Here's how:
GOD, who CREATED the universe and everything in it,
can do whatever HE sees fit.
Not what is to our undestanding.
What is wrong with this picture?
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GOD, who CREATED the universe and everything in it,
can do whatever HE sees fit.
Not what is to our undestanding.
- Jan 26, 2017
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God's power unrestricted is unlimited, but He cannot break His own Word. He has restricted Himself by His own Word in certain things. This is why men are able to go against God. God gave them the dominion. In order for Him to help them, THEY must allow Him to do so.
Can God save a baby from the pain and suffering we see inflicted on such innocents today in our societies? Yes! But does He always? Why not? We must know the mind of God and that is something none of us knows more than in part... as I see it. So presumptions that no baby will miss spending eternity with God are still presumptions.
How is it a presumption?
Please post some supporting scripture as I've done.
- Jan 26, 2017
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It is a fair question. I appreciate you answering with compassion. Here is the struggle and the only reason I asked: do we believe we have more mercy than God? Do WE Play God and pick and choose of His creation who deserves forgiveness. We say aborted babies; yet when God offers forgiveness to the doctor performing such acts against God...we cry "not that one" "punish them". We were ALL babies to start out.
Are we adding to scripture what suits our view? Whores, murders, pediohiles, "queers"...God will burn in Hell. The same blood that is offered to us...is also offered to them. We are so merciful; yet full of condemnation and so quick to judge and point fingers.
We can't even begin to understand the mercy of God.
My daughter lived beside a house full of those suffering from mental-illness. family members had sex with family members. They would stand in the yard: brother and sister and kiss. When our daughter was in the process of moving her things out: her father and I went to take down the last thing and pack it up. A trampoline. It was gone. The neighbors went next door and drug a completely still standing trampoline into their yard. We drive up that evening to take it down to find the children(mentally handicap) jumping on it. My husband had his tools in hand and went to the door to speak to the mother. She said "I thought we could have it." My daughter had only been gone for a day. I won't tell you what we did because that is between us and God.
What scripture supports stealing as okay? What scripture supports relations with family members? We may justify that the LORD hasn't revealed their sin to them. They don't know it is sin. So I ask, what about the rest that don't see their sin????
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Everyone is judged according to the contents of their heart. Believer and nonbeliever alike.
The bible states, "For there is no partiality with God".
That means everyone. Nobody gets a free ride.
What are you talking about?
How do you compare the above mentioned with the mentally disabled??
Presumption is perhaps not the best word to use. That also I guess depends a lot upon a person's beliefs or point of view. My belief on this came long ago. It started probably with the Amalekites:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Sam 15:3
King Saul messed up but it was not because he spared the infants and sucklings, but because he spared the best of the livestock and perhaps the king. The Amalekites were the enemy and had abused God's people. Their children did not abuse the Israelites, but the unaccountable children suffered for their parents mistake.
And then there was Achan, the Israelites who troubled Israel by holding back silver, garment and wedge of gold contrary to instructions:
"And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones." Joshua 7:24-25
I notice immediately of course, that his children were stoned with him.
The innocents were killed and it was not the enemy that killed them. Not being accountable themselves due to age, they suffered along with their father, Achan for his mistake.
Old Testament? Certainly, but has God ever changed? Is God not the same yesterday, today and forever? Is God a respecter of persons?
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Mal 3:6
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17
"These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment." Prov 24:23
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34
Where are the exceptions that allow an under age child to go to God rather than to simply die in his flesh, for spiritually is he not already dead... unless his parents somehow are able to carry him on their salvation?
So you believe God kills children?
I can't deal with this right now.
Go thru the O.T. again...
See if you could understand it a different way.
This way:
Joshua did what he did.
How do we know God told him to do what he did?
I won't say more.
God is a God of love.
Either that, or Jesus lied.
Think about it.
God does not kill children.
Think of Noah.
Did God make such a mistake?
Did He not know man would sin?
He hated mankind so much He killed all mankind?
What about
John 3:16
Romans 14
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Is it me???
We're talking about mentally disabled persons.
You're quoting scripture that's for NORMAL people.
Did you read my verses?
Those are the ones to use, not what you have above.
You believe a mentally retarded person is going to hell because he couldn't be a DOER of the word?
There many more OT verses, but they are not going to change this. N.T.?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Children cannot believe?
God is not killing the children. Their parents do it as they do it to themselves...
Why do parents continue in sins that they already know will hurt their children? It hurts them here and now. For the children of unsaved parents there is no hereafter.
No lies on Jesus' part. What does the scripture say?
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6
How do unsaved parents bring up their children? Where is their love?
No, people kill children. They always have with the exceptions of those who tried to train them as they should.
Yes, God has a plan, but from what I understand of the plan, forget about eternal torment. Now perhaps you understand better why annihilation is for me a better way to go. Search the scriptures. There is an undying flame. God is the consuming fire, but He only consumes the twisted things that men have twisted. The children simply die and return to the earth from which they came. No more suffering for them beyond the suffering that men put upon them while they were here in their innocent vulnerable bodies of flesh.
I won't deny the possibility of what you desire for the children, but I cannot see it in the scripture.
Helen
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Job..No one said there wasn't children...and also @amadeus you mentioned children getting stone with the sins of the fathers...
What was mentioned earlier in the thread was children and babies and mentally handicapped going to HELL which is MUCH different than dying a natural death.
That is not apples to apples...that is apples to oranges!!
None of us clearly understand why many 'good' people die young...but we were not talking about THIS life...but the next life.
The waters have got muddied here in this discussion...
Now children pay for their parents sins?
Did you ever hear of imputation of sin?
SIN IS NOT IMPUTED TO OTHER PERSONS.
Yes. I think I'm yelling !!
We, each of us, are held responsible for our own sin, not for our parents sin.
You must be getting mixed up between being imputed with parents' sin and paying the CONSEQUENCES for that sin.
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As the Father Goes, so Goes the Family
What God is saying is that if a father misleads his family, the family will pay for it. Each will have to pay for their own sins but the father could have prevented many of the sins that his children and grandchildren would fall into had he led his family in obedience to the Law of God. The effects of this fatherly mismanagement would be felt by multiple generations because what has been sown will be reaped because God cannot be mocked (Gal 6:7). God is not punishing the children for their father’s sins but they are feeling the consequences and having to pay for them. That is what God means in Exodus 20 and 34. These verses deal with the descendants of those children who would follow their father’s example of disobedience but each one of us are ultimately responsible for our own sins and this is what Ezekiel 18 and Deuteronomy 24 is saying. The father’s disobedience to God’s commandments have a ripple effect that keep on going until some other father in his lineage breaks that cycle.
God Doesn’t Punish Innocent Children
We cannot read these verses by themselves. Anytime there is an unclear passage we must read other plain passages so that we can clarify the unclear. In the first place, those who are too young to know good from evil cannot be responsible for knowing and obeying God. Jeremiah addresses this question in chapter 16:10-13 “Why has the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? What is our iniquity? What is the sin that we have committed against the Lord our God?’ then you shall say to them: ‘Because your fathers have forsaken me, declares the Lord, and have gone after other gods and have served and worshiped them, and have forsaken me and have not kept my law, and because you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me. Therefore I will hurl you out of this land into a land that neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.’”
God says that those who disobey God cannot blame their fathers because sometimes they “have done worse than [their] fathers” did, therefore they will have to pay for their own iniquities because God says that “every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me.” There is a connect to the disobedience of the previous fathers though because they were worshiping other gods which are not gods at all and this is breaking all three of the first of the Ten Commandments.
Read more at What Does the Bible Say About the Sins of the Father?
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Are Children Responsible for the Sins of Parents?
Some passages plainly state that children are not held accountable by God for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20). But other passages indicate God visits the sins of the fathers on the children, even to the third and fourth generation (Exodus 20:5; 34: 6,7; Deuteronomy 5:9). How can these passages be harmonized?
Note the statement of Exodus 20:5,6: “For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”
How can God visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children? Does this teach Calvinistic original sin: that all babies are born depraved because they inherit guilt for the sin of Adam?
1. Guilt of sin and eternal condemnation cannot be inherited — Ezek. 18:20; 2 Cor. 5:10. We are guilty or not according to our own conduct: 1 John 3:4; James 1:14,15; Rom. 1:32; 2:6-11; 6:16,19; etc. I urge the reader to go to our Bible Instruction web site at Bible Instruction: Teaching of Religion, Doctrine, Theology of Christianity and study there our free article about Individual Responsibility and our article about Original Sin and Inherited Depravity. These articles show numerous passages that plainly teach that children do not inherit guilt and will not be punished eternally for the sins of their parents. No passage of Scripture should be viewed as teaching any such doctrine.
2. Ex. 20:5 does not mention Adam or Adam´s sin. It does not say we inherit sin from Adam. Ex. 20:5 says the sins of the parents are visited on the third or fourth generation. We are much further from Adam than that. So, whatever these passages teach, they cannot possibly be taken to teach that babies today are born guilty of Adam´s sin.
3. These verses could refer to physical consequences of sin in this life, rather than guilt and eternal consequences. “Iniquity” (Heb. AVON) is elsewhere translated “punishment” in ten instances. “Visiting” (Ex. 20:5) is translated “punishing” in NIV and in NKJV footnote. The specific examples cited are all examples of consequences in this life. This would mean that the children are not considered guilty of sin and would not be punished in hell, simply because their fathers committed sin, but that the children would suffer physical consequences in this life as a result of their parents´ sin. We often see children in this life who suffer because they have sinful parents.
4. But note specifically that the verse says: “third and fourth generation of those who hate me” (Ex. 20:5). This is more likely to be an expression of God´s longsuffering (see context of Ex. 34:6,7). If one generation hated God (referring here to idolatry — see the context), He would rebuke but not destroy the nation. If repentance occurred in a future generation, he would spare the nation. But if three or four generations in a row hated God, He would send the nation into captivity. This explanation again means that the punishment referred to is punishment in this life; and it refers to punishment upon future generations, not as individuals but as a nation. And even then the punishment occurs only if the future generations continue to hate God by practicing idolatry. This is exactly what we see happening in the succeeding generations of the nation of Israel. In any case, once again the passage does not teach that children are born guilty of their parents´ sins or that they will be punished in eternity for their parents´ sins. (See Clarke & Keil.)
On the other hand v6 shows that God will show mercy on those who love and obey Him. Note that love and obedience always go hand in hand in our service to God (see John 14:15; 1 John 5:3; etc.). So, if future generations would love and obey God, He would show them mercy, not punishment.
Source:
Does God Punish Children for Their Parents' Sins? Is Guilt Inherited from Adam?
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I agree ByGrace.Job..No one said there wasn't children...and also @amadeus you mentioned children getting stone with the sins of the fathers...
What was mentioned earlier in the thread was children and babies and mentally handicapped going to HELL which is MUCH different than dying a natural death.
That is not apples to apples...that is apples to oranges!!
None of us clearly understand why many 'good' people die young...but we were not talking about THIS life...but the next life.
The waters have got muddied here in this discussion...
But even what got muddled is not correct doctrine for mainline Christianity...
