What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

[quietthinker]

Agree.
But shouldn't we define immortal (in this case) as without beginning or end?

My claim is that a living soul is created at conception (not birth) and lives forever after that.
There seems to be divine immortality and human immortality.

Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

[

The promise of what we (God's people)shall become is yet to become empirical reality. The present is subject to mortality (not immortality)
Eternal life (immortality) in a changed body becomes the reality of God's people when Jesus returns ...as per your quote in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[MatthewG]

What is st.stevens answer? Did he ever reveal what he believes?

 

[Behold]

Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The context of your verse is the next one, vs 8..... where God says He'll Judge them, for one reason.

"They rejected the Truth"..

Now, this means that the reason that those who persist in doing good, vs 7.. will not be eternally judged after they die, is because they have not "Rejected the Truth."

So, who is The Truth who can be REJECTED?

John 14:6.......>Jesus said......."I am THE Truth".

So, if you reject Him, you reject the Truth, and you are judged as a Christ rejector, after you die, and you go to Hell. (vs 8).
Those in vs 7 that you posted, didnt reject Christ, they didn't reject the Truth... so, they have been given Eternal life before they died, as that is Salvation... Its the "Gift of eternal Life".

 

[St. SteVen]

The promise of what we (God's people)shall become is yet to become empirical reality.

Agree.

The present is subject to mortality (not immortality)
Eternal life (immortality) in a changed body becomes the reality of God's people when Jesus returns ...as per your quote in 1 Corinthians 15.

Consider this.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

[

 

[Behold]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

[

Did you notice your verse says......... "will not be Judged"? If they have "Eternal life"?

This Judgment is : John 3:36.

And the "having eternal life" has to happen before you die, and that is because to receive it, you have to BELIEVE when you can't SEE Jesus.., as that is FAITH....
And after you die, you will SEE Jesus, and that means there is no FAITH involved in Eternity, so there is no Salvation available after you die, as you have to give God your Faith, in what you can't See........and that only happens on Earth.

 

[Bladerunner]

@St. SteVen, @Aunty Jane

A BIBLICAL VIEW OF THE STATE OF THE DEAD (CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY)

This understanding, often termed conditional immortality or "soul sleep," posits that humans lack an inherently immortal soul that consciously survives bodily death. Instead, death is an unconscious state, likened to sleep, persisting until the resurrection.

HUMAN NATURE AT CREATION

Genesis 2:7 states, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nephesh chayyah)."
Man didn't receive a pre-existing immortal soul. The combination of the "dust" (physical body) and the "breath of life" (God's life principle) resulted in a "living soul" or "living being"—the whole person. The Hebrew term nephesh (soul) is used broadly, often referring to the person, life, or self, and does not inherently imply immortality.

Immortality was contingent upon obedience and access to the Tree of Life (Genesis 2:9). After sin, humanity was barred from it "lest he...take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22). This implies they did not possess inherent immortality. Scripture states that God "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). Humans receive immortality as a gift from God through Christ (Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).

THE NATURE OF DEATH

Death involves the cessation of life and consciousness.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 is a key text: "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing... Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun... For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave (Sheol) where you are going." This indicates a complete lack of consciousness.
Psalm 146:4 adds, "His breath (spirit, ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." The "spirit" (ruach) is understood as the "breath of life" from God, the vital spark, not a conscious entity. Upon death, this returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), while the body returns to dust (Genesis 3:19).
Other texts like Psalm 6:5, Psalm 115:17, Isaiah 38:18-19, and Job 14:10-12, 21 confirm this state of silence, inactivity, and unawareness in death.

The Bible frequently describes death as "sleep." This metaphor implies unconsciousness and a future awakening (resurrection).
Jesus said of Lazarus, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps...Lazarus is dead" (John 11:11-14).
Paul refers to deceased believers as "those who sleep in Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), who will be awakened at Christ's return. Daniel 12:2, Acts 7:60 (Stephen "fell asleep"), and Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians 15 also use this "sleep" metaphor.

THE RESURRECTION – THE HOPE OF BELIEVERS

If the soul is already consciously in heaven or hell, the strong biblical emphasis on a future bodily resurrection (1 Corinthians 15) becomes theologically problematic or less significant.
Paul argues in 1 Corinthians 15:16-18, "For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen... Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." His argument hinges on the idea that without resurrection, the dead in Christ have simply ceased to exist or remain unredeemed.
Job's hope was in a future, bodily encounter: "in my flesh I shall see God" (Job 19:25-27).

The timing of reward and punishment is tied to the resurrection.
John 5:28-29 points to a future "hour...in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
Revelation 20:4-6 describes the "first resurrection" of the righteous at Christ's second coming. The "rest of the dead" (the wicked) do not live again until after a symbolic thousand years.
Reward is given at the Second Coming (Matthew 16:27; 2 Timothy 4:8).

ADDRESSING COMMONLY MISUNDERSTOOD PASSAGES

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31):
This is widely understood as a parable, not a literal depiction of the afterlife. Jesus uses elements of existing Jewish folklore (e.g., "Abraham's bosom") to teach moral lessons about wealth, compassion, the irrevocability of choices, and the authority of Scripture. If taken literally, it would contradict clearer scriptural teachings on the unconsciousness of the dead. Parables often contain non-literal elements to convey spiritual truth (e.g., talking trees in Judges 9:8-15).

The Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43):
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
The original Greek manuscripts had no punctuation. The placement of the comma is interpretive. The statement can be understood as: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." This emphasizes the certainty of the promise made on that day, not its immediate fulfillment on that day. Jesus Himself did not go to Paradise that day; He rested in the tomb (Matthew 12:40) and told Mary Magdalene on Sunday morning, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). "Paradise" here is understood as the Paradise restored, which believers enter after the resurrection.

"Absent from the body... present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8):
Paul expresses a desire: "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." The context (2 Corinthians 5:1-10) is Paul's longing for his resurrected, glorified body, contrasting the earthly "tent" with the "building from God...eternal in the heavens." The transition from being "absent from the body" to being "present with the Lord" occurs at the resurrection. For the dead, the next conscious moment after death is the resurrection; there is no consciousness of the intervening time.

Souls Under the Altar (Revelation 6:9-11):
"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain..."
The book of Revelation is highly symbolic. Blood, representing life, was poured at the base of the altar of sacrifice (Leviticus 4:7). This imagery personifies the martyrs' sacrifice crying out for justice, similar to how Abel's blood cried out from the ground (Genesis 4:10). It's symbolic language, not a literal description of disembodied souls.

Saul and the "Witch" of Endor (1 Samuel 28):
This account describes Saul consulting a medium who seemingly conjures up Samuel. This is interpreted by many as a demonic deception, not the actual spirit of Samuel. God had refused to answer Saul (1 Samuel 28:6), and necromancy is strictly forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). The apparition gave a message consistent with what Samuel had already told Saul, which a deceiving spirit could mimic. The text states "Saul perceived that it was Samuel," indicating his subjective perception.

THEOLOGICAL IMPLICATIONS

This view upholds God's justice and character. Eternal conscious torment for sins committed in a finite lifetime is seen by many as incompatible with God's love and justice. This view posits that the wicked are ultimately annihilated (the "second death," Revelation 20:14-15; Malachi 4:1, 3), ceasing to exist.
It guards against spiritualism. If the dead are unconscious ("know nothing"), then supposed communication with departed spirits must be deceptive, often attributed to demonic impersonations.
It elevates the Second Coming and Resurrection. These become the climactic events when believers receive their reward and immortality.
It provides comfort. The bereaved can find comfort knowing their loved ones are at peace, unconscious, not suffering or observing earthly events, awaiting the joyous reunion at the resurrection.
It is consistent with God's original plan, where immortality is a gift, not an inherent human attribute, received through Christ.

THE FINAL STATE

The Righteous: After the resurrection at Christ's Second Coming, they will live eternally with God in a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21-22).
The Wicked: After the resurrection following the millennium (Revelation 20:5, 11-15), they face final judgment and experience the "second death," which is complete annihilation (Malachi 4:1; Revelation 20:9, 14-15).

HISTORICAL CONSIDERATIONS

The doctrine of the inherent immortality of the soul is seen by many scholars as an intrusion of Greek philosophy (particularly Platonism) into early Christian thought, rather than a concept derived purely from Hebrew scriptures. "Soul sleep" or conditionalism was a notable minority view throughout church history, experiencing a resurgence during and after the Reformation.

CONCLUSION

The conditional immortality understanding of the state of the dead is rooted in a holistic interpretation of Scripture. It emphasizes the created nature of humanity, the meaning of death as an unconscious sleep, and the centrality of the resurrection as the believer's hope. This view is considered internally consistent with the broader biblical narrative and upholds the justice and love of God, maintaining that eternal life is His gift through Jesus Christ, fully realized at the resurrection.

{ Aunty Jane said:
Can you show me where it say that in the Bible….? }

Paul tells us n numerous places..."We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 CO 5:8.....

 

[quietthinker]

Consider this.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Yes, by faith, not by empirical experience.
God sees ALL as having passed from death to life IN Jesus. This is good news, yet this is not the case in empirical experience.
What we will experience at Jesus return is yet to be realised for those who trust God to fulfil his promises in us...when death (mortality) is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54
Faith and experience stand in tension to each other. To confuse the two is to create confusion in our vision.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Consider this.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Yes, by faith, not by empirical experience.
God sees ALL as having passed from death to life IN Jesus. This is good news, yet this is not the case in empirical experience.
What we will experience at Jesus return is yet to be realised for those who trust God to fulfil his promises in us...when death (mortality) is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54
Faith and experience stand in tension to each other. To confuse the two is to create confusion in our vision.

I would say that the change (crossed over from death to life) is positional, not just a matter of faith. (hope)

Ephesians 2:6 NIV
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

[

 

[quietthinker]

St. SteVen said:

Consider this.

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I would say that the change (crossed over from death to life) is positional, not just a matter of faith. (hope)

Ephesians 2:6 NIV
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

[

It is positional, this is true yet it is not empirical.
For who then will it be empirical....and when? I understand the scripture to say it will be empirical for those who trust God's declaration of the positional.....and when will this happen? ....at the last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[Gottservant]

My understanding is, [once dead] the Holy Spirit reminds you of who you were created to be, Jesus reminds you of the choice you had and for what, and God calls you a Heavenly creature, that you were not, but that you could become.

Once you realise that life was set in stone from the beginning, dealing with it ending, gets so much easier and lighter!

Ask yourself "Do I even really know, what I am unhappy about, when I sin and forget who I was [to God]?"

 

[Aunty Jane]

Can I start here with these....?

The human soul or spirit is that part of a man or woman that is not physical. The soul is central to the personhood of a human being. It is the “true self”—who a person really is. The soul is the center of life, feeling, thought, and action in a human being.

The underlined words at the beginning there are a complete departure from what the Bible as a whole, teaches about life and death. I believe I have already gone into quite a bit of detail about the difference between the “soul” and the “spirit”, but you have apparently chosen to ignore that difference, preferring instead to keep believing that we don’t really die. I can only assume that you have personal reasons to keep on believing what the Bible does not say....? There is not a single mention of an “immortal soul” in the whole Bible.

What is God’s definition is of “death”? What did he tell Adam would happen to him after death? A “return to the dust from which he was created”.....Adam ceased to exist....so did his wife. Neither had an excuse to break the only negative command there was. They went back to where they came from....where were any of us before our parents conceived us? We simply didn’t exist...and that is what happens at death. We cease to exist until it’s time for the resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

For stealing what belonged to God....an offence punishable by death, the first humans knew the penalty before they took a bite.

Without a doubt the human soul is immortal.

Not a single Scripture says so, because the Bible writers knew the difference between “soul” and “spirit”....a very important difference that Christendom’s members choose not to acknowledge.

That is, the soul is not subject to death.

Ezekiel 18:4...
“Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.” (NASB)

The rendering of “soul” in that verse is “nep̄eš” in Greek, which Strongs gives the definition as....

“soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual”

It’s not some shadowy, invisible conscious spirit that lives inside a shell....like a hermit crab.

Being “mortal”, souls can die as Ezekiel says above....this happens when they stop breathing. Animals and humans die the same death. (Eccl 3:19-20) Sin is the cause of death in man, but not in animals who were designed with a cycle of life....we were not created to die as we were made in God’s image....and offered everlasting life in the beginning.....on one condition...that we obey God’s commands.
Death only came through disobedience.

Once created, the soul never ceases to exist but is everlasting. The soul is spiritual and thus has the quality of immortality. In contrast, the body is physical; the earthly body we now possess is subject to death.

There is no Scripture that backs up that statement. There are no immortal souls in the Bible. Humans cannot be immortal, if they were, then the TKGE could not have meant death....and yet death is all that was stated...no heaven of hell or any other place for dead souls to go.

The immortality of the soul is clearly seen in many places in Scripture. For example, in Psalm 23:6 David says, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”

David as a Jew, believed in the resurrection, and so he believed in an earthly resurrection back to live in mortal flesh, but without sin........access to the trees of life mentioned in Revelation will mean everlasting life on earth for all who are resurrected, and can prove themselves worthy of being granted everlasting life after one final test.

A resurrection to life in heaven was only revealed to Jesus’ disciples after his resurrection.....the holy spirit would anoint them for this life, giving them the seal.....a token in advance of the promise of their life in heaven to come. These are chosen by God for that role. Not all Christians are chosen for heaven.

In Ecclesiastes 12:7 the Preacher mentions two things that happen at death: “The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

Yes, the “spirit” not the “soul”....the spirit is “the breath of life” that originally made Adam a “soul”. A soul is a breather.....so what is restored by God is the breath that animates a recreated body.....do you believe that God lacks the power to recreate you?

In 2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul says that to be “absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (NKJV).

This is Paul speaking....one who was converted after Pentecost with full knowledge of what his anointing meant, which is why he could say what he did there. He knew that all who are of the “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) would have to give up their fleshly existence and take on a new body in order to reside in heaven....flesh and blood cannot go there. They have to be “born again” in a spirit body.

All these passages indicate that the soul is immortal.

None of them do when we study the whole Bible instead of just reading it and allowing a corrupted church system to dictate its contents and our beliefs. The truth is more powerful than any church.

 

[Jack]

1 Peter 3:9 NIV
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult.
On the contrary, repay evil with blessing,
because to this you were called
so that you may inherit a blessing.

I'm glad you said "I love the Bible". En

2 Peter 2:4-6
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[Jack]

1 John 3:15 NIV
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer,
and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Teaching stevie about God of the Bible. You're gonna LOVE this stevie:

Deuteronomy 28:20
20 "The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, very important to identify which one is supported in the Bible, and why it has to fit in with the overall narrative of the Scriptures given to us to “set things straight”. (2 Tim 3:16-17)

@walter showed biblical support for BOTH views.
Doesn't that mean that BOTH views "fit in with the overall narrative of the Scriptures given to us"?
Can the two views be harmonized?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

@walter showed biblical support for BOTH views.
Doesn't that mean that BOTH views "fit in with the overall narrative of the Scriptures given to us"?
Can the two views be harmonized?

It seems to me that the sleeping view is from a physical, earthly perspective;
and the immortal soul aspect is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

“soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual”

From the definition I focus on self, mind, emotion. (personal identity)
What differentiates one individual from another.
The part of ourselves that is left to judge when the physical body has expired.
The soul. The recognizable part of ourselves after physical death.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Several scriptures seem to support soul sleep and other scriptures seem to support immortality. I am going to attempt to list the scriptures that support both different beliefs, and see what we can find out?

Some scriptures that seem to support soul sleep:
Starting with Genesis does the Bible explain immortality or soul sleep?

Hi Walter,,,
Before starting to go through the below list,,,it's important to note that the OT was not a complete revelation.
For a complete, final, and ultimate revelation of God we have to listen to what Jesus taught.
For instance, even the Jews had an opposing opinion...
The Saducees did not even believe in an afterlife...
The Pharisees did.
Some verses sound like soul sleep
and others do not.
(as you've stated).

1. "you shall surely die" -Genesis 2:17

I don't believe this falls under either category.
Man was made to be immortal...but he sinned against God.
Now he faces both spiritual and physical death.
No mention of what happens after death.

2. "dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -Genesis 2:7

No mention of what happens after death.

3. "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” -Ge. 3:19

Sounds like a person just dies.

4. "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]" - Ecc. 3:19, 20

It states that no one knows for sure what happens to the human spirit...
so no mention of what happens after death....
Job does mention that man will be judged-but I don't believe this has any bearing on your list.

5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. -Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," -Ecc. 9:5

This sounds like soul sleep.
Or worse! It says that there's not a trace of them left.

7. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. -Isaiah 26:19
8 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death.... -Hosea 13:14 NKJV

But it doesn't say when...

9. John 5:28-29, John 11:24-25, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21, 1st Thessalonians 4:14, Rev. 20:12-13

This is speaking about the resurrection.
1 Thess 4:14 sounds like the dead sleep until the resurrection.

10. No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. NASB -John 3:13
11. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand. Berean Standard Bible -Acts 2:34

Not relevant.
Not about what happens after death.

12. ...The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible

Not about what happens after death.

13. ...And I will raise them up at the last day. -John 6:44

The resurrection - not what happens after death.

14. And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days. Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Bible
15. And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and [ *the life breath/spirit KJB ] returns to God who gave it. -Ecc. 12:7 New American Bible

[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]
[ *New American Bible - the life breath/spirit - King James Bible ]

Some scriptures that seem to support immortality:
1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV
2. 2nd Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. New King James Version
3. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” NIV
4. Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” NIV
5. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
6. John 11:26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT
7. 1 Corinthians 15:12 "Resurrection"
8. Matthew 25:46 "Eternal life"
9. John 3:16 life "Eternal life"
10. Psalm 23:6 "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"
11. John 5:24 "Eternal life"
* Is their a difference between immortality and everlasting life?

The above are about eternal life, everlasting life.
Eternal life, everlasting life means we will live forever.
Immortality means that a person never dies.
Humans are not immortal - we do die.

All of the above support life after death.

Note: Why would the Bible record scriptures that disagree? With a closer look I found some scriptures could be be taken two different ways, for example:
I have noticed that Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken in two different ways:
- one way it sounds like your spirit goes back to God, which seems to support immortality.
- another way it sounds like your life breath/spirit returns to the God who gave it. which seems to support soul sleep.

It's the same.
If the spirit goes back to God....it's still YOU...
If your life breath and spirit go back to God...it's still YOU...

- one way: And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” -Luke 23:43 NKJV
- another way: Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

Jesus said this very day you will be with me in Paradise.
Paradise is the same as Hades.
Look this up.
Hades is in Luke 16 (?) The Rich Man and Lazarus

- another way to look at these three scripture: John 11:25 & 26 and Luke 20:38 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?” NLT, Maybe they will never die because they will always be in God's memory, and God will resurrect them on judgment day, so in this sense they will be awakened to a new life, so they never really die. And now all the scriptures agree and make sense collectively?

No. The idea of living in God's memory is taught by no denomination that I know of.

What do you think, do these scriptures make sense to you?

Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?

The bible can be very confusing exactly because of its language.
What Christianity believes is that when we die we go to be immediately with Jesus (or wherever we're headed).

"you shall surely die" "For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” "For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other" "he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish" "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing," "let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy"
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death." "And I will raise them up at the last day" "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days.

We have to give some trust to theologians Walter...
to those that came before us.
If the soul and spirit are real...then they never die and they live forever.
You have many verses in your list that support this idea and which JESUS taught.

I'd stay with that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Some may say "the immortal soul is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective" So why does the Bible even include words that supports a different perspective?

The other view is from an earthly, physical perspective.
The book of Ecclesiastes is about everything that happens under the sun.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

@walter showed biblical support for BOTH views.
Doesn't that mean that BOTH views "fit in with the overall narrative of the Scriptures given to us"?
Can the two views be harmonized?

What Walter showed was the reason why we need to even have this conversation....

If the Jewish belief in the resurrection was what Jesus taught, then we need to understand what a resurrection is.....and to understand what death meant to a Jew.

A resurrection is a “rising up from death”. The Greek word “a·naʹsta·sis” literally means “raising up; standing up.” Nine resurrections are mentioned in the Bible, including the resurrection of Jesus by God. (Acts 2:22-24) All but Jesus resumed life in the flesh....Jesus’ resurrection was different as Paul calls him “the firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:15)....since he was not the first human to be resurrected, what did Paul mean?

He alluded to the fact that there are two different resurrections. One back to mortal human life on earth for the majority of mankind, and one for the “chosen ones”, (saints/elect).....both are a return to life but in different locations.

Jesus was the first human to be raised as a spirit, given a glorious spirit body in order to return to his Father in heaven. Those of his “saints” will experience the same resurrection as their Lord...and these will be resurrected “first”. (Rev 20:6).....”flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom”. (1 Cor 15:50)

If Lazarus’ sister Martha declared that her brother would “rise in the resurrection on the last day”, she obviously understood what that meant from the Jewish perspective. When was “the last day”?

Did those who witnessed Lazarus’ resurrection think that his soul had gone somewhere else and that Jesus had dragged him back to this life, only to die again from some other cause, later?

So how did that perspective get so messed up in Christendom? They adopted the pagan Greek idea of an immortal soul, which is completely missing from God’s word.

It seems to me that the sleeping view is from a physical, earthly perspective;
and the immortal soul aspect is from a spiritual, heavenly perspective.

The “sleeping” view is what all Jews held up until they too later adopted the notion of an immortal soul....

All the apostles held the “sleeping view” too until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit anointed the chosen ones for a different location.....the Kingdom of God that they originally thought was to be established on earth, was now revealed to be in heaven, where Jesus went to prepare a place for them.
This Kingdom would rule redeemed mankind on earth, reestablishing God’s first purpose for the human race...that never changed.

These “saints” were “chosen from among mankind” as “firstfruits”, (Rev 14:1-5) which to an agricultural people meant the first of the crop, which would be followed by a second harvest.
Unless we understand that there are two separate resurrections to two separate groups of God’s choosing, the dilemma will continue....but there is no dilemma at all from the Scriptural perspective...it is entirely man made.

There are not two separate and conscious parts to us that separate at death....we are one human being.....as God created us...we are “a soul” whilst we breathe.....and the soul is entirely mortal. It dies when breathing stops. There can be no separation of body and soul as they are one and the same thing.

The “spirit” in us is “the breath of life” that was given to Adam to make him “a living soul”. It is the animating force in all living souls on earth, including the animals. (Eccl 3:19-20)

 

[Aunty Jane]

{ Aunty Jane said:
Can you show me where it say that in the Bible….? }

Paul tells us n numerous places..."We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." 2 CO 5:8.....

Paul was an anointed Christian, with a “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1)...not all Christians have the “heavenly calling”. It is God who gives this expectation to those who wrote the Christian Scriptures....they were invited to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom....but a Kingdom is pointless if it only has rulers....they need subjects for whom to act as rulers, judges and priests. (Rev 20:6) God gave these ones an inordinate desire to go to heaven, to “be present with the Lord”.

These are to be “resurrected first”, (1 Thess 4:15-17) in order that, when Jesus comes to judge mankind, the kingdom will already be set up, prepared to take on the rulership that Jesus has been waiting to administer ....to restore all that was lost when the rebellion took place in Eden.

The words of the Lord’s Prayer demonstrate why the ‘coming’ of the Kingdom will mean that God’s will can finally be done “on earth as it is in heaven”. Jesus taught us to pray for the Kingdom to “come” to us, because the majority of redeemed mankind will live on a restored earthly paradise.

Jesus came to give us back all that Adam took from his children. We have to understand what we lost in order to appreciate what will be restored. (Rev 21:2-4)