham’s son, Canaan received a curse from his grandfather for conduct that is not detailed, but serious enough for him to pronounce a curse on his descendants, who became those immoral Canaanites.
In obedience to God’s instructions, Joshua and his people crossed the Jordan River to take possession of the land inhabited by the descendants of the cursed Canaan. After the Israelites had defeated the cities of Jericho and Ai, Canaanites from the city of Gibeon came out to sue for peace. “We are your servants. And now conclude a covenant with us,” they said to Joshua. (Josh 9:11) That was the fulfillment of Noah’s words that Canaan’s offspring would become servants of Shem and Japheth’s descendants.
Rahab also merited God’s favour when she hid the Israelite spies, and earned his protection for her whole family when Jericho was defeated.
We have to know what the Bible’s definition of an “afterlife” is because it is vastly different from what is taught in Christendom.
Several scriptures seem to support soul sleep and other scriptures seem to support immortality. I am going to attempt to list the scriptures that support both different beliefs, and see what we can find out? And does everyone get life?
Some scriptures that seem to support soul sleep:
Starting with Genesis does the Bible explain immortality or soul sleep?
1. "you shall surely die" -Genesis 2:17
2. "dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Genesis 2:7
3. "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Ge. 3:19
4. "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]" - Ecc. 3:19, 20
5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. -Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," -Ecc. 9:5
7. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19
8 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death.... -Hosea 13:14 NKJV
9. John 5:28-29, John 11:24-25, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21, 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Rev. 20:12-13
10. No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NASB -John 3:13
11. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand. Berean Standard Bible -Acts 2:34
12. ...The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible
13. ...And I will raise them up at the last day. -John 6:44
14. And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days. Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Bible
15. And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and [ *the life breath/spirit KJB ] returns to God who gave it. -Ecc. 12:7 New American Bible
[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]
[ *New American Bible - the life breath/spirit - King James Bible ]
Some scriptures that seem to support immortality:
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV
2. 2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. New King James Version
3. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
4. Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” NIV
5. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
6. John 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT
7. 1 Corinthians 15:12 "Resurrection"
8. Matthew 25:46 "Eternal life"
9. John 3:16 life "Eternal life"
10. Psalm 23:6 "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
11. John 5:24 "Eternal life"
* Scriptures say few find life Matt. 7:14, Believers get everlasting life John 3:16, Some do not get life John 3:36, Some does not have life 1st John 5:12
Note: Why would the Bible record scriptures that disagree? With a closer look I found some scriptures could be be taken two different ways, for example:
I have noticed that Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken in two different ways:
- one way it sounds like your spirit goes back to God, which seems to support immortality.
- another way it sounds like your life breath/spirit returns to the God who gave it. which seems to support soul sleep.
- one way: And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -Luke 23:43 NKJV
- another way: Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43
www.textkit.com
- another way to look at these three scripture: John 11:25 & 26 and Luke 20:38 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT, Maybe they will never die because they will always be in God's memory, and God will resurrect them on judgment day, so in this sense they will be awakened to a new life, so they never really die. And now all the scriptures agree and make sense collectively?
What do you think, do these scriptures make sense to you?
Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?
"you shall surely die" "For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other" "he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish" "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," "let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy"
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death." "And I will raise them up at the last day" "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days
Some scriptures that seem to support soul sleep:
Starting with Genesis does the Bible explain immortality or soul sleep?
1. "you shall surely die" -Genesis 2:17
2. "dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Genesis 2:7
3. "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Ge. 3:19
4. "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]" - Ecc. 3:19, 20
5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. -Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," -Ecc. 9:5
7. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19
8 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death.... -Hosea 13:14 NKJV
9. John 5:28-29, John 11:24-25, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21, 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Rev. 20:12-13
10. No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NASB -John 3:13
11. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand. Berean Standard Bible -Acts 2:34
12. ...The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible
13. ...And I will raise them up at the last day. -John 6:44
14. And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days. Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Bible
15. And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and [ *the life breath/spirit KJB ] returns to God who gave it. -Ecc. 12:7 New American Bible
[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]
[ *New American Bible - the life breath/spirit - King James Bible ]
Some scriptures that seem to support immortality:
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV
2. 2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. New King James Version
3. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
4. Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” NIV
5. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
6. John 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT
7. 1 Corinthians 15:12 "Resurrection"
8. Matthew 25:46 "Eternal life"
9. John 3:16 life "Eternal life"
10. Psalm 23:6 "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
11. John 5:24 "Eternal life"
* Scriptures say few find life Matt. 7:14, Believers get everlasting life John 3:16, Some do not get life John 3:36, Some does not have life 1st John 5:12
Note: Why would the Bible record scriptures that disagree? With a closer look I found some scriptures could be be taken two different ways, for example:
I have noticed that Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken in two different ways:
- one way it sounds like your spirit goes back to God, which seems to support immortality.
- another way it sounds like your life breath/spirit returns to the God who gave it. which seems to support soul sleep.
- one way: And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -Luke 23:43 NKJV
- another way: Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43
Comma placement
In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...
www.textkit.com
- another way to look at these three scripture: John 11:25 & 26 and Luke 20:38 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT, Maybe they will never die because they will always be in God's memory, and God will resurrect them on judgment day, so in this sense they will be awakened to a new life, so they never really die. And now all the scriptures agree and make sense collectively?
What do you think, do these scriptures make sense to you?
Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?
"you shall surely die" "For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other" "he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish" "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," "let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy"
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death." "And I will raise them up at the last day" "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, very important to identify which one is supported in the Bible, and why it has to fit in with the overall narrative of the Scriptures given to us to “set things straight”. (2 Tim 3:16-17)
Why do we die? Were we ever meant to? Does death feel natural, or do we fight to live?
If our loved ones go to a better place, why do we grieve?
And why is death said to be the “last enemy” to be defeated?
All relevant questions....
What should we make of this?
Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush,
even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham,
and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
John 11:25-27 NIV
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
[
Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush,
even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham,
and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
John 11:25-27 NIV
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
[
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The wickedness of the Canaanites in Moses' day is a given. It doesn't change the fact that the early Israelites took a bunch of beliefs from them, or that the Bible contains several sections of Canaanite writings.
What's the point you're driving at? They also defeated two Amorite tribes and the Midianites BEFORE crossing Jordan. The Israelites function under Moses and Joshua seems to be punitive, especially to wipe out the last-living giants.
Nearly as I can tell, the Bible teaches a special resurrection for martyrs, and a general resurrection for everyone. After the general resurrection is The Judgment, and those found lacking seem to be incinerated.
Here, though, we seem to be speaking more about the time after death and before the general resurrection, which is murky territory.
The "dead" were standing before God. They were not alive? lol
JW doctrine almost never holds up.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
'Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible. BILLIONS of humans in THE FIRE will wish they didn't exist! And everyone who convinces people that there is no EVERLASTING FIRE will have blood on their hands on Judgment Day! Sounds just like JW's, doesn't it.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You've clearly never thought about what a loving God means, Jack....and it appears just as clear that you are not interested in knowing!
You mean Jesus of the Bible who said the Genesis Flood was clearly literal?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jehovah is “not a God of the dead”, because he purposes to bring them all back from the grave (John 5:28-29).....remember that there is no immortal soul taught in Jewish Scripture....as far as God is concerned, he hasn’t forgotten a single soul whose life was taken by Adam’s awful inheritance.....and God looks forward to awakening them all from the sleep of death, to resume their lives here on earth as he first purposed. They are not dead from his perspective...just sleeping. (As Jesus said of Lazarus. John 11:11-14)
All in “Sheol/hades” will live again....only those consigned to “Gehenna” will forfeit their lives permanently because of failing to know the true God because they have not bothered to check whether the god they serve is the one Jesus taught about. Only God knows who they are....and who they will prove to be in the future judgment.
Remember, no one went to heaven before Jesus opened the way. (John 3:13) He is called “the firstborn from the dead”, (Col 1:15-16) not because he was the first human resurrected, (he himself had resurrected the dead)......but because he was the first human to be resurrected to spirit life in heaven...others would follow in due course. He went to “prepare a place” for them.
So all the faithful ones of old, will be brought back to life on earth.....as they anticipated.
This is what Jews believed, so trying to insert something that they did not believe into the scriptures, requires some pretty heavy duty tap dancing to make it all fit.
Not a fan of the NIV because of its poor translation.
This was in response to Martha who was grieving the loss of her only brother....John 11: 21-26...
“Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” (NASB)
Taken in context, according to Jewish belief as these friends of Jesus were Jewish, what did Martha say was her expectation of her brother coming back to life? Did Jesus drag him back from a better place? Or was there a future time when Martha knew she would see him again?
It’s so easy to take a passage out of context and make it say what you want it too.....this is why we have to be Bible students and know what was said...to whom it was said....and in what context it was stated.
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