WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[GodsGrace]

Really?

Is that why millions of Catholics were hoping that Pope Francis would DIE, before He did?
They are fighting inside their own cult right now over the fact that Francis ended the Latin Mass.

An example is that a devout Catholic named Mel Gibson, who directed "the Passion", has been for years, against this last Pope's attempt to lead the CC into "gay priests" and "no Latin mass" and other such directives that many in the CC, despise, openly, right now.



OSAS, was created to resist Paul's Doctrine of Grace., 2000 yrs ago.

Its created by Religious Jews, to get Christians to lose the correct understanding of God's Grace.... and they teach that "God's Grace is a license to sin".
Jude teaches that they twisted "God's Grace" into "Licentiiousness"...= the idea that its "license to sin"....and this deceive people into that mindset, and then they can't trust Christ to keep them saved.
So, OSAS is designed by religious Jews, 2000 yrs ago, to keep you inside SELF Righteousness.
That is what the Devil designed this false teaching to produce in a Christian.

The correct understanding of What Christ has accomplished for us on The Cross.... is not just that He Saves us, but that He keeps us saved........as if He doesnt.. then who keeps you saved?

The person who does not understand God's ETERNAL GIFT of Salvation......thinks....>>>"oh, i have to confess sin, and behave properly, and be water baptized, and try to be like Christ, and keep commandments......as i try to save MYSELF" ....because i dont have any Real faith in Christ to keep me saved.
They lost it.

A lot here...
must leave for a while.
later.

 

[David in NJ]

Adam "died spiritually" and that is the LOSS of Spirtual Union with God.

So, 2nd Adam came to restore spiritual union with God for these........>"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

And He does......ONE BELIEVER at a time..., daily, for the last 2000 yrs.



Its God's Spirit that made Adam alive......so, that is "ONE with God"........= Spiritual Union.



"you shall surely die"... is the Scripture.

And Adam and Eve didnt realize what God was saying.......and Satan deceived them into not believing it at all when He told them "you shall not surely die"..
Satan knew they would lose spiritual union......as he was not concerned so much with their body dying, which is the other Death, that came to them, because of their REBELLION.

So, they "transgressed" and their SIN separated them from God.... = "God is A Spirit".

Your SIN separated you from God's Spirit,........ and if you have believed in Christ by Faith.... then God has Spiritually birthed you, by His Holy Spirit, as "ONE with God"... 'IN CHRIST">...and that is Spiritiual Union with God.....restored, that Adam lost for you, and for us all.

Water Baptism does not do this for you.....as water is just water.

And He does......ONE BELIEVER at a time..., daily, for the last 2000 yrs.

Actually God started with Adam, way before the Incarnation

 

[Hepzibah]

It means to RESTART a relationship with them as you had before.

Yes agreed and as I said before Adam was not united with God because he would have been wearing the full armour. The relationship was one where Adam still had to prove himself so he was not saved.

It depends on what credit you give to the early church who taught The Way of Purgation Illumination and Union. One problem though, God will give revelation to true seekers only, so ones attitude means everything.

If you are seeking Illumination then you must be showing God that you really mean business in getting on the right footing by your obedience and humility.

 

[GodsGrace]

Really?

Is that why millions of Catholics were hoping that Pope Francis would DIE, before He did?
They are fighting inside their own cult right now over the fact that Francis ended the Latin Mass.

There have been bad Popes throughout history, but the CC has held together .... till now.
I agree with you re the feelings of Pope Francis. He split the CC in half and I'm not sure this one is any better from the little I've heard him speak.

The problem goes way beyond the Latin Mass, but this isn't the right thread.

An example is that a devout Catholic named Mel Gibson, who directed "the Passion", has been for years, against this last Pope's attempt to lead the CC into "gay priests" and "no Latin mass" and other such directives that many in the CC, despise, openly, right now.

Agreed.
But this is nothing compared to the many Protestant denominations that one could wade through when looking for a church.

OSAS, was created to resist Paul's Doctrine of Grace., 2000 yrs ago.

2,000 years ago OSAS was not heard of.
OR
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Its created by Religious Jews, to get Christians to lose the correct understanding of God's Grace.... and they teach that "God's Grace is a license to sin".
Jude teaches that they twisted "God's Grace" into "Licentiiousness"...= the idea that its "license to sin"....and this deceive people into that mindset, and then they can't trust Christ to keep them saved.

But the OSAS crowd does state that one can sin and still be saved. (a life of sin - we all sin).
I've heard this many times and in different versions.l

So, OSAS is designed by religious Jews, 2000 yrs ago, to keep you inside SELF Righteousness.
That is what the Devil designed this false teaching to produce in a Christian.

Sorry B,,,I'm not understanding.
If a person believes in unconditional eternal security (OSAS) HOW is this self-righteousness??

The correct understanding of What Christ has accomplished for us on The Cross.... is not just that He Saves us, but that He keeps us saved........as if He doesnt.. then who keeps you saved?

Christ keeps us saved if we OBEY Him.
If we don't obey Christ, then we do not belong to God.

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever * keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

The person who does not understand God's ETERNAL GIFT of Salvation......thinks....>>>"oh, i have to confess sin, and behave properly, and be water baptized, and try to be like Christ, and keep commandments......as i try to save MYSELF" ....because i dont have any Real faith in Christ to keep me saved.
They lost it.

You're doing what I stated above.
Everything you've stated above is contrary to what the NT teaches:
1. We are to confess our sins. 1 John 1 and 2
2. We are to behave properly. Matthew 7:24, 26 The foolish man and the wise man.
3. Jesus commanded baptism.
4. We must obey God -- keep His commandments.

Anyone who leads another astray is not doing the will of God. Matthew 24

I'm not posting scripture because I don't intend to change the topic of this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes agreed and as I said before Adam was not united with God because he would have been wearing the full armour. The relationship was one where Adam still had to prove himself so he was not saved.

It depends on what credit you give to the early church who taught The Way of Purgation Illumination and Union. One problem though, God will give revelation to true seekers only, so ones attitude means everything.

If you are seeking Illumination then you must be showing God that you really mean business in getting on the right footing by your obedience and humility.

Whether or not Adam was saved is a good topic.
He certainly was saved in the beginning.
Was he saved after the fall?
Eve said the Lord gave her a child, so some type of relationship was present.
Also, they raised Cain and Abel to worship God.

Just some thoughts.

 

[GodsGrace]

WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?​

• Thread starterGodsGrace
• Start dateJun 19, 2025

Believe it or not the water used in John 3:5 signifies the gospel. Elsewhere in Scripture, it is said that "all born again believers have in them this "living water" (John 7:38).

He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (Gospel).

That is, when believers witnesses to nonbelievers and these become saved it's because they heard the true Gospel! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).

And this is my take in undersetting of the subject.

To God Be the Glory

Hi JunChosen
I'd say that between all the choices listed in the OP....the WATER meaning the gospel, or the word of God, is the least accepted.
I tend to go along with that conclusion.

Right now I tend to agree with @David in NJ in his post no. 166

Thanks for posting!

 

[GodsGrace]

Apparently, natural birth of water in the mother's womb has been debunk by Jesus, after Nicodemus spoke of it as he understood.

Clearly, it was the water baptism upon repentance, as Jesus and His disciples were too water baptizing after John, and it continued to the book of Acts.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

I agree that it certainly can be baptism.
Further on in John 3 .... John does explain how Jesus went on to baptize persons via the Apostles.

But HOW did Jesus debunk the physical aspect of water?
Didn't Jesus say what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit?
Isn't Jesus comparing the two?

This is what leads me to believe that the WATER is natural birth.
(I've never been sure of this).

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not again or anew. That was an error in translating made by Erasmus over 500 years ago. And the modern translators keep the error due to tradition even though it's wrong.

Nothing much was made of it until around the turn of the 19th century when it became a marketing campaign focusing on the personal relationship we have with Jesus.
Strongs lexicon of course is going to keep the error....

But then you have to completely erase the Anthropology of the Jews and make it fit this theology. The Born from Above classification of the heroes of Israel's past....which is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus he belonged to.. (Which gave Nicodemus a startle as evidenced by his claim to need a whole life do-over)

Scriptures are written in a very compact and restricted fashion. Paper and ink were expensive. Obvious information was always left out of any writing. (Which gave rise to Jewish Talmud tales) Like how many times Nicodemus knocked on the door, or that early evening into dark is Social Time in Israel. (Still is to this day) These bits of information are left up to the reader to insert for themselves. Same thing for those classified as "Born From Above" which the Jews still have as a Caste to this day. (They put a Hebrew name on it)

This whole "Born again " theology is American wackanoodle stuff out of mistranslating a single word that did not make sense to Erasmus. God may love Americans as much as anyone else in the world but He loves THE WHOLE WORLD....every tribe, nation, and language. (It is His creation)

It's OK to admit error....just admit it, ask forgiveness and move on. Don't double down claiming you are always right. It does you no favors. Makes someone look prideful and unapproachable. This is Christian discussion board where we have a chance to learn and grow from each other. Not argue over the dumbest stuff..

Besides....where it looks like it gives fuel for Calvinists....it really doesn't. Think it through...don't double down and not give it a second thought. Analyze what I have said carefully.

Hi John,,,,
I had read about the above some years ago...
how it should read BORN FROM ABOVE and what ABOVE means.

Could you explain better what BORN FROM ABOVE means?
Difficult for me to understand why I have a problem with John 3:5
I know that J the B baprized for the forgiveness of sin.
HE said that one would come after him baptizing with fire and the Spirit.

Does Jesus mean, in John 3:5, that one must be born of water (baptized for the forgiveness of sin)
and THEN ALSO with the Spirit?
BUT, is not the Spirit found in the water?

So wouldn't this make John 3:5 say:
born of spirit and the spirit?
(this is what I find confusing).


I agree that BORN AGAIN has come to mean different things to different persons....
it has come for some to believe that this is all that is necessary for salvation but the NT does not teach this....
It brings to OSAS, for instance.
I think it's a dangerous idea to expound on.

ALTHOUGH...I DO believe that we come to a point in time in our lives where we have to make a conscious decision to Know, Love and Serve God. This is what I used to teach my religion kids.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong. The spiritual washing or purification of the soul (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) at the moment of salvation is not Spirit both times. Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Hi
I understand that some on this thread believe the water to be the word of God.
I've come to the conclusion that this is the least likely explanation.
Water is used as the word....correct.
But it's also used for baptism and John goes on to state that Jesus was baptizing person just a few verses down (maybe John 3:20?)
Also, the baptism with water seems, to me, to be more prevalent throughout the bible.

 

[Fred J]

I agree that it certainly can be baptism.
Further on in John 3 .... John does explain how Jesus went on to baptize persons via the Apostles.

GOD bless you in Jesus name

But HOW did Jesus debunk the physical aspect of water?

Didn't Jesus say what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit?
Isn't Jesus comparing the two?

He did not debunk the natural nature of water and is vital in the matter of born again, nor the water birth in the mother's womb.

He said, '............, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOD.

Next the comparison is, what is born of flesh and blood a human body, is flesh and blood a human body. The same flesh and blood a human body on the other hand born of the Holy Ghost, is a spirit person within.

The new spiritual person within who will bridle one's flesh and blood human body and all it's members to that of the Kingdom of GOD through Christ in the New Testament.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholics are taught to Pray to Mary, who delivers their Prayers to Jesus.
They are taught that Mary is working with Jesus, hand in hand, to save Humanity.
So, this is MaryCult theology, that tries to connect Mary and Jesus as both necessary for Salvaiton.
And that denies Jesus, all credit due Him, alone.
So, that is demonic theology, that is presented sweetly as "precious mary" the "mediatrix".... and many are decieved by it.
Billions in fact.

I'm not here to defend the CC.
I agree that we should be giving ALL the credit to Jesus.
Much of what you say is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes agreed and as I said before Adam was not united with God because he would have been wearing the full armour. The relationship was one where Adam still had to prove himself so he was not saved.

It depends on what credit you give to the early church who taught The Way of Purgation Illumination and Union. One problem though, God will give revelation to true seekers only, so ones attitude means everything.

If you are seeking Illumination then you must be showing God that you really mean business in getting on the right footing by your obedience and humility.

Can't remember if I've already replied to this....
Adam walked with God.
God created him and allowed him to name the animals...a priviledge.
God said that it was VERY GOOD after creating Adam.

You're right that Adam had to prove himself.
By obeying God....
he didn't.

And I agree with you 100% about getting on the right footing with God by obedience and humility.

Some on these forums seem to think that obedience to God is not all that important.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi
I understand that some on this thread believe the water to be the word of God.
I've come to the conclusion that this is the least likely explanation.
Water is used as the word....correct.
But it's also used for baptism and John goes on to state that Jesus was baptizing person just a few verses down (maybe John 3:20?)
Also, the baptism with water seems, to me, to be more prevalent throughout the bible.

In regard to water baptism in John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing..

I believe the water in John 3:5 pertains to living water and/or the word of God and that water baptism is the least likely explanation as I already explained in posts #35 and #174.

 

[David in NJ]

In regard to water baptism in John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing..

I believe the water in John 3:5 pertains to living water and/or the word of God and that water baptism is the least likely explanation as I already explained in posts #35 and #174.

The scripture Says: "Jesus did not baptize with water but His disciples were doing the water baptisms"

John 4:2 - "although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."

If the 'water' from John 3:1-10 is the "living water" why did JESUS separate the 'water' from the 'wind'

JESUS made it as clear as day when HE made the comparison between the 'water' and the 'wind'
"that which is flesh is flesh" = water birth

JESUS only specified that the "WIND" is the "SPIRIT" = "that which is Spirit is spirit"

People tend to over spiritualize the Scriptures = long time ago i was part of a church that would do that

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit made it crystal clear in Acts that water is not necessary for the New Birth
the Apostle Paul even recognized how water baptism was outward and causing divisions in the Body

JESUS Says "Spirit is spirit" = we cannot attain unto the Spirit of God thru the flesh

Notice how the RCC is all about the outward flesh in seeking to approach God

 

[Hepzibah]

Can't remember if I've already replied to this....
Adam walked with God.
God created him and allowed him to name the animals...a priviledge.
God said that it was VERY GOOD after creating Adam.

You're right that Adam had to prove himself.
By obeying God....
he didn't.

And I agree with you 100% about getting on the right footing with God by obedience and humility.

Some on these forums seem to think that obedience to God is not all that important.

I believe that God created Adam to choose to be united with Him in perfect obedience, but that it required a test before that could happen, as willingness was vital, as love cannot be forced. So He created him innocent, without sin, and so therefore he could communicate with God but was not in the position that God desired for him.

I don't like that term 'relationship with God' it seems to let us think that one can be in union and still sin. The OT shows us that God cannot live where there is sin. We are either in Christ or not in Christ, in the Spirit or in the flesh.

So the testing was necessary and we know that Adam failed and was therefore cast out. The unitedness failed.

I believe that we also are born as Adam was, and with the age of accountability (maybe age 4) are tested too. However, because Satan is in the mix, and because he gained access to us after Adam fell, we fall too.

Finding faith in God is the first step however to be united to God there is a further step. Agreement to be in Christ in the crucifixion in order to be part of the resurrection and into zoe life.

 

[mailmandan]

The scripture Says: "Jesus did not baptize with water but His disciples were doing the water baptisms"

John 4:2 - "although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."

If the 'water' from John 3:1-10 is the "living water" why did JESUS separate the 'water' from the 'wind'

JESUS made it as clear as day when HE made the comparison between the 'water' and the 'wind'
"that which is flesh is flesh" = water birth

JESUS only specified that the "WIND" is the "SPIRIT" = "that which is Spirit is spirit"

People tend to over spiritualize the Scriptures = long time ago i was part of a church that would do that

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit made it crystal clear in Acts that water is not necessary for the New Birth
the Apostle Paul even recognized how water baptism was outward and causing divisions in the Body

JESUS Says "Spirit is spirit" = we cannot attain unto the Spirit of God thru the flesh

Notice how the RCC is all about the outward flesh in seeking to approach God

The Greek word for spirit is "pneuma" where we get "wind" or even "breath." Jesus' response to Nicodemus was to clarify his confusion about entering a second time into the mother's womb in order to be born.

Jesus mentions "drink" and He connects living water in John 4:10 and John 4:14 with everlasting life. Living water is certainly not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but is not the means of securing it.

The RCC teaches baptismal regeneration which I strongly disagree with.

 

[David in NJ]

The Greek word for spirit is "pneuma" where we get "wind" or even "breath." Jesus' response to Nicodemus was to clarify his confusion about entering a second time into the mother's womb in order to be born.

Jesus mentions "drink" and He connects living water in John 4:10 and John 4:14 with everlasting life. Living water is certainly not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but is not the means of securing it.

The RCC teaches baptismal regeneration which I strongly disagree with.

Thank you for clarifying

 

[GodsGrace]

GOD bless you in Jesus name

He did not debunk the natural nature of water and is vital in the matter of born again, nor the water birth in the mother's womb.

He said, '............, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOD.

Next the comparison is, what is born of flesh and blood a human body, is flesh and blood a human body. The same flesh and blood a human body on the other hand born of the Holy Ghost, is a spirit person within.

The new spiritual person within who will bridle one's flesh and blood human body and all it's members to that of the Kingdom of GOD through Christ in the New Testament.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

You touched on a theological idea that I like.
The trichotomy of man.

Man is made of 3 parts. Body, Soul, Spirit.
The body and soul comprise man in his natural state.
When we add the spirit, man becomes complete and is once again reconciled to Go.

 

[amigo de christo]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Being born of water has naught to do with the womb that man or woman came out of .
Let us pay real close attention
LEST one is born of water and the SPIRIT , HE cannot ENTER INTO the KINGDOM of GOD .
this is SPIRITUAL REBIRTH my friend . and How does one hear
BY THE WORD . ITS all about having to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
Every bit of it . many , in fact i do not know of one person
who is not been born of woman , CEPT ADAM , CEPT EVE .
AND YET MANY throughout all ages , DID NOT enter into the KINGDOM OF GOD .
the flesh profits NOT one thing . SO we can easily rule out it has to do with water of the womb of woman .
The water OF THE WORD . one must BELEIVE .
And what is THIS WORD i speak of my friend . THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST , THE WORD OF GOD
But thanks for asking the question my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

I get pretty frustrated reading some that seem to be saying that obedience is not necessary, only faith is necessary.
This brings to really bad theology...so a rest every now and then is good.

Also, yes, make a trip. So many beautiful things to see here.
It would take a lot of time....see the big cities and sights and then see the REAL Italy.
Getting together will be easy because I live really close to Pisa and Florence, so no problem.
Just do it !

yeah its darn frustrating aint it my friend .
But i would like to say it real simple .
You wrote that some seem to be saying that OBEDIANCE is not necessary , only faith is necessary .
WELL what i write to one i write to all .
WHERE IS ones faith , ones beleif if one OBEYS not THE VERY GOD and HIS CHRIST they claim to have faith IN my friend .
IN other words NO OBEDIANCE IS A DARN CLEAR SIGN one has NOT FAITH .
Abraham had FAITH .
Lets sum it up real simple .
GOD SPOKE , Abraham beleived and DID what GOD said . OBEDIANCE is the key
to who we truly trust and have faith in my friend .
IT just seems many have DEAD faith , faith in a jesus or a god men presented to them .
And that one cannot save .
IN fact what i see is a nightmare growing massive in christendom right now .
MANY sure do seem to have MUCH FAITH , MUCH LOVE , MUCH BELEIF , MUCH OBEDIANCE
ONLY IT AINTIN GOD AT ALL . its men who pump lies to this people . and well THAT FAITH IS DEAD DEAD DEAD
cause faith in man , faith in a lie , WELL IT DARN sure aint IN GOD at all OR HIS CHRIST .
REMINDS me of what JESUS told
them . IN VAIN ye worship GOD through the precepts and doctrines of men . OOOPSY we GOT BIG PROBLEMS TODAY .