What is Trusting God, exactly?

[jburic09032]

your twisting it into what you would like to believe.
You want to believe that every things going to be alright and everyone will turn out good.
you wants to believe in a fairy tale, which this is not, this is real life. God has been gracious enough by giving us a choice, a second chance. even though we dont deserve it. That makes it sound dull but really life in Christ is amazing.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey Joe, good to see ya here, while most here CB don't believe in UR and call it heresy, don't be put off, this is still a pretty good christian forum full of other topics with good discussions. A few include discussion on UR. There are a few here like myself that do believe in UR. My current situation does not permit me to be here as much as before, so I am real glad to see you here. God bless.

That was an OUTSTANDING post, dragonfly. And you did it perfectly without needing any scriptures. You brought out vital truths about the character of God and heart of man. Universalism is actually a very selfish and carnal belief.

Axehead

I see that you really misunderstand UR and what it teaches. Many confuse UR (universal reconciliation) with UU (unitarian universalism) and the sad part is they are closed minded and hard hearted towards any real discussion on the topic.

The scriptures clearly declare exactly what God's will is concerning this and His plan to accomplish His will, yet many believe in religious teachings that are contrary and conflicting with God's plan and will concerning human kind and all of creation.

If some would like to honestly search out the truth of the scriptures concerning God's plan with an open heart and mind I would be willing to join in a discussion.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi jiggyfly,

Would you kindly describe 'UR' for me, please?

 

[jburic09032]

1 Timothy 2:4

New International Version (NIV)

[sup]4 [/sup]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. - Mark 9:43 NIV
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' - Mark 9:47-48 NIV

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24 NIV

In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. - Luke 16:23 NIV


So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' - Luke 16:24 NIV

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. - John 15:6 NIV

but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. - Hebrews 10:27 NIV

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ... Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10, 14-15 NASB

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11 NASB

....doesn't sound like a temporary time of judgement to me.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

I would like to start with your 1 Tim verse.

The better translation is here:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,​

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

This directly coincides with scripture as is shown here.​

Ezek 18:23-24​

23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? ​

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.​

Ezek 18:32​

32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”​

Clearly in scripture the Lord God declares there are some who die. ​

Dear Justaname,
I have addressed this many times before on other threads. God is not like a man who does not obtain all that He desires. He is GOD and He rules supreme over His creation. God gets ALL that He desires. If He wants to save all of mankind, that is exactly what He will do. So even if the verse is translated as "desires", it is still going to happen.

Isa 55:11[font="Trebuchet MS""] S o shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.[/font]


Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. (Darby)

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Since it does not give God pleasure for the wicked not to repent, then God is going to cause all mankind to repent. It is not hard for Him. But God has a plan and a time for causing all men to repent. When Christ's work is completely finished, all mankind will have repented and have found salvation in Christ. God declares that He will do it. He says that is what pleases Him. He desires it. And as the verses above say, He will do it!

Your beliefs in God are bringing Him down to the level of weak mankind who God refutes as "nothing". For some reason, you believe the "will" of mankind is an obstacle that God can't overcome. That belief is completely unscriptural. He rules supreme over the inhabitants of the earth and He will accomplish all that pleases Him. Someday Christ will have all men be saved to the glory of the Father:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Joe

1 Timothy 2:4

New International Version (NIV)

[sup]4 [/sup]who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. - Mark 9:43 NIV
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' - Mark 9:47-48 NIV

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24 NIV

In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. - Luke 16:23 NIV


So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' - Luke 16:24 NIV

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. - John 15:6 NIV

but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. - Hebrews 10:27 NIV

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ... Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10, 14-15 NASB

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11 NASB

....doesn't sound like a temporary time of judgement to me.

Dear jburic09032,
It may not "sound" like temporary judgment to you but scripture declares that it is. Concerning Lararus and the rich man: IT IS A PARABLE. A parable is a fictious story that contains a spiritual truth. The meaning of this story is that the Jews will be cast out of the kingdom and the Gentiles be brought into it. But Romans clearly says that when the "fullness" of the Gentiles are brought into the Kingdom, THEN the Jews will be saved. There is an order to when people are saved. The Jews who were FIRST, will be LAST. The Church is now FIRST. Then comes the Lake of Fire age where all remaining Gentiles will be brought to Christ FOLLOWED by all remaining Jews.

Also, "fire" in scripture is a symbol for judgment. When a person is judged by God, it produces righteousness in them. Without judgment no one would be saved. The fire of judgment purifies the sin out of us. Christ paid the debt for our sins at the cross but He still must stop us from continuing to sin. That is were the process of repentence, judgment and spiritually maturing in Christ come in. Until Christ calls you and then chooses you, you will remain carnal and sinful. But you will not remain dead after you die. That price has been paid - whether you believe in Christ or not. YOU WILL BE RESURRECTED. Most upon their resurrection will go to judgment and then on to salvation. But the true church will go on to life in the Kingdom of Heaven since they were judged in this age. The process is no different for the "church" or for the "unsaved". Everyone must be judged in order to be purged of their sinning ways. Christ came to give us life (that penalty of sin was paid at the cross) and to give us life more abundantly (the process of salvation that purges our sinning ways) John 10:10. We cannot stop sinning by merely choosing to - we are too spiritually weak. Christ will correct that spiritual weakness within us all by making us a New Man in Christ by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Until we have that full measure of the Spirit, we will continue to sin.

Christ is the Savior of the world. He will not stop His work until all mankind has been changed. He has a plan for ALL mankind and He will not fail in accomplishing it. His love will not fail us and that is the GOODS NEWS that the church should be preaching to the world. The gospel that the "church" preaches is a nightmare for most of mankind. Only Satan could be behind such a gospel as that - and he is! But that too is all part of God's plan. God will conquer sin and death for us all. Once you believe that, you will finally come to really understand the power and love of Christ And when you see that you were the "man of sin" who had been dwelling in God's temple (our body), then you will hear His voice to "come out of her my people" and start learning of the true Christ that the scripture declares. You will "look back" and see that you kept the things written in the book (Revelation), both the good and the bad.

Joe

Hey Joe, good to see ya here, while most here CB don't believe in UR and call it heresy, don't be put off, this is still a pretty good christian forum full of other topics with good discussions. A few include discussion on UR. There are a few here like myself that do believe in UR. My current situation does not permit me to be here as much as before, so I am real glad to see you here. God bless.



I see that you really misunderstand UR and what it teaches. Many confuse UR (universal reconciliation) with UU (unitarian universalism) and the sad part is they are closed minded and hard hearted towards any real discussion on the topic.

The scriptures clearly declare exactly what God's will is concerning this and His plan to accomplish His will, yet many believe in religious teachings that are contrary and conflicting with God's plan and will concerning human kind and all of creation.

If some would like to honestly search out the truth of the scriptures concerning God's plan with an open heart and mind I would be willing to join in a discussion.

Dear Jiggyfly,
Thanks for your welcome. I have been putting forth the scriptures that teach the true GOODNEWS of Christ for a few weeks now. However, the spiritual darkness on this forum is very pervasive - but I am not ready to quit just yet. I am still holding out hope that the Lord has made someone ready to see His Truth as the scriptures declare. But if not, I will move on to another place and shake to dust off of my feet as a testimony against them (Matt 10:14).

Joe

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi jiggyfly,

Would you kindly describe 'UR' for me, please?

Sure, UR stands for universal reconciliation and simply means that all things are reconciled back to Father through the Son.

 

[justaname]

Joe,

I do not bring God down as you suggest. God is gorified in the condemnation and glorification of men. For by judging the wicked God is glorified, and by exulting the righteous God is glorified.

What you argue is weak because the same word we use for God being eternal is the same word used for punishment being eternal. It is not man's will being an obstacle rather his unbelief.

Hebrews 6

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, ​

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, ​

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ​

Those who refuse to believe are not the children of God, rather the children of wrath. These children will be united with their father, the Devil, in the lake of fire. The torment they must suffer is separation from God and is eternal.

Psalm 49:19

19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; ​

They will never see the light. ​

20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, ​

Is like the beasts that perish. ​

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. ​

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. ​

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. ​

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. ​

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey Justaname, I assume you do not believe that God is omnipresent, so I wonder do you believe that God is omnipotent?

 

[justaname]

Jigg,

You assume incorrect.

God is separating us from evil, this is the deliverance Jesus requested. We are not omnipresent, thereby we will go to the place our Lord is preparing, and enter His rest.
The only way to separate us from evil is to make us like Him, for He is without sin. All this for His own glory, for God is good and He reigns for ever and ever. World without end, amen.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi jiggyfly,

Sure, UR stands for universal reconciliation and simply means that all things are reconciled back to Father through the Son.

Thanks for this. Do you hold to Joe's interesting invention of a 'lake of fire' age?

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi jiggyfly,



Thanks for this. Do you hold to Joe's interesting invention of a 'lake of fire' age?

Not sure what that means or what it entails, can you elaborate?

Jigg,

You assume incorrect.

God is separating us from evil, this is the deliverance Jesus requested. We are not omnipresent, thereby we will go to the place our Lord is preparing, and enter His rest.
The only way to separate us from evil is to make us like Him, for He is without sin. All this for His own glory, for God is good and He reigns for ever and ever. World without end, amen.

Do you base this on any particular scriptures? Do you understand what omnipresent means?

 

[justaname]

Jigg,

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.
Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.
I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.​

Psalm 139​

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? ​

Or where can I flee from Your presence? ​

8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; ​

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. ​

9 If I take the wings of the dawn, ​

If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, ​

10 Even there Your hand will lead me, ​

And Your right hand will lay hold of me. ​

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, ​

And the light around me will be night,” ​

12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, ​

And the night is as bright as the day. ​

Darkness and light are alike to You.​

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Dear Justaname,

You did not address the issue. You said that "desires" to save all men and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth. I showed you multiple verses of scripture that says God will have ALL His desires. So you do you not believe Him?

You said:
I do not bring God down as you suggest. God is gorified in the condemnation and glorification of men. For by judging the wicked God is glorified, and by exulting the righteous God is glorified.

Show me the verse that says God is glorified in the condemnation of men. God is glorified in the salvation of men but nowhere does it say that He glories in the condemnation of man. Also, no where in scripture does it say that the condemnation of man even pleases God. What pleases Him is when the wicked turn from their wicked ways.






Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.






Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Show me your scriptures. I have heard a lot of your beliefs that are taught by the harlot church but there is no scriptural support for those beliefs. You are believing in the traditions of men, not Jesus Christ.

You said:

What you argue is weak because the same word we use for God being eternal is the same word used for punishment being eternal. It is not man's will being an obstacle rather his unbelief.​

Hebrews 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, ​

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, ​

6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ​

What I argue is what the scriptures say and not what you have been told they say. Jesus is the God of the ages and we are striving for life in those ages. The wicked will not see life in the Kingdom of Heaven during those same ages. Likewise, their punishment is only during the ages. But at the end of the ages, they will be added to the Kingdom of Heaven. There are many, many verses that say they will be. The verse you quoted in Hebrews is speaking of those who will not be a part of the first fruit harvest - they will not obtain the blessings of the church. But they will be saved in the final age. They will lose the rewards but they will be saved by fire.

1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those who are cast into the Lake of Fire will be saved by that fire. Fire is judgment and judgment is what purifies us. The same fire is upon the church in this age to make them white as snow. All men must be judged to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

But from that judgment we will learn righteousness and be "saved by that fire". Even the Pharisees that crucified Christ will be included in salvation but they will be the last to receive it.






Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Do you think Christ was just kidding about the salvation of the Pharisees? The Pharisees will be saved but they will be saved after those that the Pharisees comdemned. Salvation is not a question of "if", it is only a question of "when". As Paul said, there is an order to salvation. The church is the first fruits of the harvest, then the fulness of the Gentiles will be brought in after their judgment, followed lastly by the Jews (which is when the Pharisees that Christ spoke to will be saved).

Luke 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Those who refuse to believe are not the children of God, rather the children of wrath. These children will be united with their father, the Devil, in the lake of fire. The torment they must suffer is separation from God and is eternal.

What you said is partially true. But no where in scripture does it say that those in the Lake of Fire are "separated from God". In fact, the opposite is true. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:35-39). Those in the Lake of Fire are surrounded by God who is their consuming fire. He will burn away all that is wicked and leave all that is good. And what will be left is a new man in Chirst. All our wickedness will be consumed - the church first and then everyone else. We will all be saved by fire. Christ is that fire.

Psalm 49:19

19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; ​

They will never see the light. ​

20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, ​

Is like the beasts that perish. ​

When David wrote that scripture, it was true - men are like beasts who perish. We didn't go to "hell". We merely perished and didn't exist any longer. But because of the work of Christ on the cross, mankind will not perish but we will all be resurrected back to life since Christ paid the penalty of death for ALL OF US. And John 10:10 says that "life" is only half of Christ's work that He came to do. He will also give us life more abundantly. And that life is a life free from sin in the Kingdom of Heaven. As I said, it is not a matter of "if", but only a matter of "when".

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. ​

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. ​

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. ​

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. ​

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

No place was found for them in the Kingdom of Heaven and that is why they are cast into the Lake of Fire. They will be judged and changed into the children of God.

Let me ask you this: why do you think you are so special that Christ is going to save you but not most of mankind? Are your sins any less than theirs? You know it only takes one sin to get the death penalty. So why do you think you are worthy of salvation and they are not? Be careful with your answer and don't contradict God's Word with it. Scripture is very precise in this matter.

Also, why is it fair according to your doctrine for those who lived before Christ to go to hell? What about those who never even heard of Christ? What about the mentally handicapped? What about the children? Where in scripture does it say what God is going to do with them? According to your hell doctrine, they must be cast into the Lake of Fire. Show me your scriptures for these people. I know what God has planned for them and it isn't eternity in hell.
Joe

 

[jiggyfly]

Jigg,

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.
Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.
I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.​

Psalm 139​

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? ​

Or where can I flee from Your presence? ​

8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; ​

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. ​

9 If I take the wings of the dawn, ​

If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, ​

10 Even there Your hand will lead me, ​

And Your right hand will lay hold of me. ​

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, ​

And the light around me will be night,” ​

12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, ​

And the night is as bright as the day. ​

Darkness and light are alike to You.​

Exactly, so if God is everywhere how someone be separated from Him as you mentioned earlier?

 

[justaname]

Jigg,

Genesis 1

4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

2Corinthians 6:14
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

As believers we are imparted the Holy Spirit, thereby we have fellowship with God, though our mediator and high priest Christ. Those cast into the outer darkness will not have that opportunity. Believers are grafted into the vine which is Christ, the branches who are not grafted in are gathered together and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 15
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”​

​

​

Matthew 5​

​

​

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; ​

​

​

15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. ​

​

​

16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.​

​

​

Joe,​

​

​

First off do you not know the body of Christ is the church? Why would you call the bride of Christ a harlot, if it is you yourself claim to be that bride?​

​

​

Scripture teaches no can come to the Father except through the Son. Jesus is the righteous judge. Those who enter the rest provided is a choice made by Him.​

​

​

You have presented many questions I will post further later. ​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[Axehead]

Exactly, so if God is everywhere how someone be separated from Him as you mentioned earlier?

Jigg,

Before I was born again, I was separated from God and DEAD in my trespasses and sin. Even thought God is omnipresent, I was separated from him which means His life was not dwelling in me. I was deriving all of my "life" and "character" from the Devil. We either "eat" from God or we "eat" from Satan. We will be with which ever father we choose to abide in, in this life, for eternity. God is omnipresent, that is true. At the same time, many men are separated from God.

Have you read the story of the rich man and Lazarus?

Axehead

 

[jiggyfly]

Jigg,

Before I was born again, I was separated from God and DEAD in my trespasses and sin. Even thought God is omnipresent, I was separated from him which means His life was not dwelling in me. I was deriving all of my "life" and "character" from the Devil. We either "eat" from God or we "eat" from Satan. We will be with which ever father we choose to abide in, in this life, for eternity. God is omnipresent, that is true. At the same time, many men are separated from God.

Have you read the story of the rich man and Lazarus?

Axehead

I used to be similar to that, but it is conflicting with some scriptures.
Like Acts 2 where God fulfilled his prophecy in the book of Joel and poured out His Spirit on all flesh and in Romans where Paul declares that there is nothing that can separate us from God's love, just to name two.

Do believe what Paul wrote to the Colossians chapter 1:19&20?

Sure I have read the story and your write it is just a story or allegory.

As I said before I would be very happy to discuss UR with others but think it best in a thread of it's own. It paints an all together different picture of Father than the "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" message.

Jigg,

Genesis 1

4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

2Corinthians 6:14
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

As believers we are imparted the Holy Spirit, thereby we have fellowship with God, though our mediator and high priest Christ. Those cast into the outer darkness will not have that opportunity. Believers are grafted into the vine which is Christ, the branches who are not grafted in are gathered together and thrown into the fire.

So what is this place where God is not present?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi jiggyfly,

Hell is hell because God is there. He sees the hearts.

Here is the short version of Joe's lake of fire age:

No place was found for them in the Kingdom of Heaven and that is why they are cast into the Lake of Fire. They will be judged and changed into the children of God.

You said:

Like Acts 2 where God fulfilled his prophecy in the book of Joel and poured out His Spirit on all flesh and in Romans where Paul declares that there is nothing that can separate us from God's love, just to name two.

The first of those - the Spirit poured out on all flesh - is only effective as the transforming power of God, in those whose hearts have been pricked by conviction of sin, who receive the indwelling Spirit by faith. Clearly, there were many unbelieving Jews after Pentecost, who regularly tried to kill Paul. I hope you are not suggesting that they too, were acting under the direction and guidance of the Holy Spirit, which (clearly) had not entered their hearts as it had Paul's?

The second is directed specifically to Christians - believers who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit. God is not in those who reject the atoning death of His Son. Why else would Paul entreat the Corinthians to faith in 2 Cor 5:20?

 

[Axehead]

I used to be similar to that, but it is conflicting with some scriptures.
Like Acts 2 where God fulfilled his prophecy in the book of Joel and poured out His Spirit on all flesh and in Romans where Paul declares that there is nothing that can separate us from God's love, just to name two.

Hi Jiggy,

In your everyday experience do you seriously think that God has poured out His Spirit "on all flesh", the way you understand it and are communicating it to me? Or could this mean that He has poured out His Spirit on all flesh that receive Him? Doesn't that fit our experience and the rest of the scriptures in God's Word, much better?

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you (NOT ALL) as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It is very important not to exclude scriptures in order to prove a predetermined belief.

Man must exercise faith in Christ Jesus and then he becomes a child of God.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

I would ask...who is trusting God, exactly?