What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

[Aunty Jane]

To what end?
It's not really a delusion if reality is being experienced.

As we see in the Bible a vision was not a reality...but it was perceived as one.

St. SteVen said:
That doesn't negate the fact that their soul was separated from their physical body.

Was it? Were the souls of those who had visions in the Bible separated from their bodies?
Where do you go in your dreams? Are you still in bed, or are you somewhere else experiencing something that at the time appears to be reality, until you wake up.

Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

That was the perception....but there cannot be two conflicting realities.....are you trying to merge the two?
Are you unconscious when you dream while your body is in bed but “you” (your consciousness) are somewhere else with people who may somehow feel familiar but you have never met them in real life.

In an NDE, there are a wide range of experiences in different people.... Different religious experiences....how do we explain that?

Two biblical positions have been presented here.
Why are you so insistent not to accept that both views are biblical?

The two biblical views cannot be contradictory.....they must be in agreement.
So instead of seeing one view as contradictory, there must be a reasonable explanation, so that the truth is maintained and the misinterpretation is identified.

Just because a view doesn't agree with your favorite doesn't make it a demonic delusion.

We cannot rule out demonic trickery.....the devil is a master of deception...he’s been at it a long time and especially is he intent on selling us his first lie...continuing to mislead us about death.
There is no mention of an immortal soul in any passage of scripture, because the “soul” is the whole living breathing creature. The spirit in man is not immortal either...it is the lifeforce that is perpetuated by breathing.....when breathing stops the soul dies. This is what the Bible says.....anything else is a contradiction.

The only way to live again is by resurrection......which is a restoration of life, either in heaven as a spirit being for the “saints”.....or on earth, to enjoy life as their subjects. There is nothing in man that is released at death to go somewhere....except the last breath....the “spirit” that returns to God, as he is the only one to return a person to life...to recreate the body and restore their breath (spirit) of life.

I’ve stated it so many times, but there can only be one truth.....we have to let the Bible tell it....not rely on experiences that can be manipulated by the forces that are intent on driving us away from the truth.
Satan’s first lie is still a lie.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
To what end?
It's not really a delusion if reality is being experienced.

As we see in the Bible a vision was not a reality...but it was perceived as one.

If you are referring to the Transfiguration, I disagree.
Why would Peter offer to build three shelters for a vision?
Moses and Elijah were actually there. (not unconsciously nonexistent)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That doesn't negate the fact that their soul was separated from their physical body.

Was it? Were the souls of those who had visions in the Bible separated from their bodies?
Where do you go in your dreams? Are you still in bed, or are you somewhere else experiencing something that at the time appears to be reality, until you wake up.

My dreams don't put me at the foot of my bed observing myself sleeping in real time.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

That was the perception....but there cannot be two conflicting realities.....are you trying to merge the two?
Are you unconscious when you dream while your body is in bed but “you” (your consciousness) are somewhere else with people who may somehow feel familiar but you have never met them in real life.

Their "perceptions" were confirmed in reality.
They gave an accurate report of what was happening while they were unconscious physically.

[

 

[walter]

...

I had a question please, when Jesus was dying He talked to the thief next to him about paradise, seriously where is the Paradise Jesus is talking about?

 

[St. SteVen]

I had a question please, when Jesus was dying He talked to the thief next to him about paradise, seriously where is the Paradise Jesus is talking about?

I'm not sure where it is. (heaven? Part of the realm of the dead?) ???
But they would both need to be conscious and existent to meet there.

[

 

[walter]

I feel we would get a more complete understanding of what The Bible intended for us to understand when we include all the scriptures we can find on that Bible topic.

Someone please give me a scripture that seems to explain all people automatically after death get everlasting life in heaven or hell?

 

[walter]

I'm not sure where it is. (heaven? Part of the realm of the dead?) ???
But they would both need to be conscious and existent to meet there.

[

At this time when Jesus was speaking to the thief, what did the thief understand in the Holy Scriptures at that time,
The Hebrew scriptures also called the Old Testament, people believe Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, but does the Hebrew scriptures explain this? Where do people live forever according to the Old Testament?

The Hebrew Scriptures that the thief would know about, explains there is going to be a New Earth and people will live forever upon it.

What Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalm 104:5, Psalm 37:10

Psalm 37:29
New International Version
The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

Psalm 37:29
Brenton Septuagint Translation [ The words in the Septuagint date before Jesus time. ]
But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever.

Psalm 37:9,11,18,27 (see also Psalm 37:22, and 34).
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Psalm 115:16
The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth He has given to mankind.

Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

Also:
kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met’ emou ese en to parad[eiso]. (“And immediately he said to me: ‘Most truly today I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.’”)–Descent into Hades, an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig,869, under Luke 23:43.
ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met’ emou. (“And he said to him: ‘Today I tell you the truth,
that I should have you in Paradise with me.’”)–Gospel of Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate)b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under Luke 23:43.

Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfth
century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 as “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” On that very day,when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Acts 10:40;1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18 ) Thus, the word “today” at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer’s being with Jesus in Paradise._

 

[GRACE ambassador]

More Deeper Bible study?:

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the grave (Part I)
Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the grave (Part II)

Amen.

 

[Wick Stick]

I had a question please, when Jesus was dying He talked to the thief next to him about paradise, seriously where is the Paradise Jesus is talking about?

Paradise is another name for the Garden of Eden, including especially the Tree of Life.

In Revelation 22 (the last chapter in the Bible), it is part of the New Jerusalem that comes down to the earth. Now, is it literal?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paradise is another name for the Garden of Eden, including especially the Tree of Life.

Paradise is where God intended for the human race descended from Adam, to “live forever” and “the tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that no one who partook of its fruit, died of any cause.

When disobedience led to the death penalty, God took action immediately to deny access to the tree of life.

Gen 3: 22-24...
“And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” (ASV)

Access was not just denied verbally, but physically as well, with a flaming sword and a guardian Cherub to make sure that no one ever had access to the tree of life in sinful flesh.

I guess the devil did not anticipate that move, because now he would have to constantly recruit new worshippers for himself as the old ones passed away. He managed to recruit his fellow angels and these acted as his henchmen, doing his dirty work for him....turning the world into a moral cess-pit.

In Revelation 22 (the last chapter in the Bible), it is part of the New Jerusalem that comes down to the earth. Now, is it literal?

Rev 21:2-4 tells us what God’s intentions are.....to take us back to the paradise conditions that satan’s rebellion took away from all of humankind descended from Adam.

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.“ (ASV)

The “bride” of Christ are seen bringing God’s rulership back to mankind on earth.....wiping the tears of sorrow and pain from all faces....and this is because man’s rulership, under the influence of satan the devil, has finally been removed to make way for the best government that the human race have ever known. God’s Kingdom will now rule the redeemed human race, taking away all causes of pain and suffering....forever!

This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come”....so that his will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
It’s not far away.

 

[walter]

Paradise is where God intended for the human race descended from Adam, to “live forever” and “the tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that no one who partook of its fruit, died of any cause.

When disobedience led to the death penalty, God took action immediately to deny access to the tree of life.

Gen 3: 22-24...
“And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” (ASV)

Access was not just denied verbally, but physically as well, with a flaming sword and a guardian Cherub to make sure that no one ever had access to the tree of life in sinful flesh.

I guess the devil did not anticipate that move, because now he would have to constantly recruit new worshippers for himself as the old ones passed away. He managed to recruit his fellow angels and these acted as his henchmen, doing his dirty work for him....turning the world into a moral cess-pit.


Rev 21:2-4 tells us what God’s intentions are.....to take us back to the paradise conditions that satan’s rebellion took away from all of humankind descended from Adam.

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.“ (ASV)

The “bride” of Christ are seen bringing God’s rulership back to mankind on earth.....wiping the tears of sorrow and pain from all faces....and this is because man’s rulership, under the influence of satan the devil, has finally been removed to make way for the best government that the human race have ever known. God’s Kingdom will now rule the redeemed human race, taking away all causes of pain and suffering....forever!

This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come”....so that his will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
It’s not far away.

Yes, Revelation 21:2-4 and Daniel 2:44 prophesy about God establishing an eternal, never-ending kingdom that will replace all earthly kingdoms, bringing perfect justice and peace to the entire earth.

Thank you sister for all your excellent scripture reasoning.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, Revelation 21:2-4 and Daniel 2:44 prophesy about God establishing an eternal, never-ending kingdom that will replace all earthly kingdoms, bringing perfect justice and peace to the entire earth.

That is something to really look forward to.....
And the Lord’s Prayer was Jesus speaking about the time when the Kingdom would “come”......meaning that it was to “come” to us on earth, rather than us going to it in heaven.....the earth was designed to be man’s permanent home...it will yet be the beautiful paradise that God designed it to be.....

 

[Jericho]

We were having this very discussion regarding soul sleep. For the sake of time, I'll cut and paste some of the verses I wrote:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8)

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 2-4)

And he (Jesus) was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (Mat 17:2-3). The apostilles here witnessed Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus long after they had died.

Saul went to see the Witch of Endor (1Sa 28), who summoned the ghost or spirit of Samuel. One could argue it was a demon, delusion, trick, or whatever (even though the spirit accurately prophesied Saul and his sons would die in battle the next day). The point here is not if it was actually the spirit of Samuel or not, but that they had a belief in an afterlife and the separation of soul from the body beyond the grave.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43). After Jesus was resurrected, the tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who died were also raised from the dead (Mat 27:52).

If we interpret these verses literally, then they clearly teach that life persists outside the physical body after death. If we believe that angels and demons are real yet intangible spirits (to us), then it shouldn't be a stretch to believe that the soul/spirit exists independently of the body. The body is merely a shell that contains the spirit/soul. When the body dies, we discard our old shells like hermit crabs. Someone mentioned NDEs. In some accounts, they accurately described what was happening to them when they should have been dead or at the very least unconscious. My own wife had an out-of-body experience once.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@St. SteVen your view is yours ‘to have and to hold till death do you part’.....but it has no scriptural backing.

Immortality of the soul is entirely based on a pagan Greek idea that spread into the whole world by its god and ruler...the one who wants humans to believe that they don’t really die. The entire pagan world believes this, but the Jews didn’t.
Jesus was a Jew who taught from Jewish Scripture.....there are no “immortal souls” in the Bible.
Because a “soul” is a living, breathing creature, so that when breathing stops, the soul dies......in humans it is because of sin. (Ezekiel 18:4) Animal “souls” have a natural cycle of life and death. (Eccl 3:19-20) Both end up in the same place.

If you are referring to the Transfiguration, I disagree.
Why would Peter offer to build three shelters for a vision?
Moses and Elijah were actually there. (not unconsciously nonexistent)

Jesus called it a “vision” because Moses and Elijah were long dead at that point in history, and Jesus was “the firstborn from the dead”. (Col 1:15) The first human to experience death in the flesh to be “made alive in the spirit”. No one went anywhere before Jesus did. (John 3:13) Jesus was still alive.

The apostles beheld a “vision”, not a dream or an hallucination, but an altered reality given to them exclusively.
It was in fulfillment of a promise Jesus made just days earlier, that some of those present would not see death until they had beheld Jesus in his kingdom glory. At the transfiguration, they did.
God’s kingdom on that occasion was represented by its King, a glorified Jesus Christ....with Moses representing the Law....and Elijah representing the prophets...the very foundation of God’s word and purpose for eventually ruling the redeemed human race.

My dreams don't put me at the foot of my bed observing myself sleeping in real time.

Are you saying that an altered state of mind could not produce such a thing? Medical science knows that a dying brain, deprived of oxygen, is flooded with chemicals that can alter their perception of reality. It doesn’t mean that they literally left their body to hover between life and death. There is no immortal soul to do that.

Their five senses were active while they looked down on their physical body.
They were having a fully conscious experience while their physical body was unconscious.

If you want to believe that, then nothing I say will change your mind...I can only assume that you have personal reasons for believing this, that won’t allow you to relinquish it. The scriptures however are not on your side.

Their "perceptions" were confirmed in reality.
They gave an accurate report of what was happening while they were unconscious physically.

And there is no way for the demons to influence someone too weak to know what they were experiencing...?

You underestimate the lengths they will go to perpetuate satan’s first lie....but it’s your choice to believe whatever you wish.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If we interpret these verses literally, then they clearly teach that life persists outside the physical body after death.

And therein lies the crux of the problem......interpretation.
If there is a different explanation that is backed up by knowing what those seemingly unarguable verses state in context, would we be willing to listen? None of them are saying what you assume that they do, through the lens that Christendom has given to the world.

If we believe that angels and demons are real yet intangible spirits, then it shouldn't be a stretch to believe that the soul/spirit exists independently of the body.

Spirit beings were created long before humans were. They were created as spirits to dwell in a spiritual realm that is not visible to humans on earth.
Each of God’s intelligent creations were placed in the realm where they were designed to live in appropriate bodies.
The fact that some humans were chosen to cross over to the other realm for the purpose of ruling and assisting those on earth to return to God in reconciliation, (Rev 20:6) does not mean that earth was merely a training ground for heaven. It means that God cared enough to have as our ‘rulers and priests’, those who have lived on earth in human flesh, like our King.

It means that they would have a level of compassion and empathy that angels would lack in that capacity. This is apparently what most people are missing....the reason why God chose some “from among mankind” to act in that capacity. It was a loving thing to do.

The body is merely a shell that contains the spirit/soul. When the body dies, we discard our old shells like hermit crabs. Someone mentioned NDEs. In some accounts, they actually described what was happening to them when the

You can be a hermit crab if you like, but I am very happy to stay right here where God designed humans to “live forever”. (Gen 3:22-24)
There is no such thing as an “immortal soul” mentioned in any passage of Scripture. None of the Scriptures you quoted mean what you assume them to mean. They have been taken out of context and put in another context to alter their original meaning.

Those who leave their bodies of flesh to take up their assignment in heaven are “chosen” by God for that role. As the appointed “kings and priests” assisting Jesus in his role as the main Ruler of mankind, we have to understand what this “Kingdom” rulership is designed to accomplish.

What did Jesus teach us in the Lord’s Prayer?.....”Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.....what was Jesus teaching us to pray for?
With the ‘coming’ of the Kingdom.....God’s rulership would take over control of the whole earth as it was prophesied in Daniel 2:44....it was going to “crush” all corrupt human rulership influenced by the devil, out of existence, (1 John 5:19) and replace them with one world government.....from heaven with Jesus directing everything.

This will then mean that for the first time in human history, mankind will be ruled by God, not satan. (Luke 4:5-7)

We don’t all need to go to heaven to experience the benefits of the kingdom...they will come to us here on earth so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. Both realms will, for the first time, be united as one family of God.

This was God’s first purpose, and what God wills is sure to have certain success. (Isa 55:11)

 

[walter]

At this time when Jesus was speaking to the thief, what did the thief understand in the Holy Scriptures at that time,
The Hebrew scriptures also called the Old Testament, people believe Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, but does the Hebrew scriptures explain this? Where do people live forever according to the Old Testament?

The Hebrew Scriptures that the thief would know about, explains there is going to be a New Earth and people will live forever upon it.

What Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalm 104:5, Psalm 37:10

Psalm 37:29
New International Version
The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

Psalm 37:29
Brenton Septuagint Translation [ The words in the Septuagint date before Jesus time. ]
But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever.

Psalm 37:9,11,18,27 (see also Psalm 37:22, and 34).
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Psalm 115:16
The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth He has given to mankind.

Accordingly, a fifth-century Curetonian Syriac version renders Jesus’ reply: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'” --Luke 23:43

Comma placement

In Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Could this also be interpreted as, “I say to you today, you will…” In other words is it more likely that “today” describes when “you will be with me” or when “I say to you”. kai eipen auto, Amen soi...

www.textkit.com

Also:
kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met’ emou ese en to parad[eiso]. (“And immediately he said to me: ‘Most truly today I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.’”)–Descent into Hades, an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig,869, under Luke 23:43.
ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met’ emou. (“And he said to him: ‘Today I tell you the truth,
that I should have you in Paradise with me.’”)–Gospel of Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate)b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under Luke 23:43.

Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the twelfth
century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke 23:43 as “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” On that very day,when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Acts 10:40;1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18 ) Thus, the word “today” at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer’s being with Jesus in Paradise._

Jesus will reign in his kingdom for a thousand years Revelation 20:4-6 . And There will be a new heavens and a new earth and New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven descending from heaven to the New Earth. Revelation 21:1, 2-4

Revelation 21:5 says: God is making all things new.

 

[Jack]

BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell FOREVER who don't believe in Hell

Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to Life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[quietthinker]

BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell FOREVER who don't believe in Hell

Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to Life and FEW there be who find it.

It appears you have the idea that the more you repeat these views and the harder you yell them, the greater chance they will come to fruition.
Has it occurred to you that all with your barking you might be on the side of the very fence you insist others will be?

 

[walter]

BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell FOREVER who don't believe in Hell

Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to Life and FEW there be who find it.

How are billions of humans going to feel any pain from the fire in Hell, when we read the scripture you just quoted:

New International Version
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:14

Think about the meaning of that scripture you quoted, if only few find life, wouldn't that mean the majority are not getting life? So billions with a destroyed body and a destroyed soul do not feel pain.

The Bible says the body and the soul are destroyed in Gehenna or Hell. -Read Matthew 10:28 If both the body and the soul are destroyed why would they feel anything?