What is this thing called "sin"?

[Barrd]

I'm pretty sure you know what I'm referring to Barrd. Why do you feign obtuseness like this? I KNOW you're not.

I know that, with most folks at least, I am going to lose the argument. That's a given.
The idea that there is no more law is too deeply ingrained, and too attractive, and that's a fact.
But what Christian would honestly say that we may worship other Gods, for a starter? Common sense would tell you, I should think, that worshiping other Gods would be unacceptable...but if there is no law against it, then how is it a sin?
Don't you see that the minute you say "there is no law", you also say "there is no sin"?
Or is that concept just too simple for people to understand?

Of course it matters, otherwise you would NOT argue about it all the time and then start cross posting the same argument in another thread.

In the first place, the "What Is Sin" thread, which I started, is all about whether the Law is still in force, or not.
The question is, if there is no law, how can we sin? And if we can't sin, then why do we need Grace?
So far, no one has actually addressed that.

Unlike you, I believe I do identify and reach most people, because God's Word is true and brings freedom.
Paul teaches us in Rom 7:1-13 that we are NOT bound to the law, that we are DEAD to the law. Read verse 6,
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

Of course, you think that, because most people think as you do, that the law has been done away.

How ironic that you, who have accused me of "skipping verse" have skipped over so much of Romans 7!
Yes, we are "dead" to the letter of the law...but alive in the Spirit.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Are you paying attention? Sin worked death in you, and, by the commandment, you became exceeding sinful.
The commandment is holy, and just, and good...but you are not.
The law is spiritual, but you, like Paul, and me, and everyone else, are carnal. We are sold under sin.
That is why we need to be redeemed!

But our redemption is the thing Satan does not want!
Now, if I were that old liar, and I wanted to keep men from salvation...yeah, tell 'em that there is no more law. It'd be easy, peasy, lemon squeezy...they like their sins.
All I have to do is to convince them that there is no more law...and therefore, no more penalty.
WHEEEEE....par-tay time! Divorce, pre-marital sex, abortion, homosexuality...these are just the tip of the iceberg.

And because iniquity abounds, the love of many continues to grow cold.

 

[StanJ]

It was a story from my childhood, Stan That's all it was.

Well it didn't come across as that, you were TRYING to make it personal towards ME, but failed.
If it really had nothing to do with my post them why bring it up?

How would I know that you can find support for almost any theological pov on the net?
I would know that because I've been chatting on the internet since away back in the days of Yahoo chat.
I remember one guy who insisted that the end of the world would be a planet full of dragons who were coming to devour the earth and everything on it.
And yeah...he had a website...
Go figure, eh?

Not what I was addressing Barrd. Please pay attention as I can't do it for both of us....it's hard enough to follow my own trains of thought.

I know I have posted the verses repeatedly. And I think I've addressed the point with the very valid argument that the Ten C's cannot be done away, because they are the basic laws we must have, both in our society, and in our faith.
And I know it sticks in your craw, but I very honestly do not think that you are more knowledgeable in the scriptures than I am. You have not shown me this at all. I like you, Stan, I really do. But I do not see you as my superior in any way, nor do you have any authority over me or anyone else here, any more than I do.

You're just denying Barrd and I HAVE posted scripture that states that, so why would you not deal with those scriptures instead of just saying they make no common sense?

You do realize that arguing over my personality, is a tad immature, right?

Not arguing...just identifying your traits that frustrate me. Not ANY different than you do kiddo.

I think I have addressed your points, Stan.
What it boils down to, is you believe the law has been done away, and you have several verses from Paul that seem to back you up.
I believe that the Ten Commandments are still in force, and I have verses, not only from Paul, but from Jesus Christ Himself that back me up.
Now, we both know that the Bible cannot contradict itself. One of us has to be wrong.
The only authority that matters is the authority of Jesus Christ. I believe I will cling to Him.
And that is the end of any argument for me.

My points are scripture, which you have NOT addressed other than to say I'm not using common sense, which BTW, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Barrd]

Well it didn't come across as that, you were TRYING to make it personal towards ME, but failed.
If it really had nothing to do with my post them why bring it up?

You do remind me of him, Stan. The same stubborn insistence that you are right, and just sure that you are "more knowledgeable" than others, even when you are presented with plain evidence to the contrary.

Not what I was addressing Barrd. Please pay attention as I can't do it for both of us....it's hard enough to follow my own trains of thought.

LOL! :lol:
Read that through to yourself a time or two, Stan!
If you can't follow your own train of thought, how in the world do you expect anyone else to do so?!

You're just denying Barrd and I HAVE posted scripture that states that, so why would you not deal with those scriptures instead of just saying they make no common sense?

I have answered your scripture with scripture of my own.
I have shown where Jesus re-stated every single one of the Ten Commandments.
I have shown that, not only was Paul not teaching that the law had been abolished, he kept the law himself and taught others to do so as well.
I have shown that there was and is a definite difference between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses.
I have done this so often that I finally decided to save these verse to a document on my computer, rather than look them up over and over again.

Not arguing...just identifying your traits that frustrate me. Not ANY different than you do kiddo.

You mean like me comparing you to the stubborn but lovable old coot that was my Grandda'?
You frustrate me, old man, that is true.
You also amuse me.

My points are scripture, which you have NOT addressed other than to say I'm not using common sense, which BTW, is in the eye of the beholder.

As the beholder, it is my opinion that you are not using common sense.
You are simply refusing to see the truth that is being shown to you.

 

[StanJ]

You do remind me of him, Stan. The same stubborn insistence that you are right, and just sure that you are "more knowledgeable" than others, even when you are presented with plain evidence to the contrary.

You keep stating this Barrd, but never back it up, so I can only assume you just like avoiding the truth.

Read that through to yourself a time or two, Stan!
If you can't follow your own train of thought, how in the world do you expect anyone else to do so?!

You're the one wanting clarification Barrd. I don't lack in being clear and succinct, so you must be seeing yourself here?

I have answered your scripture with scripture of my own.

You have defected FROM addressing scriptures I quote by quoting others OUT of context. NOT the same thing and typical of those that CAN'T.

I have shown where Jesus re-stated every single one of the Ten Commandments.

That means nothing, as that was the LAW at the time, and even then He reframed some to show what they actually entailed.

I have shown that, not only was Paul not teaching that the law had been abolished, he kept the law himself and taught others to do so as well.

That you tried to do, but never addressed the scriptures from Paul I showed you that said the LAW was NOT what Christ brought. Did you actually read Gal 3, or ignore me again as is your habit when PROPERLY instructed.

I have shown that there was and is a definite difference between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses.

You tried, unsuccessfully, and ignored my response. The ten commandments were the BASIS, foundation of the Mosaic Law. They did NOT exist before despite your denials.

I have done this so often that I finally decided to save these verse to a document on my computer, rather than look them up over and over again.

Then you should have no problem using them properly, WITHIN context?

You mean like me comparing you to the stubborn but lovable old coot that was my Grandda'?
You frustrate me, old man, that is true.
You also amuse me.

Nope, but not surprising you won't see that.

As the beholder, it is my opinion that you are not using common sense.
You are simply refusing to see the truth that is being shown to you.

Yes I get that, and as you yourself so often say, common sense is NOT what the Bible is all about...it's about accepting what it DOES say. So were you being honest then or not?

 

[heretoeternity]

The inescapable fact for non believers in God's law is...sin is still defined in the Bible as transgression of God's law (1st John)...and as Apostle James says..you break one of God's commandments you break them all...

 

[Barrd]

You keep stating this Barrd, but never back it up, so I can only assume you just like avoiding the truth.

Are you trying to tell me that you are not "always right"? Can you think of a time when you have accepted correction?

You're the one wanting clarification Barrd. I don't lack in being clear and succinct, so you must be seeing yourself here?

Hey, you're the one who said you couldn't follow your own train of thought.

You have defected FROM addressing scriptures I quote by quoting others OUT of context. NOT the same thing and typical of those that CAN'T.

In other words, I posted scripture that did not agree with what you were trying to prove.

That means nothing, as that was the LAW at the time, and even then He reframed some to show what they actually entailed.

You'd think, if He were going to abolish the law, He would have said so. Instead, He very plainly said that He had not come to destroy the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That you tried to do, but never addressed the scriptures from Paul I showed you that said the LAW was NOT what Christ brought. Did you actually read Gal 3, or ignore me again as is your habit when PROPERLY instructed.

You need to get over this notion you have that you are somehow called to PROPERLY instruct me. For one thing, I am three years your senior...I'm not some wet-behind-the-ears kid that can't tell Chronicles from Corinthians, fapeetsake. You are not my superior in any sense of the word, you are not "more knowledgeable" than I am...in my opinion, for what little it may be worth, you are rather unsophisticated and incredibly gullible, which is pretty much what I think of anyone who has bought the whole "slain in the spirit" nonsense. Not trying to derail the thread, just pointing out where you kinda lost me as a potential "pupil". You, Sir, are unable to PROPERLY instruct me...if anything, you should be coming to me for PROPER instruction. But we both know you are far too proud for that...

You tried, unsuccessfully, and ignored my response. The ten commandments were the BASIS, foundation of the Mosaic Law. They did NOT exist before despite your denials.

I think I have said, more than once, that the Ten C's are the BASIS for all human law. I believe that they were in force from the time Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden. Else, how could Cain have been guilty of murder, unless God had said "Thou shalt not kill"? Obviously, he knew he had done something wrong, or he wouldn't have tried to hide himself.

Then you should have no problem using them properly, WITHIN context?

You mean I should use them in "proper, Stan-approved style"? Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

Nope, but not surprising you won't see that.

You frustrate me, too, old man.

Yes I get that, and as you yourself so often say, common sense is NOT what the Bible is all about...it's about accepting what it DOES say. So were you being honest then or not?

I'm afraid I do not know what you are talking about here?

 

[StanJ]

Are you trying to tell me that you are not "always right"? Can you think of a time when you have accepted correction?

Not at all, but then again you do seem to have a problem understanding what I write? Is that deliberate?

Hey, you're the one who said you couldn't follow your own train of thought.

No, I said I'm not going backwards to find the train of thought. You deal in minutia and when you're called on it you resort to saying WHERE?

In other words, I posted scripture that did not agree with what you were trying to prove.

Nope, you deflected and did NOT address what I gave you. Remember the Bible does NOT contradict itself, so doing what you do means you think what I quoted was wrong, even though it IS the Bible. Not dealing with it means you can't or won't.

You'd think, if He were going to abolish the law, He would have said so. Instead, He very plainly said that He had not come to destroy the law.

There you go using your own reasoning again. The law was NOT destroyed, it was fulfilled and became obsolete, then disappeared. You don't seem to understand that very basic illustration from Luke in Hebrews 8:13?

You need to get over this notion you have that you are somehow called to PROPERLY instruct me. For one thing, I am three years your senior...I'm not some wet-behind-the-ears kid that can't tell Chronicles from Corinthians, fapeetsake. You are not my superior in any sense of the word, you are not "more knowledgeable" than I am...in my opinion, for what little it may be worth, you are rather unsophisticated and incredibly gullible, which is pretty much what I think of anyone who has bought the whole "slain in the spirit" nonsense. Not trying to derail the thread, just pointing out where you kinda lost me as a potential "pupil". You, Sir, are unable to PROPERLY instruct me...if anything, you should be coming to me for PROPER instruction. But we both know you are far too proud for that...

2 Tim 3:16-17....try reading it carefully. While you're at it, check out 2 Tim 2 to see WHY I am so committed to God's word.

I think I have said, more than once, that the Ten C's are the BASIS for all human law. I believe that they were in force from the time Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden. Else, how could Cain have been guilty of murder, unless God had said "Thou shalt not kill"? Obviously, he knew he had done something wrong, or he wouldn't have tried to hide himself.

Well you obviously will believe what you want, but that belief is NOT upheld in scripture, and BTW, take a look at the Mesopotamian Law around 2850 BC, LONG before the Mosaic Laws.

You mean I should use them in "proper, Stan-approved style"? Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

No, hermeneutically approved, which sadly you refuse to accept. Your pride definitely gets in the way.

I'm afraid I do not know what you are talking about here?

How convenient, and unbelievable.

 

[Barrd]

Not at all, but then again you do seem to have a problem understanding what I write? Is that deliberate?

Oh, I think I understand you well enough. I just do not agree with you.

No, I said I'm not going backwards to find the train of thought. You deal in minutia and when you're called on it you resort to saying WHERE?

I'm not trying to keep track of what the heck you're talking about...

Nope, you deflected and did NOT address what I gave you. Remember the Bible does NOT contradict itself, so doing what you do means you think what I quoted was wrong, even though it IS the Bible. Not dealing with it means you can't or won't.

In other words, I posted scripture that did not agree with you. I thought we had established that?

There you go using your own reasoning again. The law was NOT destroyed, it was fulfilled and became obsolete, then disappeared. You don't seem to understand that very basic illustration from Luke in Hebrews 8:13?

First of all, it is the Old Covenant that became obsolete and then disappeared. That does not necessarily mean that the Ten C's disappeared along with it.
Second, what does Luke have to do with it?

2 Tim 3:16-17....try reading it carefully. While you're at it, check out 2 Tim 2 to see WHY I am so committed to God's word.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You are aware that when Paul wrote these words, the NT did not exist yet? In fact, the Bible as we know it did not exist yet.

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do...

Well you obviously will believe what you want, but that belief is NOT upheld in scripture, and BTW, take a look at the Mesopotamian Law around 2850 BC, LONG before the Mosaic Laws.

"2350 BC Mesopotamian kings lay down the first recorded law, known as the Urukagina’s Code. (The code has never been discovered but it is mentioned in other documents.)"
from http://www.didyouknow.cd/history/bc.htm

And haven't I been saying that the Ten C's have always existed? That they are basic to all human law? Do you think I am surprised to find a code of laws that predates Moses? :lol: ^_^ That's me having a good laugh...

No, hermeneutically approved, which sadly you refuse to accept. Your pride definitely gets in the way.

That's an awfully high horse you're riding, there, Stan. You might want to be careful...it could hurt when he throws you...

How convenient, and unbelievable.

Stan, I've taken an awful lot from you, because I do like you...and, as I've said, you remind me of my own departed grand da'...
But even I eventually get to the end of my patience. I'm asking you, please...as politely as I know how, please, Stan, stop with these nasty little digs. They are getting quite tiresome.
I should tell you, I'm making screen shots of these posts, and if you don't stop, I will be reporting you. Enough is enough. No more personal attacks, okay?

 

[brakelite]

No-one should think that they can separate the law from the gospel.On many occasions the Pharisees in their hypocrisy were roundly and rightly rebuked by Jesus for thinking that by keeping the law they would be saved; on one such occasion Jesus said:

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

So obedience is good, and ought always to be done, but there are more important aspects of life in Christ, as Jesus put it ‘weightier matters of the law’, which have a greater priority. Love, mercy, faith, justice. That Jesus said they are a part of the law is significant. There are those who claim the law was nailed to the cross: they have to reconcile the fact that love, justice, and mercy, that is the gospel,is part and parcel of that very law which they claim is of no further relevance to the Christian. How can ‘thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart etc’ be no longer of any significance to the Christian life? Is this not the very essence of the law? That upon love for God as paramount and impartial love for neighbour hang all the law and prophets? How then can the law and the gospel be separated? They cannot. They intertwine and overlay each other intimately, having different purposes yet they run parallel to one another. And please, enough of this nonsense that claims that the law was done away with but reinstituted by the church through the writings of Paul. Far out, God didn’t need Moses to establish law, nor did He need Paul. God’s law was established in the heavens, since eternity past and into eternity future. His law is His nature, His character. His righteousness. To do away with His law is to do away with God Himself.
It is as we take a hold of Christ and cleave to Him in faith and love, that His law ceases its claims upon us because of two things. First and foremost, we are dead to the law, (note well, it is us that are dead, not the law) in Christ. This means that God the Father considers us as having died with His Son, Jesus. Because Jesus died as an innocent man, God can include in Him the guilt of humanity, that includes you and me. God considers the debt paid. What claims the law has upon us as far as guilt is concerned is eternally dealt with.
Secondly, we are gifted with His righteousness. Not just accounted righteous like a book-keeping entry, but changed, sanctified, made righteous each day and made a new creature that lives, breathes, loves, obeys, cherishes the good and despises the evil. Sin no longer has an attraction to us. Grieving the Holy Spirit that abides in us becomes a detestable consideration. And as we hunger and thirst after righteousness we come to the point when we would rather die than tell a lie. We would rather burn than deny our love for our Maker. We would rather be tortured than be found to be a thief, or an adulterer. We would rather suffer ridicule, abuse, and slander than to compromise truth, reduce holiness to a human standard, or behave in such a way that brings disrepute upon He who saved us.
What a wonderful God who through the power of His word and the work of His Spirit can fulfill in us His promises as laid out in His law. But it takes faith. You must believe that God has the power, and the willingness to accomplish this. You must also decide if you want this. Jesus said that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled. Do you believe His words, His promises? Below are a set of promises, that as you surrender your life to Him, fully trusting in Him and allow Him to work in you His righteousness and holiness, and that if you believe that what He promises will assuredly come to pass, these will become real for you in this life.
You shall love the Lord thy God with all the heart, with all the soul, and with all thy strength.
You shall worship the Lord thy God and you will only serve Him.
You shall not have any other god before Him, nor shall you make any graven image.
You shall never take the name of the Lord in vain.
You shall remember to keep holy His Sabbath day.
And you shall love thy neighbour as thyself.
You shall not dishonour your parents.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not lie.
You shall not covet

Romans 8:3,4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Barrd]

No-one should think that they can separate the law from the gospel.On many occasions the Pharisees in their hypocrisy were roundly and rightly rebuked by Jesus for thinking that by keeping the law they would be saved; on one such occasion Jesus said:

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

So obedience is good, and ought always to be done, but there are more important aspects of life in Christ, as Jesus put it ‘weightier matters of the law’, which have a greater priority. Love, mercy, faith, justice. That Jesus said they are a part of the law is significant. There are those who claim the law was nailed to the cross: they have to reconcile the fact that love, justice, and mercy, that is the gospel,is part and parcel of that very law which they claim is of no further relevance to the Christian. How can ‘thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart etc’ be no longer of any significance to the Christian life? Is this not the very essence of the law? That upon love for God as paramount and impartial love for neighbour hang all the law and prophets? How then can the law and the gospel be separated? They cannot. They intertwine and overlay each other intimately, having different purposes yet they run parallel to one another. And please, enough of this nonsense that claims that the law was done away with but reinstituted by the church through the writings of Paul. Far out, God didn’t need Moses to establish law, nor did He need Paul. God’s law was established in the heavens, since eternity past and into eternity future. His law is His nature, His character. His righteousness. To do away with His law is to do away with God Himself.
It is as we take a hold of Christ and cleave to Him in faith and love, that His law ceases its claims upon us because of two things. First and foremost, we are dead to the law, (note well, it is us that are dead, not the law) in Christ. This means that God the Father considers us as having died with His Son, Jesus. Because Jesus died as an innocent man, God can include in Him the guilt of humanity, that includes you and me. God considers the debt paid. What claims the law has upon us as far as guilt is concerned is eternally dealt with.
Secondly, we are gifted with His righteousness. Not just accounted righteous like a book-keeping entry, but changed, sanctified, made righteous each day and made a new creature that lives, breathes, loves, obeys, cherishes the good and despises the evil. Sin no longer has an attraction to us. Grieving the Holy Spirit that abides in us becomes a detestable consideration. And as we hunger and thirst after righteousness we come to the point when we would rather die than tell a lie. We would rather burn than deny our love for our Maker. We would rather be tortured than be found to be a thief, or an adulterer. We would rather suffer ridicule, abuse, and slander than to compromise truth, reduce holiness to a human standard, or behave in such a way that brings disrepute upon He who saved us.
What a wonderful God who through the power of His word and the work of His Spirit can fulfill in us His promises as laid out in His law. But it takes faith. You must believe that God has the power, and the willingness to accomplish this. You must also decide if you want this. Jesus said that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled. Do you believe His words, His promises? Below are a set of promises, that as you surrender your life to Him, fully trusting in Him and allow Him to work in you His righteousness and holiness, and that if you believe that what He promises will assuredly come to pass, these will become real for you in this life.
You shall love the Lord thy God with all the heart, with all the soul, and with all thy strength.
You shall worship the Lord thy God and you will only serve Him.
You shall not have any other god before Him, nor shall you make any graven image.
You shall never take the name of the Lord in vain.
You shall remember to keep holy His Sabbath day.
And you shall love thy neighbour as thyself.
You shall not dishonour your parents.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not lie.
You shall not covet

Romans 8:3,4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Amen.

 

[StanJ]

Oh, I think I understand you well enough. I just do not agree with you.

Then simply say so and move on. Arguing with me won't engender anything but a response. Using ad hominems will result in reciprocal responses.

I'm not trying to keep track of what the heck you're talking about...

Then don't expect me to clarify many posts AFTER I've made my point.

In other words, I posted scripture that did not agree with you. I thought we had established that?

No, I said what I meant. STOP equivocating by paraphrasing what I say.

First of all, it is the Old Covenant that became obsolete and then disappeared. That does not necessarily mean that the Ten C's disappeared along with it.

Yes it does, as the 10 commandments were the BASIS for the OC.

Second, what does Luke have to do with it?

He WROTE the words. Hello?

You are aware that when Paul wrote these words, the NT did not exist yet? In fact, the Bible as we know it did not exist yet.

I realize that either you don't understand what he meant, or you don't accept the NT as scripture, or you don't know what scripture is? Which is it?

"2350 BC Mesopotamian kings lay down the first recorded law, known as the Urukagina’s Code. (The code has never been discovered but it is mentioned in other documents.)"
from http://www.didyouknow.cd/history/bc.htm

Yes you have, but as this law existed far before they did, I guess you are wrong. Not sure why you would yuk it up to that fact.

That's an awfully high horse you're riding, there, Stan. You might want to be careful...it could hurt when he throws you...

High man requires a high horse.

Stan, I've taken an awful lot from you, because I do like you...and, as I've said, you remind me of my own departed grand da'...
But even I eventually get to the end of my patience. I'm asking you, please...as politely as I know how, please, Stan, stop with these nasty little digs. They are getting quite tiresome.
I should tell you, I'm making screen shots of these posts, and if you don't stop, I will be reporting you. Enough is enough. No more personal attacks, okay?

Well then stop making them and I'll stop reciprocating, unless you're a masochist? You and a few others seem to think moderators don't do their job unless you point it out to them. Guess I'm not the only one you think little of?

 

[StanJ]

No-one should think that they can separate the law from the gospel. On many occasions the Pharisees in their hypocrisy were roundly and rightly rebuked by Jesus for thinking that by keeping the law they would be saved; on one such occasion Jesus said:

Funny that Paul, Peter and Luke did? You think your perspective is more inspired or more accurate than theirs?

 

[Barrd]

Then simply say so and move on. Arguing with me won't engender anything but a response. Using ad hominems will result in reciprocal responses.

I have said so.

Then don't expect me to clarify many posts AFTER I've made my point.

I quit expecting you to clarify your posts some time ago, Stan.

No, I said what I meant. STOP equivocating by paraphrasing what I say.

The verses I posted speak for themselves.

Yes it does, as the 10 commandments were the BASIS for the OC.

They are the basis for all law.

He WROTE the words. Hello?

Last I knew, no one was sure exactly who wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews...but Paul seemed the most likely suspect. I've also read where it has been attributed to Barnabus, or possibly even Paul's son in the faith, Timothy. One source lists Apollos as the possible author. Then there is the idea that Hebrews might be a sermon given by Paul and transcribed by Luke...but I've never heard or read that Luke wrote it himself. Not impossible, I suppose.
You, however, seem quite sure that it was, indeed, Luke. Do you have a source, or is this your own theory?

I realize that either you don't understand what he meant, or you don't accept the NT as scripture, or you don't know what scripture is? Which is it?

What I actually said is that when Paul (or whoever) wrote the words "All scripture is given..." the Bible as we know it did not exist. Therefore the writer was not referring to the Bible. My own belief is that he was referring to the Torah, although he may have had some of what we know as the NT in mind as well. It's hard to tell, especially since scholars do not seem to be able to agree on when a particular book was written, or, in many cases, who actually wrote it. Now, me, I'm naive enough and gullible enough to believe that if it says "Gospel of John", for instance, then John wrote it. I'm pretty sure I'm right in this...however, I'm pretty sure you know that there are a great many scholars out there who would disagree with me...

Yes you have, but as this law existed far before they did, I guess you are wrong. Not sure why you would yuk it up to that fact.

You honestly don't get it, do you? I'm saying that I believe that the Ten C's existed from the beginning. They are the bedrock upon which all other codes of law are built. I am saying that this code of laws that you are showing me would have to have included injunctions against stealing, and adultery, and lying and murder, because no human society would exist for very long without these laws. And it's a good bet that there were laws that insisted that parents be honored...and laws that directed the worship of whatever god or gods these Mesopotamians worshiped, because every society at that time had their gods, and no other god could be allowed to supersede their own god or gods.
It's as I've said all along...those precious Ten Commandments that God wrote with His Own finger and gave to a bunch of desert nomads had been in force from ancient times...and they will be in force till the end of time. They are the basis for all human law.
I do not understand why people cannot see this, unless their eyes have been deliberately blinded to the obvious truth of it...

High man requires a high horse.

That doesn't even deserve an answer, Stan.

Well then stop making them and I'll stop reciprocating, unless you're a masochist? You and a few others seem to think moderators don't do their job unless you point it out to them. Guess I'm not the only one you think little of?

This represents a change of attitude in you, Stan.
Or have you forgotten this post of yours:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/22301-is-jesus-the-son-of-godtruly-or-metaphorically/?p=270090

Much of the conversation on that page of that thread revolved around your attempt to have another member kicked off the board because he didn't share your notions about the nature of God...as if any of us could truly understand the true nature of God.

Honestly, Stan, your arrogance seems to know no bounds at all...
I am truly beginning to pity you. But you wouldn't understand that, I'm sure...


EDIT:
Stan, I am quite sure that the mods are more than able to do their job. You're the one who seems to think that you need to point it out to them.

 

[brakelite]

Funny that Paul, Peter and Luke did? You think your perspective is more inspired or more accurate than theirs?

My perspective is precisely the same as theirs...it is your perspective in claiming the laws of God are no longer binding on Christians, that is at odds with Paul, Peter, and Luke. Oh, and Jesus too for that matter. And John, Matthew, and Mark. It seems I need to elucidate some Biblical realities to you Stan. If you disagree with anything following, by all means point it out, and I would be pleased to further discuss. But leave out the ad hominems, and the subtle and not so subtle digs inferring a lack of understanding, integrity, honesty, wisdom, poor judgement or all of the above. They may, as has been your custom in the past, to bolster your own self esteem in belittling others, but they do not assist in arriving at a knowledge of truth.

In the sermon on the mount Christ exhorts His listeners to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. So what is the righteousness of God, and why is it so important that we are to seek it on an equal level of priority as His kingdom?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom 13:10
Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.
Remember, Jesus speaking….“But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness”.…(Matt 6:33)

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

It is evident that the righteousness which comes to us as a free gift by faith is the righteousness of God….so again, what is the righteousness of God?

Psalm 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

The commandments of God are righteousness…not just in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their reviling.

When I last looked, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, so Isaiah, being a prophet, speaks truth. He said, They who know righteousness are those in whose heart is God’s law, thus the law of God is the righteousness of God. I can prove this another way….

All unrighteousness is sin….1 John 5:17.... and whosoever commits sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4
Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness, therefore sin and unrighteousness are the same. So if unrighteousness is transgression against the law, surely righteousness must be obedience to the law. Am I making sense Stan, or is this too confusing? Or better still, is this a proper way to study the Bible...proper exegesis? Comparing scripture with scripture...line upo line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

Now we need to know “what law”?

It is the law which says “thou shalt not covet”. because Paul tells us that is was that law which convinced him of sin. (Romans 7:7.) The law of ten commandments then, is the measure of the righteousness of God. Since it is the law of God, and is righteousness, it must be the righteousness of God. In fact, there really is no other righteousness. It is a written manifestation of the character and nature of God. God is also love, and Paul tells us that love is the fulfilling of the law.
Thus if we are to seek God’s righteousness according to Jesus ' recommendation in Matthew 6, then we are to seek obedience, through faith, to God’s law, by love.
Thus rather than doing away with the law, (how can it be possible to do away with God’s righteousness?) through love we establish the law. All by faith. Not our righteousness, but God’s.

So Solomon was perfectly correct and agreed with the text of Matt 6:33 when he said:

“Let us hear the conclusion to the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.” Eccl 12:13, 14

 

[Barrd]

My perspective is precisely the same as theirs...it is your perspective in claiming the laws of God are no longer binding on Christians, that is at odds with Paul, Peter, and Luke. Oh, and Jesus too for that matter. And John, Matthew, and Mark. It seems I need to elucidate some Biblical realities to you Stan. If you disagree with anything following, by all means point it out, and I would be pleased to further discuss. But leave out the ad hominems, and the subtle and not so subtle digs inferring a lack of understanding, integrity, honesty, wisdom, poor judgement or all of the above. They may, as has been your custom in the past, to bolster your own self esteem in belittling others, but they do not assist in arriving at a knowledge of truth.

In the sermon on the mount Christ exhorts His listeners to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. So what is the righteousness of God, and why is it so important that we are to seek it on an equal level of priority as His kingdom?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom 13:10
Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.
Remember, Jesus speaking….“But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness”.…(Matt 6:33)

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

It is evident that the righteousness which comes to us as a free gift by faith is the righteousness of God….so again, what is the righteousness of God?

Psalm 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

The commandments of God are righteousness…not just in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their reviling.

When I last looked, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, so Isaiah, being a prophet, speaks truth. He said, They who know righteousness are those in whose heart is God’s law, thus the law of God is the righteousness of God. I can prove this another way….

All unrighteousness is sin….1 John 5:17.... and whosoever commits sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4
Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness, therefore sin and unrighteousness are the same. So if unrighteousness is transgression against the law, surely righteousness must be obedience to the law. Am I making sense Stan, or is this too confusing? Or better still, is this a proper way to study the Bible...proper exegesis? Comparing scripture with scripture...line upo line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

Now we need to know “what law”?

It is the law which says “thou shalt not covet”. because Paul tells us that is was that law which convinced him of sin. (Romans 7:7.) The law of ten commandments then, is the measure of the righteousness of God. Since it is the law of God, and is righteousness, it must be the righteousness of God. In fact, there really is no other righteousness. It is a written manifestation of the character and nature of God. God is also love, and Paul tells us that love is the fulfilling of the law.
Thus if we are to seek God’s righteousness according to Jesus ' recommendation in Matthew 6, then we are to seek obedience, through faith, to God’s law, by love.
Thus rather than doing away with the law, (how can it be possible to do away with God’s righteousness?) through love we establish the law. All by faith. Not our righteousness, but God’s.

So Solomon was perfectly correct and agreed with the text of Matt 6:33 when he said:

“Let us hear the conclusion to the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.” Eccl 12:13, 14

This is positively brilliant.

You are saying the exact same thing I've been saying all along...only you are saying it smoothly...elegantly.

I've been trying to get this across for days...and you make it look easy.

 

[brakelite]

This is positively brilliant.

You are saying the exact same thing I've been saying all along...only you are saying it smoothly...elegantly.

I've been trying to get this across for days...and you make it look easy.

I refuse any credit for the above...I have had many fine teachers who understand and teach God's word with far greater understanding than I could ever hope for or attain to. Yet when looked at in light of what I have presented, the concept of obedience and law-keeping is really so very simple and harmonizes so perfectly with the gospel and the purposes of God with mankind. To free him not just from the consequences of sin, but from sin itself. Freedom from the power of sin equates with obedience. Freedom from sin and selfishness equates with love and righteousness. Sadly, so many Christians today do not have the faith to believe God can keep them from sinning. And if they do not have such faith, what faith remains that can gain them entrance into God's kingdom, where His laws govern the universe? There is in such a one only presumption and wishful thinking.
The following declaration is made before Christ returns to take His church home. There will be no change of heart regards obedience and sin at the time of the second coming. Decisions for righteousness and holy living are to be made now, today, while there is still time.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Barrd]

I refuse any credit for the above...I have had many fine teachers who understand and teach God's word with far greater understanding than I could ever hope for or attain to. Yet when looked at in light of what I have presented, the concept of obedience and law-keeping is really so very simple and harmonizes so perfectly with the gospel and the purposes of God with mankind. To free him not just from the consequences of sin, but from sin itself. Freedom from the power of sin equates with obedience. Freedom from sin and selfishness equates with love and righteousness. Sadly, so many Christians today do not have the faith to believe God can keep them from sinning. And if they do not have such faith, what faith remains that can gain them entrance into God's kingdom, where His laws govern the universe? There is in such a one only presumption and wishful thinking.
The following declaration is made before Christ returns to take His church home. There will be no change of heart regards obedience and sin at the time of the second coming. Decisions for righteousness and holy living are to be made now, today, while there is still time.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Amen.

 

[justaname]

The Law consists of 613 mitzvot, not just 10. The 10 are only a part of the whole.

When the phrase love is the fulfillment of the Law the emphasis is on the action of love fulfilling the Law not obeying the Law resulting in love.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness. We are made righteous through our faith not our actions. Our command is to love. By living as directed (in love) we prove the faith.

Brakelite:

you are teaching it is our actions that result in righteousness...this is simply a false teaching.

Barrd:

6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it." - Genesis 4:6-7

Cain was warned by God. And again anything against God's nature is sin, not just transgression of the Law. Do not settle for a limited view of sin. We are the image bearers of God. Sin is anything that does not conform to His image. Love will always conform to that image as God is love. Anything that seeks not for God's glory is self serving and sin. We as the creation are to seek God's glory in all we do. This is loving God. This is the Law written on our hearts. This penetrates much deeper than anything written on stone. This is the foundation of any moral code.

We are not called to be Hebrews...we are called to be love in Christ. The Hebrews were given the Law, we were given God's own Spirit. We can do what the Hebrews could not; love God with our entire being bringing Him glory, and loving one another also bringing Him glory. We can do this because He has given of His Spirit.

Obedience to a set of rules is not love it is obedience. Love goes beyond the rules as to the heart of why we obey. Love does obey but obedience does not result in love.

There are many things we can do that are sin that are not specifically written in the 10 commandments. Homosexuality is only one sin not listed.

 

[Barrd]

The Law consists of 613 mitzvot, not just 10. The 10 are only a part of the whole.

When the phrase love is the fulfillment of the Law the emphasis is on the action of love fulfilling the Law not obeying the Law resulting in love.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness. We are made righteous through our faith not our actions. Our command is to love. By living as directed (in love) we prove the faith.

Brakelite:

you are teaching it is our actions that result in righteousness...this is simply a false teaching.

Barrd:

6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it." - Genesis 4:6-7

Cain was warned by God. And again anything against God's nature is sin, not just transgression of the Law. Do not settle for a limited view of sin. We are the image bearers of God. Sin is anything that does not conform to His image. Love will always conform to that image as God is love. Anything that seeks not for God's glory is self serving and sin. We as the creation are to seek God's glory in all we do. This is loving God. This is the Law written on our hearts. This penetrates much deeper than anything written on stone. This is the foundation of any moral code.

We are not called to be Hebrews...we are called to be love in Christ. The Hebrews were given the Law, we were given God's own Spirit. We can do what the Hebrews could not; love God with our entire being bringing Him glory, and loving one another also bringing Him glory. We can do this because He has given of His Spirit.

Obedience to a set of rules is not love it is obedience. Love goes beyond the rules as to the heart of why we obey. Love does obey but obedience does not result in love.

There are many things we can do that are sin that are not specifically written in the 10 commandments. Homosexuality is only one sin not listed.

This is not the first time I've heard you mention the 613 mitzvot. Do you know what these are?
Are you aware that several of them have to do with how a Jew is to behave toward a Gentile?

It might be worth it to actually study those mitzvot, if you're going to talk about them. You can find a complete list of them here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm#Gentiles

Just as a quick exercise...here are the first ten of those mitzvot:


G-d

1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1). See What Do Jews Believe?.
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8). See What Do Jews Believe?.
3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32) (CCA5). See The Name of G-d.
5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev . 22:32) (CCN155). See The Name of G-d.
6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) (CCA2). See What Do Jews Believe?.
7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) (CCA3). See What Do Jews Believe?.
8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) (CCA4).
9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9) (CCA6).

Now, I'm no genius...but even I can see how these ten mitzvot are handily expressed in the first three of the Ten Commandments given to these people, written by the finger of God, Himself. Later, Moses went over the details, and these ten mitzvot are the result.

Now, it is true that many of these mitzvot have nothing whatsoever to do with God's Ten Commandments. Some of them, you'd have to be Jewish to keep:


Treatment of Gentiles

1. To love the stranger (Deut. 10:19) (CCA61). See Love and Brotherhood.
2. Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Ex. 22:20) (CCN49).
3. Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20) (CCN50).
4. Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) (CCN19). See Interfaith Marriages.
5. To exact the debt of an alien (Deut. 15:3) (affirmative).
6. To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).

Many of them, even the most religious Jew can't keep today, because they have to do with the Temple, which no longer exists. I think my favorite of these is this one:

That a kohein shall not enter the Sanctuary with disheveled hair (Lev. 10:6) (negative). See Kohein.

Do you comb your hair before you walk into church? Better make sure! Of course, if you are not descended from Aaron, your hairdo really doesn't matter. Is your last name Cohen, by any chance?

As you say, we are given God's Spirit. How can we not obey, then? Can the Spirit of God disobey God?
The missing ingredient, as you point out, is love.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you love Him?
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do you love Him?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Do you love Him, Justaname?

 

[Barrd]

Just for fun:

GENESIS
God: Alright, you two, don't do the one thing. Other than that, have fun.
Adam & Eve: Okay.
Satan: You should do the thing.
Adam & Eve: Okay.
God: What happened!?
Adam & Eve: We did the thing.
God: Guys . . .

THE REST OF THE OLD TESTAMENT
God: You are my people, and you should not do the things.
People: We won't do the things.
God: Good.
People: We did the things.
God: Guys . . .

THE
GOSPELS
Jesus: I am the Son of God, and even though you have done the things, the Father and I still love you and want you to live. Don't do the things anymore.
Healed people: Okay! Thank you!
Other people: We've never seen him do the things, but he probably does the things when no one is looking.
Jesus: I have never done the things.
Other people: We're going to put you on trial for doing the things.
Pilate: Did you do the things?
Jesus: No.
Pilate: He didn't do the things.
Other people: Kill him anyway.
Pilate: Okay.
Jesus: Guys . . .

PAUL'S LETTERS
People: We did the things.
Paul: Jesus still loves you, and because you love Him, you have to stop doing the things.
People: Okay.

PAUL'S LETTERS PART II
People: We did the things again.
Paul: Guys . . .

REVELATION
John: When Jesus comes back, there will be no more people who do the things. In the meantime, stop doing the things.

THE END

I saw this on another Christian community board, and thought I'd share it here.
It made me giggle.


So, ahh....are you doing the things?
Guys...