What is this thing called "sin"?

[justaname]

5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. - 1 Timothy 1:5-11

Please re-read this section of Scripture paying close attention to verse 5 and verses 8 and 9.

We in our above posts have agreed that Jesus is the standard we must look to for guidance and salvation. Just as the serpent was lifted in the wilderness so must the Son of Man be lifted. We look to Christ and see life, yet looking to the Law only brings death. Because it only brings death it also points to the One that can give life. The Law is unobtainable whereas Christ is obtainable, we are being conformed into His image.

We are the just being justified in Christ. Christ's standard far exceeds the Law, Him being perfect in every aspect of the Law. We are not called to perfection in the Law rather perfection in love, perfection in Christ. The former is impossible for man and was completed for us, the latter is possible only in Christ and will be completed in us as God's word promises. The Law was not laid down for the just, but for the unjust.

The Law still has validity in human society. It points the ungodly to Christ. It shows sinners their faults and gives them guidance into what is right from wrong. Yet even these commands they twist into meanings that were never intended. Some bend and stretch them so as to avoid the vigor of their content. Others make them so ridged and brittle they can only be broken.

The Law cannot bring life so we cannot be under it. We are under grace through our faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice for sin and His resurrection for our justification. We can learn from the Law, yet we are to press on to the maturity that is only found in Christ.

The Law was handed down from Moses to the nation of Israel. It was these nation people, and only these people, that bound themselves by oath to the Law. The Law contains 613 mitzvot. Every command has validity to human society. We as Christians do not point to these commands that bring death rather to Christ that brings life. We have put our hand to the plow, tilling the land to bring forth the rich harvest God will provide that is salvation in Christ. Let us not look back so as to waver in our lines by directing towards Law.

 

[StanJ]

Let me ask you...it is my contention that the Ten Commandments are still valid. They cannot be "done away" because they are basic, fundamental laws...necessary to human society.
What say you?

Come on Barrd, you should know better than to cross post like this. Is it because you're losing your argument?

 

[heretoeternity]

Yup Jesus told the adultress, when they were going to stone her.....keep on with what you are doing? Oh thats for the benefit of those who think the Ten commandments are eliminated....
For those who still believe in and follow the Ten commandments Jesus actually said "go and sin no more" John 8

 

[Barrd]

5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. - 1 Timothy 1:5-11

Please re-read this section of Scripture paying close attention to verse 5 and verses 8 and 9.

And yet this same Paul has also written:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We in our above posts have agreed that Jesus is the standard we must look to for guidance and salvation. Just as the serpent was lifted in the wilderness so must the Son of Man be lifted. We look to Christ and see life, yet looking to the Law only brings death. Because it only brings death it also points to the One that can give life. The Law is unobtainable whereas Christ is obtainable, we are being conformed into His image.

How we Christians have whitewashed the crucifixion! The horror of it! The shame of it! You say "We look to Christ and see life" and yet He died for our sins. It was sin that drove those spikes through that innocent flesh! Our sin...mine, and yours. And what is sin? It is disobedience to our God. It is doing what He has forbidden. It is, as the Beloved Disciple tells us, transgression of the law.
Is the law "unobtainable"? Not with the Lord with me, no, it is not. Or do you not believe that we can do all things through Christ, Who gives us His Own strength? When you say we are being conformed to His image, doesn't that mean that we, too, will be without sin?

We are the just being justified in Christ. Christ's standard far exceeds the Law, Him being perfect in every aspect of the Law. We are not called to perfection in the Law rather perfection in love, perfection in Christ. The former is impossible for man and was completed for us, the latter is possible only in Christ and will be completed in us as God's word promises. The Law was not laid down for the just, but for the unjust.

Perfection in love. What a pretty phrase. Perfection in Christ. Yes.
As you say, Christ's standard far exceeds the Law.
You say the law was not laid down for the just, but for the unjust.
Can you find for me, then, this "just" person?
I know it isn't me...and I'm betting it isn't you, either. You have your moments when you are thinking only of yourself, just as we all have.

The Law still has validity in human society. It points the ungodly to Christ. It shows sinners their faults and gives them guidance into what is right from wrong. Yet even these commands they twist into meanings that were never intended. Some bend and stretch them so as to avoid the vigor of their content. Others make them so ridged and brittle they can only be broken.

As long as the Law has validity in human society, it has not been "done away". As you say, the Law is our guide as to what is right from what is wrong.

The Law cannot bring life so we cannot be under it. We are under grace through our faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice for sin and His resurrection for our justification. We can learn from the Law, yet we are to press on to the maturity that is only found in Christ.

The Law cannot bring life...but Jesus can. I don't understand how being "under grace" must necessarily mean that we need not obey God any more. Indeed, Jesus seems to think that obeying is absolutely essential. If we love Him, we will obey Him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
....
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The Law was handed down from Moses to the nation of Israel. It was these nation people, and only these people, that bound themselves by oath to the Law. The Law contains 613 mitzvot. Every command has validity to human society. We as Christians do not point to these commands that bring death rather to Christ that brings life. We have put our hand to the plow, tilling the land to bring forth the rich harvest God will provide that is salvation in Christ. Let us not look back so as to waver in our lines by directing towards Law.

The Ten Commandments were written by the hand of God, Himself, on tablets of stone, to indicate their permanence. They were placed within the Ark of the Covenant.
They were never "done away"...nor can they be.

 

[Barrd]

Come on Barrd, you should know better than to cross post like this. Is it because you're losing your argument?

What are you talking about, Stan? I'm not sure what you mean by "cross post"?

As for me losing my argument...do you think that really matters to me? What matters to me is God's truth, Stan.
I'm quite sure that most people are never going to accept God's authority over them. l realize that the notion that one need not concern oneself with any rules is intoxicating. The notion that being "under grace" means that there is no more law...yeah, I can definitely see how someone can get attached to that.
And yet, I feel compelled to keep on sounding the warning. I will continue to hope that maybe I might get through to even one other. I already know I'm not going to reach most folks.
Sin is disobedience to the God Who created you. You are not your own, you are bought with a price. You have a Master...a Shepherd that you are to follow. He loves you so much that He died for your disobedience...and do you repay Him by continuing in that disobedience?

Yes, I am destined to "lose my argument", and I knew that going in.
But, hey...you will not be able to say that nobody told you...

 

[justaname]

And yet this same Paul has also written:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

How we Christians have whitewashed the crucifixion! The horror of it! The shame of it! You say "We look to Christ and see life" and yet He died for our sins. It was sin that drove those spikes through that innocent flesh! Our sin...mine, and yours. And what is sin? It is disobedience to our God. It is doing what He has forbidden. It is, as the Beloved Disciple tells us, transgression of the law.
Is the law "unobtainable"? Not with the Lord with me, no, it is not. Or do you not believe that we can do all things through Christ, Who gives us His Own strength? When you say we are being conformed to His image, doesn't that mean that we, too, will be without sin?

Perfection in love. What a pretty phrase. Perfection in Christ. Yes.
As you say, Christ's standard far exceeds the Law.
You say the law was not laid down for the just, but for the unjust.
Can you find for me, then, this "just" person?
I know it isn't me...and I'm betting it isn't you, either. You have your moments when you are thinking only of yourself, just as we all have.

As long as the Law has validity in human society, it has not been "done away". As you say, the Law is our guide as to what is right from what is wrong.

The Law cannot bring life...but Jesus can. I don't understand how being "under grace" must necessarily mean that we need not obey God any more. Indeed, Jesus seems to think that obeying is absolutely essential. If we love Him, we will obey Him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
....
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The Ten Commandments were written by the hand of God, Himself, on tablets of stone, to indicate their permanence. They were placed within the Ark of the Covenant.
They were never "done away"...nor can they be.

Due to time constraints I have a few questions without responses.

1. Do you believe we are justified by our faith in Jesus or by obeying the 10 commandments?

2. When did I say being under grace means we don't have to obey God?

3. If the 10 commandments were put on stone to indicate their permanence why would God then write His laws on our hearts?

4. What in my post indicates I do not comprehend the brutality and severity of Jesus' sacrifice by "whitewashing" it?

5. When did I say the 10 commandments were "done away"?

 

[Barrd]

Due to time constraints I have a few questions without responses.

I do understand about time constraints.

1. Do you believe we are justified by our faith in Jesus or by obeying the 10 commandments?

We are justified by our faith in Jesus, of course. But it is that very faith in Jesus that constrains us to obey Him, isn't it?

2. When did I say being under grace means we don't have to obey God?

It ought to be a joy and a privilege for us to obey our God. I'm sure you, like me, see it that way.
However, many do not seem to share our joy.

3. If the 10 commandments were put on stone to indicate their permanence why would God then write His laws on our hearts?

Oh, I like the way you think. Good point! I would say that God put them on stone first to show us their permanence...and our own need for Him. Later, He put them on our hearts to show His love.

4. What in my post indicates I do not comprehend the brutality and severity of Jesus' sacrifice by "whitewashing" it?

I'm afraid that is a pet peeve of mine. Seriously, people do tend to say "He was crucified for our sins" with an airy wave of the hand...had you never noticed? Me, when I hear the word "crucified" I cringe. In my mind, I can hear the ring of the hammer as it comes crashing down...I can see the sparks struck when metal hits metal...I can almost feel the impact in my own flesh...I can smell the blood mingled with the sweat of the soldiers...and hear the cries of those watching as their loved ones suffer...
I apologize for taking my frustration out on you.

5. When did I say the 10 commandments were "done away"?

That seems to be the general consensus. If you do not agree with the majority, that is good, and again, I apologize. I seem to spend quite a bit of time here trying to get people to understand that the Ten Commandments have not been "done away", nor could they be.

 

[justaname]

Barrd,

If we are justified through faith in Christ then I have found you one "just" person...you...and we can include all other Christians for that matter.

You were once a meager sinner, yet now you are saved by God through His grace because of your faith; that makes you a saint, that makes you "just" before God. And the Law did what it was supposed to do, point you to Christ. It served its purpose and because you believe you are not now bound to it, nor were you ever bound unless you are a Hebrew. Who you are bound to is your Master whom purchased you for a price. His commands are easy and burden light...Love God Above All and Love Others as Yourself. Believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah. Yet here is the conundrum...which of us can say we are doing these perfectly. Still our need for Christ persists.

And a little side note...God wrote His laws on stone tablets, yet Moses broke them into pieces before even giving them to the Israelites...interesting don't you think when we are looking at permanence.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

If we are justified through faith in Christ then I have found you one "just" person...you...and we can include all other Christians for that matter.

You were once a meager sinner, yet now you are saved by God through His grace because of your faith; that makes you a saint, that makes you "just" before God. And the Law did what it was supposed to do, point you to Christ. It served its purpose and because you believe you are not now bound to it, nor were you ever bound unless you are a Hebrew. Who you are bound to is your Master whom purchased you for a price. His commands are easy and burden light...Love God Above All and Love Others as Yourself. Believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah. Yet here is the conundrum...which of us can say we are doing these perfectly. Still our need for Christ persists.

And a little side note...God wrote His laws on stone tablets, yet Moses broke them into pieces before even giving them to the Israelites...interesting don't you think when we are looking at permanence.

Yes, indeed, I like the way you think.

Justaname, I do assure you, I am a sinner...even if only in my mind. My heart is just as wicked as the next guy's...and I'm betting, so is yours. Christians are not Christians because they are "just people". They come to Jesus for forgiveness. They come to Him to heal their broken spirit. We come to Him wearing our filthy rags, so that He might dress us in a clean white robe.

I find it interesting that so many folks want to bypass the Ten C's because they were given to the House of Israel. Do you not know, then, that the New Covenant...yes, the one that is so very precious to every Christian...was also given to the House of Israel? I'm sure you know the prophecy in Jeremiah, as well as the verses from Hebrews...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

And just to make sure everyone knows that, even after the cross, the New Covenant was for Israel:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

I believe that the 10 Commandments were in force long before God called Abraham...long before there was an Israel. I can't prove it, of course, except that folks did seem to be aware that certain things had been forbidden, long before Moses was ever born.

My Master says "If you love Me, obey Me." I love Him. Therefore, I will strive to obey Him with all of my strength...and when my own strength is not enough, He will let me draw on His strength.

And a little side note...God wrote His laws on stone tablets, yet Moses broke them into pieces before even giving them to the Israelites...interesting don't you think when we are looking at permanence.

:unsure: I never really saw it quite that way before.
God gives His Law to man, and man promptly breaks it. Nice metaphor.

Of course, God simply went to work and wrote His laws on new tablets of stone.
"Graven in stone" is another metaphor....

 

[brakelite]

If love is the fulfilling of the law....

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


and sin is transgression against the law...

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

then sin must be the opposite of love, which is selfishness.

Ezek. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[tom55]

So, evidently, Paul is not teaching that the law has been "done away."
And neither is John.
Important information!

And Jesus says:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I love Him. Therefore, I will strive to keep His commandments.
And I have this promise:

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I suppose one could read all of the NT, find and list His commandments, then make sure you keep (obey) them so that you know you are obeying Him.
One of the things He said was "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you". To me that sounds like a commandment. So how does one fill that commandment?

I am not trying to get side tracked on the argument is communion a symbol or His real flesh and blood. I am just pointing out something He said that seems like a commandment to me, Tom55, and how do I fulfill that commandment. (The big 10 from Exodus are easy to figure out)

 

[tom55]

I'm a bit confused, here.
I'm told that all have sinned.
I'm told that our sin has separated us from God.
I am told that it is our sin that put Our Lord, Jesus Christ up on the cross.
I believe these things.
But what is "sin"?
The Beloved Disciple has the answer:
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
But..how is this so? A great many people on this board seem to think that there is no more law. The law, they tell me, has been "done away". It is no more.
So, how are we transgressing the law? Where there is no law, there is no sin.

Sin is a moral evil. Now it's just a matter of figuring out who's moral's we are going to gage that by.

 

[tom55]

Stan, I like you. Like I said before, you remind me of my Grandfather.
He got into a debate once with my uncle, who went to the library and produced several reference books to prove his point.
My grandfather swept them from the table, and declared "They shouldna let fools write books!" And that was the end of the argument.

Now, what that old man knew, he knew well, that is true. The problem was that what he didn't know, he also knew better than anyone else.
He fought tooth and nail against indoor plumbing...but once he had experienced an indoor bathroom, he was hooked. Before long, that old farmhouse had three of them.
And he kept his money, first in a mattress, and then in a built in wall safe. Having lived through the depression, he didn't trust banks.
You might say he was set in his ways...

The Barrd!

I love this story about your grandfather. By using this story of your grandfather you articulated well your feelings/thoughts to StanJ. It was well written and made your point....Good job! (nothing against stanj, just kudos to you)

 

[Barrd]

If love is the fulfilling of the law....

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another; for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


and sin is transgression against the law...

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

then sin must be the opposite of love, which is selfishness.

Ezek. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This is beautiful, my brother!

 

[Barrd]

I suppose one could read all of the NT, find and list His commandments, then make sure you keep (obey) them so that you know you are obeying Him.
One of the things He said was "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you". To me that sounds like a commandment. So how does one fill that commandment?

I am not trying to get side tracked on the argument is communion a symbol or His real flesh and blood. I am just pointing out something He said that seems like a commandment to me, Tom55, and how do I fulfill that commandment. (The big 10 from Exodus are easy to figure out)

One recognizes a metaphor, Tom.
Unless you think that Jesus sliced bits of His actual flesh to feed the Apostles at the Last Supper, and gave them His actual blood to drink? I read it as bread and wine:

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd!

I love this story about your grandfather. By using this story of your grandfather you articulated well your feelings/thoughts to StanJ. It was well written and made your point....Good job! (nothing against stanj, just kudos to you)

How I loved that old man! But I learned early that you didn't argue with him.

 

[Barrd]

Sin is a moral evil. Now it's just a matter of figuring out who's moral's we are going to gage that by.

I have decided that I will gauge that by my Lord and my God, Jesus the Christ.
Let others do as they may, I will follow my Shepherd...I may stumble at times, and have trouble keeping up, but He waits for me. There's even been a couple of times when I sort of turned off the path, and He had to come and look for me and bring me back...
But through it all, I know that He loves me.
And I love Him...

 

[StanJ]

We were talking about my grandfather, not some deep theological issue, Stan. Obviously, you couldn't possibly know anything at all about the man, and now you want to talk about logic? I know you think you have to know just everything, but this is a tad over the top, even for you.

Thanks tip, but I addressed his logic that YOU used. Seems marksman is not the only one with a problem of understanding abstracts, although I didn't think this was.

Honestly, nobody is "gossiping" about anyone. That veiled barb failed to hit it's target. And you should be ashamed of yourself for even trying that one, Stan. I'm surprised at you.
As for finding support on the net...given that one could find support for just about any idea you could possibly imagine on the internet, that really isn't as impressive as you seem to think. Every denomination has it's accomplished scholars. For that matter, every religion has them. I'd bet we could pull up support for Wicca, for Neo Paganism, for Satanism...you name it, someone has written a paper on it.

How exactly would you know this? In any event I was talking about YOUR response in bringing up others. You seem to not understand your own posts and what you say in them? That is probably why you're surprised. Do you ever proof read what you write here. Could help to read it back to yourself.
My point is NOT the false teaching out there but the good teaching that supports my POV. You not being able to recognize it, or refusing to is YOUR problem, which wouldn't change even if I personally wrote it all down. Your use of strawmen gets worse and worse everyday.

I do not believe that you are "more knowledgeable" than I am. Your insistence that you are only reflects your own personal insecurities.

Of course not, you have made that know from the beginning...doesn't mean I'm not, just means you are very biased about your own opinion and instead of actually addressing my points with valid arguments, you throw strawmen at them. Maybe I'll just start labelling them STRAWMEN and not bother with the rest of the rhetoric.

There were no "queries" there. And you need to stop making these little digs. This isn't a "Miss Congeniality" contest, Stan.
You are right about one thing, however. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Again, you not recognizing them or refusing to, doesn't make your denial true nor acceptable.

Another baseless accusation. Obviously you think "real discussion" means accepting your pov. Not so. "Real discussion" means that each one of us ought to have the opportunity to present his or her own pov.

I think real discussion involves addressing each others points, which you tend NOT to do when you have no answer, and then you resort to deflection or strawmen.

 

[StanJ]

What are you talking about, Stan? I'm not sure what you mean by "cross post"?

As for me losing my argument...do you think that really matters to me? What matters to me is God's truth, Stan.
I'm quite sure that most people are never going to accept God's authority over them. l realize that the notion that one need not concern oneself with any rules is intoxicating. The notion that being "under grace" means that there is no more law...yeah, I can definitely see how someone can get attached to that.
And yet, I feel compelled to keep on sounding the warning. I will continue to hope that maybe I might get through to even one other. I already know I'm not going to reach most folks.
Sin is disobedience to the God Who created you. You are not your own, you are bought with a price. You have a Master...a Shepherd that you are to follow. He loves you so much that He died for your disobedience...and do you repay Him by continuing in that disobedience?

Yes, I am destined to "lose my argument", and I knew that going in.
But, hey...you will not be able to say that nobody told you...

I'm pretty sure you know what I'm referring to Barrd. Why do you feign obtuseness like this? I KNOW you're not.

Of course it matters, otherwise you would NOT argue about it all the time and then start cross posting the same argument in another thread.

Unlike you, I believe I do identify and reach most people, because God's Word is true and brings freedom.
Paul teaches us in Rom 7:1-13 that we are NOT bound to the law, that we are DEAD to the law. Read verse 6,
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

 

[Barrd]

Thanks tip, but I addressed his logic that YOU used. Seems marksman is not the only one with a problem of understanding abstracts, although I didn't think this was.

It was a story from my childhood, Stan That's all it was.

How exactly would you know this? In any event I was talking about YOUR response in bringing up others. You seem to not understand your own posts and what you say in them? That is probably why you're surprised. Do you ever proof read what you write here. Could help to read it back to yourself.
My point is NOT the false teaching out there but the good teaching that supports my POV. You not being able to recognize it, or refusing to is YOUR problem, which wouldn't change even if I personally wrote it all down. Your use of strawmen gets worse and worse everyday.

How would I know that you can find support for almost any theological pov on the net?
I would know that because I've been chatting on the internet since away back in the days of Yahoo chat.
I remember one guy who insisted that the end of the world would be a planet full of dragons who were coming to devour the earth and everything on it.
And yeah...he had a website...
Go figure, eh?

Of course not, you have made that know from the beginning...doesn't mean I'm not, just means you are very biased about your own opinion and instead of actually addressing my points with valid arguments, you throw strawmen at them. Maybe I'll just start labelling them STRAWMEN and not bother with the rest of the rhetoric.

I know I have posted the verses repeatedly. And I think I've addressed the point with the very valid argument that the Ten C's cannot be done away, because they are the basic laws we must have, both in our society, and in our faith.
And I know it sticks in your craw, but I very honestly do not think that you are more knowledgeable in the scriptures than I am. You have not shown me this at all. I like you, Stan, I really do. But I do not see you as my superior in any way, nor do you have any authority over me or anyone else here, any more than I do.

Again, you not recognizing them or refusing to, doesn't make your denial true nor acceptable.

You do realize that arguing over my personality, is a tad immature, right?

I think real discussion involves addressing each others points, which you tend NOT to do when you have no answer, and then you resort to deflection or strawmen.

I think I have addressed your points, Stan.
What it boils down to, is you believe the law has been done away, and you have several verses from Paul that seem to back you up.
I believe that the Ten Commandments are still in force, and I have verses, not only from Paul, but from Jesus Christ Himself that back me up.
Now, we both know that the Bible cannot contradict itself. One of us has to be wrong.
The only authority that matters is the authority of Jesus Christ. I believe I will cling to Him.
And that is the end of any argument for me.