What is this thing called "sin"?

[justaname]

This is not the first time I've heard you mention the 613 mitzvot. Do you know what these are?
Are you aware that several of them have to do with how a Jew is to behave toward a Gentile?

It might be worth it to actually study those mitzvot, if you're going to talk about them. You can find a complete list of them here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm#Gentiles

Just as a quick exercise...here are the first ten of those mitzvot:
G-d

• To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
• Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
• Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
• To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
• Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
• To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
• To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
• To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
• Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
• To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).

Now, I'm no genius...but even I can see how these ten mitzvot are handily expressed in the first three of the Ten Commandments given to these people, written by the finger of God, Himself. Later, Moses went over the details, and these ten mitzvot are the result.

Now, it is true that many of these mitzvot have nothing whatsoever to do with God's Ten Commandments. Some of them, you'd have to be Jewish to keep:
Treatment of Gentiles

• To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61). See Love and Brotherhood.
• Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20) (CCN49).
• Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20) (CCN50).
• Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) (CCN19). See Interfaith Marriages.
• To exact the debt of an alien (Deut. 15:3) (affirmative).
• To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).

Many of them, even the most religious Jew can't keep today, because they have to do with the Temple, which no longer exists. I think my favorite of these is this one:

That a kohein shall not enter the Sanctuary with disheveled hair (Lev. 10:6) (negative). See Kohein.

Do you comb your hair before you walk into church? Better make sure! Of course, if you are not descended from Aaron, your hairdo really doesn't matter. Is your last name Cohen, by any chance?

As you say, we are given God's Spirit. How can we not obey, then? Can the Spirit of God disobey God?
The missing ingredient, as you point out, is love.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you love Him?
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do you love Him?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Do you love Him, Justaname?

Barrd,

You illustrate my point well thank you. We are not under the Law so my hair-do does not matter, I do not need to follow the temple commands, I can eat what I desire...but love is the command I am to follow. This (love) has been taught by Jesus, expanded upon in Acts, and followed and passed down by the Apostles through their epistles.

The 10 commandments (mitzvot) are only part of the 613 commandments (mitzvot). We as Christians are not held to these, rather we are accountable to Christ who redeemed us. Christians were never under Law, we are under Christ.

The fallacy you seem to believe is the 10 commandments are separate from the rest of the Law. I have no idea who taught you such a lie, but it remains just that, a lie. All of the Law was given by Moses to the Israelites, not just a portion. Exodus 19-24...

The 10 commandments were never given to humanity before Moses unlike you falsely believe. The logic used to postulate this imagination is something like, "how could Cain have sinned if he didn't have the 10 commandments?"

The short answer: because Cain was made in the image of God, anything against God's nature is sin.

John both in his gospel and his epistles explains that keeping Jesus' commands prove our love for Him.

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. - 1 John 3:23-24


Yes I do love Him and I know this because I have been given His Spirit. We are not held to the letter of the Law rather to the Spirit of the Law. Keeping rules does not produce love. Love is the Spirit that we obey for God is love. There is obvious overlap between the Law and love as the Spirit behind the Law is love. Yet again we are not bound to Law, we are bound to Him that gave the Law.

Shalom!

 

[heretoeternity]

And how are we bound to Him who gave the law?..by Love..and what demonstrates this love? Following His commandments (the law)...Jesus said "to enter into life keep the Commandments" Matthew 19...and John 14 "if you love me keep my commandments"...

 

[justaname]

And how are we bound to Him who gave the law?..by Love..and what demonstrates this love? Following His commandments (the law)...Jesus said "to enter into life keep the Commandments" Matthew 19...and John 14 "if you love me keep my commandments"...

False... You interpret Law, yet Scripture is quite clear.

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. - 1 John 3:23-24

Also we are bound through our faith...love is the evidence of our faith.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

You illustrate my point well thank you. We are not under the Law so my hair-do does not matter, I do not need to follow the temple commands, I can eat what I desire...but love is the command I am to follow. This (love) has been taught by Jesus, expanded upon in Acts, and followed and passed down by the Apostles through their epistles.

The 10 commandments (mitzvot) are only part of the 613 commandments (mitzvot). We as Christians are not held to these, rather we are accountable to Christ who redeemed us. Christians were never under Law, we are under Christ.

The fallacy you seem to believe is the 10 commandments are separate from the rest of the Law. I have no idea who taught you such a lie, but it remains just that, a lie. All of the Law was given by Moses to the Israelites, not just a portion. Exodus 19-24...

The 10 commandments were never given to humanity before Moses unlike you falsely believe. The logic used postulate this imagination is something like, "how could Cain have sinned if he didn't have the 10 commandments?"

The short answer: because Cain was made in the image of God, anything against God's nature is sin.

John both in his gospel and his epistles explains that keeping Jesus' commands prove our love for Him.

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. - 1 John 3:23-24


Yes I do love Him and I know this because I have been given His Spirit. We are not held to the letter of the Law rather to the Spirit of the Law. Keeping rules does not produce love. Love is the Spirit that we obey for God is love. There is obvious overlap between the Law and love as the Spirit behind the Law is love. Yet again we are not bound to Law, we are bound to Him that gave the Law.

Shalom!

I would have thought that it was fairly obvious that the Ten Commandments are different from the rest of the law.
For one thing, Moses did not write the Ten C's. God wrote them, Himself, with His Own hand. He did not write them in a scroll, but on tablets of stone. They were sacred, as the rest of the law was not. They were placed within the Ark of the Covenant, while the rest of the law was given a secondary place, set off to the side of the Ark.

But let me address your "short answer":

The short answer: because Cain was made in the image of God, anything against God's nature is sin.

The notion that walking around with tousled hair is against God's nature is almost comical.

But what about adultery? Or stealing? Or lying? Or deliberate murder? Are those things against God's nature?
What about honoring parents? Or worshiping God alone? Giving God all the glory, and all the honor...even to honoring the day He sanctified and set aside for Himself?

And didn't Jesus sum up the Ten C's for us, in His Two Great Commandments?

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No matter how you tap dance around it, it is obvious that the Ten Commandments are basic to human society. Would you want to live in a town that had no law against stealing, or against adultery, for instance? Or (God forbid), had no law against murder? Shades of Bily the Kid!
These laws are fundamental...they are just good common sense. We don't really need someone to explain to us that it is wrong to take a human life, do we? We understand why it is wrong to lie, or to steal, don't we? We've known these things since before kindergarten. We don't see them written out in our Bible before Sinai...but we understand that they are as old as mankind himself.

You said:

Yes I do love Him and I know this because I have been given His Spirit. We are not held to the letter of the Law rather to the Spirit of the Law. Keeping rules does not produce love. Love is the Spirit that we obey for God is love. There is obvious overlap between the Law and love as the Spirit behind the Law is love. Yet again we are not bound to Law, we are bound to Him that gave the Law.

You have been given His Spirit...well and good. Again, I ask...can God's Holy Spirit disobey God?
Yes, you are held to the Spirit of the Law.
Keeping rules does not produce love....of course, it doesn't. You've got it exactly backwards. Love produces an obedient heart. Or, as you put it, Love is the Spirit that we obey, for God is love.
God is the Spirit behind the Law...and the Law is His Spirit. It is all about Love.
Yes, we are bound to Him that gave the Law.
And that is why we strive to obey Him.

We are not justified by our obedience. Even if we could keep every one of your 613 mitzvots perfectly, we would still be unprofitable servants...barely worth the dirt God used to form the first man. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. All of our lofty accomplishments are but dung. Our "learning"...master's degrees, phd's, fancy dissertations full of $50 words...it is all just foolishness compared to God's omniscience. All we are, we are because of Him. Everything we have is His.
He is our Good Shepherd, and we are His sheep. We love Him.
And that is why we obey Him.

 

[OzSpen]

That you tried to do, but never addressed the scriptures from Paul I showed you that said the LAW was NOT what Christ brought. Did you actually read Gal 3, or ignore me again as is your habit when PROPERLY instructed.

Stan,

Do you really mean what you stated here? Are you the one who is properly instructing the Barrd? If this is what you mean, I find this to be a prideful response by you.

This kind of comment is unnecessary on a Christian forum where there are diverse opinions. Both you and I can learn from anyone on this forum, including the Barrd. You and I both need challenging and correcting when we promote unbiblical doctrines.

Ecclesiastes 7:7-9 (NIV) states:

7 Extortion turns a wise person into a fool,
and a bribe corrupts the heart.
8 The end of a matter is better than its beginning,
and patience is better than pride.
9 Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit,
for anger resides in the lap of fools.

James also addresses this issue: 'Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you' (James 4:10 ESV).

In your response to The Barrd, even though some of her replies may frustrate you, the biblical instruction is that patience is better than pride and if we humble ourselves before God, he will choose to exalt us in his time.

Exalting our own ability with language such as, 'when PROPERLY instructed' by you, I do not find to be language that is exalting Christ on an evangelical Christian forum.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

 

[Barrd]

Stan,

Do you really mean what you stated here? Are you the one who is properly instructing the Barrd? If this is what you mean, I find this to be a prideful response by you.

This kind of comment is unnecessary on a Christian forum where there are diverse opinions. Both you and I can learn from anyone on this forum, including the Barrd. You and I both need challenging and correcting when we promote unbiblical doctrines.

Ecclesiastes 7:7-9 (NIV) states:


James also addresses this issue: 'Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you' (James 4:10 ESV).

In your response to The Barrd, even though some of her replies may frustrate you, the biblical instruction is that patience is better than pride and if we humble ourselves before God, he will choose to exalt us in his time.

Exalting our own ability with language such as, 'when PROPERLY instructed' by you, I do not find to be language that is exalting Christ on an evangelical Christian forum.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Oz,

Thank you, from my heart.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

You, my precious brother, must be among His favorite sons... :wub:

The Barrd

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

Do you really mean what you stated here? Are you the one who is properly instructing the Barrd? If this is what you mean, I find this to be a prideful response by you.

This kind of comment is unnecessary on a Christian forum where there are diverse opinions. Both you and I can learn from anyone on this forum, including the Barrd. You and I both need challenging and correcting when we promote unbiblical doctrines.

Ecclesiastes 7:7-9 (NIV) states:



James also addresses this issue: 'Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you' (James 4:10 ESV).

In your response to The Barrd, even though some of her replies may frustrate you, the biblical instruction is that patience is better than pride and if we humble ourselves before God, he will choose to exalt us in his time.

Exalting our own ability with language such as, 'when PROPERLY instructed' by you, I do not find to be language that is exalting Christ on an evangelical Christian forum.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Not pride at all Oz, and I'm a tad surprised at your input here in this regard. I've seen you make the same statements to others in the past.
It is definitely something that has more place in a Christian forum than a secular one.

 

[OzSpen]

Not pride at all Oz, and I'm a tad surprised at your input here in this regard. I've seen you make the same statements to others in the past.
It is definitely something that has more place in a Christian forum than a secular one.

Stan,

It is not my style or content to use language that is in any way comparable with what you said in using the language of 'ignore me again as is your habit when PROPERLY instructed'. If I have said anything like that, would you please direct me (with a link) to where I stated it and I'll apologise profusely to that person? Until you show me exactly where I said it, I will not believe I said it. It is not my style of language.

However, are you admitting that you said this as a person who considers that he is 'PROPERLY instructing' the Baard on this forum?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Thank you, from my heart.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

You, my precious brother, must be among His favorite sons... :wub:

The Barrd

The Barrd,

Thanks for your support.

I'm just one of the fellow travellers who is growing in grace in Christ.

The topic of this thread is 'What is this thing called "sin"?'

James 4:6 (NIV) states:

But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Here James is quoting Prov 3:34 (NIV).

God opposes those who exalt themselves in pride but favours those with humility.

I consider that on forums like this, there is the danger that those who think they have more knowledge can try to affirm that extra knowledge. Whichever way we look at it, it still comes down to pride in one's own knowledge, which God opposes.

Blessings sister in Christ from your Aussie mate from Down Under,
Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

Thanks for your support.

I'm just one of the fellow travellers who is growing in grace in Christ.

The topic of this thread is 'What is this thing called "sin"?'

James 4:6 (NIV) states:

Here James is quoting Prov 3:34 (NIV).

God opposes those who exalt themselves in pride but favours those with humility.

I consider that on forums like this, there is the danger that those who think they have more knowledge can try to affirm that extra knowledge. Whichever way we look at it, it still comes down to pride in one's own knowledge, which God opposes.

Blessings sister in Christ from your Aussie mate from Down Under,
Oz

Oz,
Let us continue to learn from one another as we grow in grace.
Let us be as little children, loving one another with full hearts, happy only to be together, content to be led by our Shepherd...remembering always that the one who would be great among us will be the servant of all.

Who are we to think that we might wrap our finite minds around the infinite God?

Blessings back atcha, you ol' roo..
The Barrd

 

[brakelite]

Brakelite:

you are teaching it is our actions that result in righteousness...this is simply a false teaching.

To quote my own post justaname.....Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.
It is through receiving Christ in our lives that He transforms us and changes our minds and hearts into His image...that image is one of love...a love that fulfills the law. If we then look at the law and discover we are not quite measuring up, we do NOT try to love more...that would be attempting to do something by our own effort...what we do is draw closer to Jesus...receive more of Him...more of His Spirit. This we must do every day...dying to self and living to Christ. Contrary to many popular theories, though in heaven and in the books of heaven we are considered righteous, and thus saved....in all practical terms and in our daily experience we are far from measuring up to the glory of God. Thus our salvation was not finally settled at the cross, the blood, as in the OT, needed to be transferred into the sanctuary above where Christ our High Priest ministers on our behalf in order that we may be sanctified...made righteous...recreated in His image. This is a lifelong heart operation. Some Christians agree with the atheists, that Christ is a crutch and they think they can limp into heaven while carrying sin still in the hearts...not so....only a fully fledged bone-fide heart operation will suffice to gain anyone entrance into God's kingdom. We are not sinners because we sin...we sin because we are sinners...that needs to change. It cannot be changed by our own efforts and changing our behaviour does not change who and what we are. God needs to change what we are first, then our actions will reflect what we have become. That justaname is not salvation by works...it is salvation by faith in God's work, not just at Calvary, but in His ongoing ministry as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

 

[justaname]

Barrd,

You have understood some wrong things about the Law.
1. The Law is and always was synonymous with the Old Covenant.
2. Moses wrote the commandments on the stone that was put in the ark not God.
3. Christians are apportioned to the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant or Law.

27 And the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. - Exodus 34:27-28

Instead of falling prey to presupposition and or false teaching perhaps you should re-read the Exodus account and interpret what is says plainly.

Meditate on verse 28 here...don't try to explain it away to save your pet doctrine. Seek God and His guidance.

As far as the messy hair being comical, you must not comprehend God's intent for the command. To Jesus' summary, it was for the 613 mitzvot, not just the ten (notice the phrase Law and prophets)

As to "foundational for society"...if all loved properly we would need no Law. Yet we are fallen creatures subject to sin (unless redeemed). The Law given specifically to Israel was given by the God of the universe! I would think the moral aspect of the Law would apply to all society since He who gave the Law is the foundation and source of all morality.


A society can function, admidditly not well morally, without adhering to any laws. The animal kingdom displays this well enough. Then there are remote lands where law is non-existent, yet man persists. Also we have modern countries where some of the elite within their society are above the laws. Your notion that the Ten Commandments are foundational to society is quite western. Even within a western mindset though a good portion of the ten are not enforced. Most modern societies put no restriction on whom is worshipped. Not even Israel enforces a countrywide observance of the Shabbot. Children are not forced to honor their parents. His name is profaned regularly...need I say more? The Law was foundational for the Hebraic society. Modern society could learn much from this ancient society, yet we as Christians are not called to be Hebrews.


Here your entire argument falls flat...what about pride, homosexuality, vanity, gluttony, favoritism, greed, selfishness...just to name a few. None of these are of the 10, yet all are sin. Do these need to be written in stone or can we agree these are also against God?

 

[justaname]

To quote my own post justaname.....Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.
It is through receiving Christ in our lives that He transforms us and changes our minds and hearts into His image...that image is one of love...a love that fulfills the law. If we then look at the law and discover we are not quite measuring up, we do NOT try to love more...that would be attempting to do something by our own effort...what we do is draw closer to Jesus...receive more of Him...more of His Spirit. This we must do every day...dying to self and living to Christ. Contrary to many popular theories, though in heaven and in the books of heaven we are considered righteous, and thus saved....in all practical terms and in our daily experience we are far from measuring up to the glory of God. Thus our salvation was not finally settled at the cross, the blood, as in the OT, needed to be transferred into the sanctuary above where Christ our High Priest ministers on our behalf in order that we may be sanctified...made righteous...recreated in His image. This is a lifelong heart operation. Some Christians agree with the atheists, that Christ is a crutch and they think they can limp into heaven while carrying sin still in the hearts...not so....only a fully fledged bone-fide heart operation will suffice to gain anyone entrance into God's kingdom. We are not sinners because we sin...we sin because we are sinners...that needs to change. It cannot be changed by our own efforts and changing our behaviour does not change who and what we are. God needs to change what we are first, then our actions will reflect what we have become. That justaname is not salvation by works...it is salvation by faith in God's work, not just at Calvary, but in His ongoing ministry as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

The subtly to your post still inflects the same meaning. We are not righteous through our love, rather through our faith.

I agree God enables us to love though His Spirit, yet this is not the result of righteousness. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ is flawless. True he who practices righteousness is righteous, yet only One is without fault in their righteousness.

It is not a heart operation that gains entrance into the Kingdom, it is faith. Christ died for the sin of the world (past, present, and future). Christ resurrected for the justification of those who believe.

Your state our salvation was not finalized at the cross? It is at the cross that God's wrath was satisfied and the atonement for sin was accomplished. From here Christ was resurrected. It is the combination of the two that must be believed to receive God's imputed righteousness.

Salvation is not faith plus works. Works are the outward evidence of the faith.

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14

This is not stating love keeps the Law, rather that the Law fits within the framework of love.

 

[brakelite]

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

What is/was the law of sin and death, and what made me free from it, and how did that work? The law of sin and death is not the Ten Commandments. Paul says that particular law, because it points out sin, is holy, just, and good. Elsewhere Paul said the law is spiritual...no the law of sin and death is not God's holy law of love.
So when contemplating Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus....Am I free from condemnation because the law is taken out of the way, or because I am forgiven? That word 'therefore' has a distinct meaning...it means that what is to follow is entirely the result of what has gone before. So what came before Romans 8 and the freedom of condemnation spoken of there? Romans 7. What does Romans 7 say took place that resulted in our freedom from condemnation? It was the death of the woman's husband that freed the woman from any condemnation regarding her new marriage partner correct? Was the aw taken away? Not at all! The law would still apply to the new husband! So how does that relate to the Christian? Who, or what has died that frees us from condemnation? The law? NO!! It is Christ who died...and we died in Him. That is, our old man...the old carnal fleshly nature is considered dead because we are included in Christ's sacrifice. But the law still stands! We are not free fro our obligation to obey the law, we are free from the condemnation of of sin that the law testifies of. And according to Romans 7, we are therefore remarried , and our new husband is Christ! So long as we remain faithful to Him, abide in Him, we are free from all condemnation. To continue the rest of the first verse in Romans 8....1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


When my children were small, I would ask them to do some chores. Sometimes, thankfully not often, I would come home and find some of the chores not done or completed. I would remind them of what I asked, and they realised they were all of a sudden “under the law”, they stood condemned. However, being the loving dad I would forgive them, and now, they were under grace. They were very happy about that. But the chores still remained undone, and my requirements that they be completed still stood. The difference though is that now I was home and I could help them. Even more grace! So should my children have continued to disobey my commands in order to grace abound? Or do you think that they should not only have done them in the first place, but most certainly after having being forgiven, done them later?
Likewise, do you not think that after having being forgiven our sins, ought we not be even more eager to obey God’s commandments now that we are under grace, and not under condemnation of the law? For is it not still God’s will that we refrain from murder, theft, adultery, covetousness, and lying? Is it still not God’s will that we don’t worship other gods, that we place Him as our priority in life, that we should not remove the holiness from His name, nor the holiness from His day? And is it not also true that God is more than willing to give us abundantly of His Spirit that we may walk always in His ways?
My way of thinking is that as we focus wholly on Christ, we become like Him. The more time we spend with Him, the more like Him we become. Yes? After all, the NT repeats that Christ is our new husband yes? So what is the best way to measure how we are progressing in our relationship with Him? Is not the law of God a mirror to our soul? Is it not in place to inform us of our shortcomings, our frailties, and our weaknesses? Does it not reveal those areas where we need to repent and re-surrender our whole lives to our Creator God that He may sanctify and cleanse us from that sin? Even Paul extolled the law as being good, holy and honourable when it pointed out his covetousness. He was thankful for that because he wanted to live a life of true holiness before His God. Ought not we?
I agree that love is the ultimate end for those who grow to be Christlike. Jesus said that upon the two great commandments, loving God and our neighbour, hang all the law and the prophets. In other words, the law and the prophets are a detailed reflection of the true meaning of love. So when Jesus said we are to love one another, He wasn’t doing away with the law, He was informing us how to keep the law. Through love.

God calls us to live righteous and holy lives. We cannot do so in our own strength, but what is impossible for man, is possible for God. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Thus the righteousness in which we live is not our own, but is that righteousness which Jesus said we are to hunger and thirst for. A righteousness that is not an abstract theory, but a righteousness that is reflected in a sanctified life. Wholly conformable to God’s commandments. Grace gives us more than just eternal rewards. It also gives us power to become children of God. A gospel without the power is only half the gospel.
Oh, and Paul tells us that if we are children, we are servants…..servants of righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[brakelite]

The subtly to your post still inflects the same meaning. We are not righteous through our love, rather through our faith.

I agree God enables us to love though His Spirit, yet this is not the result of righteousness. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ is flawless. True he who practices righteousness is righteous, yet only One is without fault in their righteousness.

It is not a heart operation that gains entrance into the Kingdom, it is faith. Christ died for the sin of the world (past, present, and future). Christ resurrected for the justification of those who believe.

Your state our salvation was not finalized at the cross? It is at the cross that God's wrath was satisfied and the atonement for sin was accomplished.

Salvation is not faith plus works. Works are the outward evidence of the faith.

The OT sanctuary service is a type of the full gospel. Calvary did not fulfill the entire service...only that part which took place outside the sanctuary at the altar. To claim that Calvary and the death of Jesus was all there was that was necessary for our salvation is to deny His entire ministry in heaven as High Priest. If the High Priest had stopped at the altar of sacrifice and gone home instead of ministering the blood of the sacrifice before the Most Holy Place, Israel would have been bereft of their hope. Paul says we are not saved by His death, but by His life...His ongoing intercession for us before the Father is part of that life which saves us. Calvary gave us the licence we needed for eternity...the sanctifying process gives us our fitness for eternity.

As to our love...love is evidence of our faith, as works are the evidence of our love. We are judged by our works...we are judged by the evidence. Like any court case, the evidence is what the judgement is based on. Faith in God's power and in His word comes first...His transforming power through His Spirit comes next, followed by the evidence, our love and works. Our obedience to God's commandments are a part of those works.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Before we are converted, we are carnal. Unable to to please God, sinners, disobedient to the law. But now, the converted Chrstian is not in the flesh, not carnal, but spiritual, if the Spirit of God does indeed dwell in him/her. So surely, f the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, the Spiritual mind is?

 

[justaname]

The OT sanctuary service is a type of the full gospel. Calvary did not fulfill the entire service...only that part which took place outside the sanctuary at the altar. To claim that Calvary and the death of Jesus was all there was that was necessary for our salvation is to deny His entire ministry in heaven as High Priest. If the High Priest had stopped at the altar of sacrifice and gone home instead of ministering the blood of the sacrifice before the Most Holy Place, Israel would have been bereft of their hope. Paul says we are not saved by His death, but by His life...His ongoing intercession for us before the Father is part of that life which saves us. Calvary gave us the licence we needed for eternity...the sanctifying process gives us our fitness for eternity.

As to our love...love is evidence of our faith, as works are the evidence of our love. We are judged by our works...we are judged by the evidence. Like any court case, the evidence is what the judgement is based on. Faith in God's power and in His word comes first...His transforming power through His Spirit comes next, followed by the evidence, our love and works. Our obedience to God's commandments are a part of those works.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Before we are converted, we are carnal. Unable to to please God, sinners, disobedient to the law. But now, the converted Chrstian is not in the flesh, not carnal, but spiritual, if the Spirit of God does indeed dwell in him/her. So surely, f the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, the Spiritual mind is?

Your response was quicker than my full response...please re-read this section.

Your state our salvation was not finalized at the cross? It is at the cross that God's wrath was satisfied and the atonement for sin was accomplished. From here Christ was resurrected. It is the combination of the two that must be believed to receive God's imputed righteousness.

You have yet to provide evidence that the 10 commandments are separate from the other 603. If we are held to the Law, then it is the entire Law we are held to. To be guilty of one part of the Law is to be guilty of it all.

Now in the above you are teaching we are judged by our works or our compliance to God's commandments. Where we differ is to what those commandments are. I find them in John's 1st epistle. You look to the covenant handed down through Moses.

The judgement you speak of is in regard to reward. Salvation is apportioned through faith, not faith plus works. We do not add our righteousness to Christ's flawless righteousness. Again you are teaching a works based salvation if you think salvation hinges on your performance of works.

 

[Barrd]

Your response was quicker than my full response...please re-read this section.

Your state our salvation was not finalized at the cross? It is at the cross that God's wrath was satisfied and the atonement for sin was accomplished. From here Christ was resurrected. It is the combination of the two that must be believed to receive God's imputed righteousness.

You have yet to provide evidence that the 10 commandments are separate from the other 603. If we are held to the Law, then it is the entire Law we are held to. To be guilty of one part of the Law is to be guilty of it all.

Now in the above you are teaching we are judged by our works or our compliance to God's commandments. Where we differ is to what those commandments are. I find them in John's epistle. You look to the covenant handed down through Moses.

The judgement you speak of is in regard to reward. Salvation is apportioned through faith, not faith plus works. We do not add our righteousness to Christ's flawless righteousness. Again you are teaching a works based salvation if you think salvation hinges on your performance of works.

Why didn't God write all 613 mitzvot on those tablets of stone, d'ya think?
Why weren't all 613 placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant?

Do you suppose it might be that God is more concerned about such things as murder or theft or adultery, then He is about tousled hair?

Hmmmm....

 

[brakelite]

Justaname. I do agree that salvation is not faith plus works. If I have suggested otherwise or my poor wording has implied that, my apologies. But as James says, works are essential, for they are the evidence of the faith. They are the evidence that our faith is real.That the God we are believing in is the true God.
If someone is not keeping God's commandments, despite their clams to being saved and in a relationship with Jesus, the evidence says otherwise. And they will be judged on that evidence, not on their profession of faith.
Revelation 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The works spoken of above are more than just those for which we receive a reward. Jesus is warning his church here of the danger of losing their place in glory. He is pleading with His people to repent, to reconnect with Him by invitation, and to ensure their works reflect a saving faith. Righteousness justaname is more than what is imputed. It is also imparted.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[justaname]

Why didn't God write all 613 mitzvot on those tablets of stone, d'ya think?
Why weren't all 613 placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant?

Do you suppose it might be that God is more concerned about such things as murder or theft or adultery, then He is about tousled hair?

Hmmmm....

Because poor Moses would have been whittling away for more than 40 days and nights.

Because the ark would have been way too heavy with all that stone in it.

Lol!

The 10 represent the covenant, not that it is a summary. Jesus gave us the sum of the Law in the Shemah and the golden rule.

So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. - Exodus 34:28

 

[StanJ]

Because the ark would have been way too heavy with all that stone in it.

and God didn't want Moses to smash them again.