What is Trusting God, exactly?

[justaname]

Joe,
Perhaps I could have used appear instead of stand.

It seems you and I view the scriptures differently. I do not know of anyone being able to receive the Holy Spirit after judgement. The every knee will bow verse again shows when Jesus Christ is revealed and has judged the wicked it will be completely apparent He is Lord. I mean the wicked was just judged by the Lord, and only the Lord can pass judgement and condemnation.

Matthew 25:41

My question to you is why would Jesus teach such a thing as condemnation for the wicked if it does not exist. Is God a liar?

 

[Axehead]

Dear Axehead,
Again you pour out your conjecture and have no scriptures which support it. Why can't you support your statements with scripture? Your beliefs are coming from what your carnal reasoning wants you to believe about God. But the carnal mind cannot know God. To know God, look to scripture and believe it. Of course, that is not possible without the Holy Spirit.
Joe

My "conjecture" is based on the revelation of God in scripture. I am glad you brought up this discussion and am satisfied that I have had a chance to say what I had to say and now it has become a record for all to read. I could give you plenty of scriptures, but I don't believe that is what you are really looking for, is it Joe?

Axehead

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe,
Perhaps I could have used appear instead of stand.

It seems you and I view the scriptures differently. I do not know of anyone being able to receive the Holy Spirit after judgement. The every knee will bow verse again shows when Jesus Christ is revealed and has judged the wicked it will be completely apparent He is Lord. I mean the wicked was just judged by the Lord, and only the Lord can pass judgement and condemnation.

Matthew 25:41

My question to you is why would Jesus teach such a thing as condemnation for the wicked if it does not exist. Is God a liar?

Dear Justaname,
Condemnation is real but it is NOT ETERNAL. Death is NOT ETERNAL. Judgment is NOT ETERNAL. An age is NOT ETERNAL. They all have a beginning and an end. Christ told the Pharisees that tax collectors and harlots will enter BEFORE they do. It is not a matter of "if" one comes to Christ and is saved, it is a matter of time. That is why Paul said "every man in his own ORDER. Scripture teaches that the physical Jews will be the absolute last to come to Christ. ALL the Gentiles will be saved before Christ draws the physical Jews to Him and that will occur in the final age when they are judged. As I have said, judgment is a necessary part of burning away our desire to sin. Salvation (making us like Christ) is a long complicated process of judgment, death and resurrection. We must go through this process to be "born again". Christ is going to cause that process of salvation to occur in every person's life at the appointed time. HE IS THE SAVIOR AND WE MUST WAIT ON HIM TO SAVE US. HE DOES ALL THE WORK LEST ANY MAN COULD BOAST.

Scripture says that Christ was "destroyed" on the cross. Christ says that a seed of corn must fall to the ground and die (be destroyed) so that a new creature in Christ can live. WE ALL MUST BE DESTROYED. OUR CARNAL NATURE, OUR "OLD MAN" MUST DIE. God destroys Him by judgment. He judges His church now and all others later. Judgment produces righteousness. I know that is not the way the world works, but God does. He destroys the evil and leaves only the good that Christ gives us:

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What "day" shall declare a man's work - our own personal judgment day. Fire represents God's righteous judgment. The works that survives through judgment receive a reward. Those works that do not shall cause the person to suffer loss BUT the man himself shall be saved. He is saved by the judgment process BECAUSE it produces righteousness. All mankind will be judged and they will all be saved, "yet so as by fire".

I have posted many scriptures. You simply to not have the ability to believe them at this point. I stand "looking back" (Rev 1:10-12) and can now see how blind I was before. But while I was blind, I could not see anything, especially the words that I am saying to you today. Once you come out of your spiritual blindness, you too will be able to "look behind you" and see the truth that you had been missing all along. I have met a few people, who just in the same way it happened to me, have experienced this same event in their lives too. Until you experience it, you will never believe. That is the way God works and there is nothing you or I can do to change it - nor would I if I could. I now want God's "will" to be done in my life and not my "will". That is what trusting God is all about.

Sincerely,
Joe

My "conjecture" is based on the revelation of God in scripture. I am glad you brought up this discussion and am satisfied that I have had a chance to say what I had to say and now it has become a record for all to read. I could give you plenty of scriptures, but I don't believe that is what you are really looking for, is it Joe?

Axehead

Dear Axehead,
You "could" have quoted scripture but you didn't. You don't have any scripture that supports your beliefs. I strongly recommend NEVER believing what anyone teaches about God when it comes from their own carnal reasoning. I only recommend believing what scripture teaches. Scripture is how God reveals Himself to us. Everything else is conjecture.

If anyone really wants to know the truth, seek it with all your heart and pray for Christ to reveal Himself to you. That is the only way to find Him.
Joe

 

[verzanumi24]

What is Trusting God, exactly?

What is so complicated about that that it would need to be explained? It is believing that God is trust worthy which means the individual believe that God will do what He has promised.

 

[Axehead]

If God saves everyone, even those that hate Him, then why is there a need to trust Him?


Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

 

[justaname]

Joe,
I appreciate your ideas, thanks for sharing.

Another question though if you don't mind, do you see salvation as being eternal?
Please understand I do know the concepts you present yet I do not embrace them. Most people who hold similar views you do deny the eternality of condemnation, judgment, Hell and the like yet desire to hold Heaven or the Earthly residence as being eternal.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

If God saves everyone, even those that hate Him, then why is there a need to trust Him?


Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Dear Axehead,
EVERYONE hates God before God draws us to Him. Our carnal mind is enemity against God. (Rom 8:7) Don't you believe that you and of all mankind were born with a carnal mind? We were created that way and until Christ comes to us and gives us faith and the Holy Spirit, we will go on hating God. Also, don't you know that Christ proved His love for us all while we were still sinners, while we were all hating Him? (Rom 5:8) If Christ only saves those who love Him, then He would save no one. But He came into the world to save sinners (those who hate Him). When He comes to each of us, He will cause us to love Him - not by force as you like to twist my beliefs. Look at it this way with a little analogy. Before I met my wife, I did not know her and could not love her. When I came to know her, her goodness and love for me CAUSED me to love her back. It is the same with Christ. He will cause us all to love Him by His goodness and because He loved us first. It is not a forced love but the outcome is certain. You simply don't understand that Christ is ONLY coming to choose His church in this age. But another age will come when He will draw the rest of mankind to Him. And until He does, the world will go on hating Him because that is the nature of our carnal mind. You need to pay heed to scripture and put aside the teachings of man.

Joe

Joe,
I appreciate your ideas, thanks for sharing.

Another question though if you don't mind, do you see salvation as being eternal?
Please understand I do know the concepts you present yet I do not embrace them. Most people who hold similar views you do deny the eternality of condemnation, judgment, Hell and the like yet desire to hold Heaven or the Earthly residence as being eternal.

Dear Justaname,
Once we receive the fulness of the Spirit, just as Christ has, we will be "born again". That first happens at the resurrection of His true chruch - not before. At that time, we will be like Christ and will never sin again. We will be immortal. Scripture declares that all mankind will be "born again" someday but most of mankind will not be in His church. Those in the church are considered blessed and receive salvation first. Those in His church will rule and reign with Christ during the final two ages and will be considered priests and kings of God. Christ will use His church to help harvest the rest of mankind. The process of salvation is the same for every man but not the timing ("every man in his own order"). Christ is the Savior and is not willing for any of His creation to perish. Since Christ is the Savior, the work of saving us is all in His hands. He will provide all that is necessary for us to be drawn to Him. It is not forced. The church will find immortal life in the Kingdom of Heaven first, while the rest of mankind continues to hate God. But Christ will turn their hate into love when He comes to them and unvails Himself (book of Revelation) during the final age (the Lake of Fire age). But for now, Christ remains vailed and hidden to all but those He chose for His church. His church will find life during the final to ages and while all others will find judgment during those last two ages (Matt 25:46).

Also, I wanted to address your final comment of "desire to hold Heaven or the Earthly residence as being eternal" Heaven and earth are not physical locations. They are different levels of our spiritual state of being that we must pass through on our way to salvation in Christ. The "called" but not "chosen" dwell on the earth - a little higher than the unbelievers who dwell in the sea. The "chosen" who walk by the Spirit of God dwell in the heavens - very high but not quite finished yet. When Christ said that He was going away to prepare a "mansion" for us, He was speaking of our new spiritual body that we will receive when we are "born again". Someday, heaven and earth will pass away because all mankind will be born again and "all will be fulfilled" (Matt 5:18).
Joe

 

[justaname]

Joe,

Interesting quote for you.

Charles Ryrie
A Survey of Bible Doctrine


The punishment of the unsaved is not annihilation, nor will they be restored after some time of punishment. In other words, the Bible does not allow for conditional immortality (final annihilation) or classic universalism (restoration after a time of punishment). The same word that is used for eternal judgment (Heb 6:2), is used for eternal life (Jn 3:15), and for the eternal God (1 Ti 1:17). If one of these is temporary, then the others must be too. Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11). Again there is no way to escape the conclusion that if God is everlasting, so is punishment in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation and no restoration. Universalism today often takes the form of teaching that all will be saved without any kind of punishment. It is based on misinterpretations of Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:24–28 and Colossians 1:20, but it completely ignores the biblical teaching of the diverse destinies of the righteous and wicked (Mt 25:46; Jn 5:29; Ro 2:8–10; Rev 20:10, 15).

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe,

Interesting quote for you.

Charles Ryrie
A Survey of Bible Doctrine


The punishment of the unsaved is not annihilation, nor will they be restored after some time of punishment. In other words, the Bible does not allow for conditional immortality (final annihilation) or classic universalism (restoration after a time of punishment). The same word that is used for eternal judgment (Heb 6:2), is used for eternal life (Jn 3:15), and for the eternal God (1 Ti 1:17). If one of these is temporary, then the others must be too. Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11). Again there is no way to escape the conclusion that if God is everlasting, so is punishment in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation and no restoration. Universalism today often takes the form of teaching that all will be saved without any kind of punishment. It is based on misinterpretations of Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:24–28 and Colossians 1:20, but it completely ignores the biblical teaching of the diverse destinies of the righteous and wicked (Mt 25:46; Jn 5:29; Ro 2:8–10; Rev 20:10, 15).

Dear Justaname,
I have studied "aionios" extensively. It is one of the most critically MISTRANSLATED words in the bible. The writer of your paragraph is incorrect. Those that are blessed to be in the church are given "aionios" life, those that are not in the church do not receive "aionios" life. "Aion" means age or eon. It is a period of time that has a beginning and an end. It's adjective form "aionios" is no different. Here is how this phrase reads when properly translated: Those in the church have life during the ages and those that are not in the church do not have life during the ages. Aion nor its adjective form can never mean eternal or everlasting. The church has "aionios" life in the Kingdom of Heaven during the final two ages and will be the kings and priests of Christ. Those that are not chosen for the church do not get to experience this life.

There are many good objective studies on the internet that examine "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios". Also, Young's literal translation is a good translation for those verses in question.

God simply does not punish is children without purpose. His purpose, as with any good parent, is to correct the child. When the correction is made, the punishment is ended. The punishment has a beginning and an end. Do you think that God is not as good a parent as carnal mankind? Quite the opposite. God knows exactly what we need in the way of correction so that we learn and in the end, become righteous. His work is far from over - in fact, He is just getting started. He hasn't even harvested the first fruits of His Kingdom yet. Every man must be changed and will be changed in order for Christ to defeat sin and death. As I have previously said, every man in his own order starting first with the church. Only a select few are to be kings and priests with Christ during the final two ages The whole world can't all be the leaders. If they were, who would they lead?

Joe

 

[justaname]

Joe,

You didn't use the verse properly and you use no references, am I to just take you at your word? That is not scholarly.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe,

You didn't use the verse properly and you use no references, am I to just take you at your word? That is not scholarly.

Dear Justaname,
No, never take anyone's word for it. I recommended that you find some objective articles on the internet that will go into much more detail than what I can write on this thread.

I can show you some verses where most translations will say "everlasting" or "forever" for the Greek words "aion" or "aionios". However, "aion" is also translated as "world" which is also incorrect. It should always be translated as age or eon and it's adjective should be translated as age enduring or some similiar phrasing. Here are some verses that are commonly translated incorrectly:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)

Another one:

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages.

What I have presented is certainly not adequate to convince most people. You need to study the translations of "aion" and "aionios" in much more detail.

There are several good essays on this study on the internet. The one I like the best was written by Ray Smith and I would highly recommend his website: bible-truths.com.
He wrote a letter to John Hagee concerning his teaching of hell and in the letter he goes into the translations of those two words. His letter is posted on his website. Also, his teaching series entitled "The Lake of Fire Series" is an excellent work and I highly recommend you reading it, too. Ray is one of the few teachers that I can recommend and I am honored to have been able to call him my friend. Ray died this past May after a long and painful battle with cancer.

Joe

 

[justaname]

I am sorry and grieve the loss.

Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11).
This is the same word used in context by the same author. How can the definition change?

 

[JoeinArkansas]

I am sorry and grieve the loss.

Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11).
This is the same word used in context by the same author. How can the definition change?

Dear Justaname,
I don't see any problems with any of these verses.

Rev 15:7 merely confirms that Christ lives during the age of the ages, the last age.

However in John 10:28, it confirms what I have been saying. It says that the church will also live during the age of the ages (the final and greatest age) but goes on to say in addition to that life, they will never perish. The common translation doesn't seem logical since it says that they will have eternal life AND that they will not perish. If they have eternal life, then there is no need to state that they will not perish. Eternal life means not to perish.

In Rev 14:11, it says that the smoke of their torment goes up til the age of the ages are complete - no problem there since judgment is limited to the age. The KJV translation says "forever and ever". If it is "forever" then why does it need to say "and ever"? They translated it that way because the Greek word "aion" is used twice in that verse and they felt like they needed to show some kind of a repeat for "forever" so they added "and ever".

Also, the Greek language did not have a word that meant "forever" or "everlasting". The way scripture deals with things that last forever is to say that they don't perish, have no end or that they are immortal. The definition for "aion" and "aionios" changed to add eternal or everlasting to it at a much later date so as to accomodate the church's doctrine of eternal punishment.

Also, scripture primarily deals with the time of the ages. The creation and plan to create children of God is broken down into ages. It hardly speaks of anything outside of the ages. The future outside the "ages" has not been revealed to us. Paul even said that no man can even image the great things that God has in store for us. That statement does not make sense if most of mankind will continue to be punished after the ages are complete.

The furthest event out into the future that scripture reveals to us is 1Cor 15:20-28 and that is when the final event of Christ delivering up the Kingdom to the Father is shown to us:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This section of scripture reveals that all who have died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. There are no exceptions. Everyone will be saved in Christ because everyone died in Adam. It is talking about one group and that group is all saved by Christ. Paul then adds that not all men will be saved at the same time though - everyman in his own order. The harlot church teaches that there is no order at all but merely one event were some of mankind is saved. But Paul says that is not so - all who die in Adam will be saved by Christ, just not at the same time. Paul then says that once Christ has completed the salvation of the world, He will deliver the Kingdom to the Father and God will be "all and all". If there are still unsaved people being punished in hell, certainly God will not be "all in all". At the time Christ delivers up the Kingdom, the ages come to an end, the law come to an end, death comes to an end, sin comes to an end, the reign of Christ comes to an end, the earth and heaven come will come to an end and the future for the children of God begins. Scripture is silent beyond this point except for a reference to the fact that the "increase" of the Kingdom of Heaven will not ever end - Christ's reign will end but the increase of the Kingdom of Heaven will have no end. God will have more and more children because we give Him pleasure.

Have you ever really thought about "eternal punishment"? It makes no sense that a loving God could punish most of mankind for no purpose. Everything that God does works together for good. I see no good in punishing someone forever and I am certain that God doesn't either. Scripture clearly says that when God judges us, we will learn righteousness - that is the way God loves His enemies. He does good to them. Only an evil god (Satan) would punish someone without having a good purpose for doing so. There is nothing good about eternal punishment but the thought of it does seem to please the carnal mind of man.

Please read the website that I mentioned. It will answer your questions much more thoroughly and will explain the history behind the change in the meanings of aion and aionios.

Joe

 

[jburic09032]

Dear Justaname,
Condemnation is real but it is NOT ETERNAL. Death is NOT ETERNAL. Judgment is NOT ETERNAL. An age is NOT ETERNAL.

Are you saying no one spends eternity in hell?

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Are you saying no one spends eternity in hell?

Dear jburic09032,
Not only am I saying that no one spends eternity in hell, but I am also saying that there is no "hell" as described by the church. It is a fable that came from the carnal mind of man. The christian "hell" is NOT taught in scripture. Those who Christ did not choose to be in His church will definitely be judged in the final age but that judgment has a purpose and will be proportionate to each person's sin. After their judgment, they too will be drawn to Christ just as He drew His church to Him. Judgment's purpose is to correct the person's behavior and to teach them God's righteousness. Judgment is not eternal and will only last until God's purpose is satisfied within each individual.

We are ALL created to be children of God and God will not fail to achieve that goal. The organized churches of the world are spiritually blind and do not understand God's plan for saving the world nor do they want God to do it. They want to believe that they are special and have, from their own free will", made the right choice in "accepting" Jesus. They are carnally minded and do not have the love of God in their hearts.

If you really want to know FROM SCRIPTURE what God has planned to do and WILL DO, then read my recent posts over the past 2 or 3 weeks that I have made on this thread and many others. Christ truly is the Savior of the world and will not rest until all of mankind has been changed into a new person in Christ. His Word proclaims that He will do it but only a few believe Him.

Sincerely,
Joe

 

[jburic09032]

The word "hell" is used 31 times in the Bible. What is it talking about it?

 

[Axehead]

The word "hell" is used 31 times in the Bible. What is it talking about it?

Actually, Hell is mentioned 54 times in the Bible (KJV) with 23 of those times in the NT and 16 of those 23 times, by Jesus. No one talked more about Hell than Jesus Christ.


Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat_18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luk_10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk_12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Axehead

 

[JoeinArkansas]

The word "hell" is used 31 times in the Bible. What is it talking about it?

The word "hell" is the unseen place or the grave. It is not a location where people go to be tormented in fire for eternity. In fact, scripture even says that death and hell were delivered up and then cast into the Lake of Fire. So a more scriptural understanding is that the Lake of Fire is the place of judgment - not hell. Hell is the grave or the unseen place. The Lake of Fire is the place of judgment, but it is merely a spiritual symbol for a confined place of judgment. There is no fire in the Lake of Fire. There is not even a lake. Those are SYMBOLS that represent a confined place of judgment. It is not eternal because it has a beginning and an end. God's judgment produces righteousness in those being judged and is for the benefit of those being judged. Without judgment, no one would be saved. The church in this age is judged first, then the rest of mankind will be judged second. That is why the Lake of Fire is called the second death. The church experienced the first death (death to self as Paul described) and the rest of mankind will experience this same death to self in the Lake of Fire. From both deaths, a New Man in Christ is born.

Joe

 

[jburic09032]

No.




That has to be punishment!
thats like court with no prison.
i believe everyone will have a chance to repent and be saved, before judgment day.
Can you imagine looking down and seeing your children sinning and sinning again and again and again and again, and then being told the truth but refusing it, and sinning more.


i believe everyone will have a chance to repent and be saved, before judgment day.
Your saying these people will "come around" and eventually become saved?

With no hell, we can go and kill our brother and blaspheme, and commit adultery and still state that we're a christian and we're going to heaven.

You said :"In fact, scripture even says that death and hell were delivered up and then cast into the Lake of Fire."
Revelation 6:8

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 20:14

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Death and hades are obviously live creatures or creature.



"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. Mark 9:42

 

[JoeinArkansas]

No.




That has to be punishment!
thats like court with no prison.
i believe everyone will have a chance to repent and be saved, before judgment day.
Can you imagine looking down and seeing your children sinning and sinning again and again and again and again, and then being told the truth but refusing it, and sinning more.


i believe everyone will have a chance to repent and be saved, before judgment day.
Your saying these people will "come around" and eventually become saved?

With no hell, we can go and kill our brother and blaspheme, and commit adultery and still state that we're a christian and we're going to heaven.

You said :"In fact, scripture even says that death and hell were delivered up and then cast into the Lake of Fire."
Revelation 6:8

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 20:14

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Death and hades are obviously live creatures or creature.



"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. Mark 9:42

Dear jburic09032,
When a parent punishes their child for doing something wrong, does the punishment last forever? Or does the punishment last until the wrongdoing is corrected? Once the child's behavior is corrected, does not the parent forgive the child? Only a parent void of love would not forgive their child and only a monster would continue the punishment of their child for all eternity. Why do you believe God is such a monster? Scripture says that God is love and that His mercy and love never end. Why do you place time limits on God's love and mercy? Your hell doctrine is a direct contradiction to the character of God. Do you not know when God judges us, He does so to correct our behavior and to teach us righteousness?

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Also, why do you say "there has to be a prison"? The penalty of sin is death, not prison. The prison of hell was created by the carnal mind of man and is not in scripture.

You said that "death and hades are obviously live creatures". Death is the state of not being alive. Do you not know that Christ is going to resurrect the dead? Do you not know that He is also going to have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth? Do you not know that He is the Savior of the world? Why do you believe He is a failure?

1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Since the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, just who is going to cause Him to fail in that mission? Certainly not the inhabitants of the world:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Your beliefs are in direct contradiction with scripture. Why do you place the teachings of the harlot church above that of scripture? Where is your faith to believe that God will accomplish all that He says He will do?

Joe