What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Grailhunter]

I read your explanation for this awhile back in this thread. I didn't come up with anything. I have heard this taught.

After looking at various online articles, I don't think there is a firm consensus as to who they were. But one thing is clear. They did have access to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Not a hard study. First off the name means what it means. They were the mystics of
of Persia...Media....yes Media. The mystic branch of Zoroastrianism..into the sciences of the day and astrology and astronomy...that is why they knew what "the star" was about. Looking for that sign. At the time of Christ they were out of Alexandria, Egypt, the center of learning. Today they still call themselves Magi.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And we have to get a GotQuestions.org article in here somewhere.

What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)?

Question: "What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)?"

Answer: We assume that there were three wise men because of the three gifts that were given: gold, incense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11). However, the Bible does not say there were only three wise men. There could have been many more. Tradition says that there were three and that their names were Gaspar/Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar/Balthazar, but since the Bible does not say, we have no way of knowing whether the tradition is accurate.

It is a common misconception that the wise men visited Jesus at the stable on the night of His birth. In fact, the wise men came days, months, or possibly even years later. That is why Matthew 2:11 says the wise men visited and worshiped Jesus in a house, not at the stable.

We know that the magi were wise men from "the East," most likely Persia, or modern-day Iran. This means the wise men traveled 800 to 900 miles to see the Christ child. Most likely, the magi knew of the writings of the prophet Daniel, who in time past had been the chief of the court seers in Persia. Daniel 9:24-27 includes a prophecy which gives a timeline for the birth of the Messiah. Also, the magi may have been aware of the prophecy of Balaam (who was from the town of Pethor on the Euphrates River near Persia) in Numbers 24:17. Balaam's prophecy specifically mentions a “star coming out of Jacob.”

The wise men were guided to look for the King of the Jews by a miraculous stellar event, the “Star of Bethlehem,” which they called “His star” (Matthew 2:2). They came to Jerusalem and asked concerning the birth of Christ, and they were directed to Bethlehem (Matthew 2:4–8). They followed God’s guidance joyfully (Matthew 2:10). When they arrived in Bethlehem, they gave costly gifts to Jesus and worshiped Him. God warned them in a dream against returning to Herod, so, in defiance of the king, they left Judea by another route (Matthew 2:12).

So, the magi were men who 1) read and believed God's Word, 2) sought Jesus, 3) recognized the worth of Christ, 4) humbled themselves to worship Jesus, and 5) obeyed God rather than man. They were truly wise men!

Source: What does the Bible say about the three wise men (Magi)? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Not a hard study. First off the name means what it means. They were the mystics of
of Persia...Media....yes Media. The mystic branch of Zoroastrianism..into the sciences of the day and astrology and astronomy...that is why they knew what "the star" was about. Looking for that sign. At the time of Christ they were out of Alexandria, Egypt, the center of learning. Today they still call themselves Magi.

Hey, I'm giving you different info and a different perspective. Take it or leave it.

There's a lot of speculation about who the Magi were.

 

[Grailhunter]

Here's an explanation I just found.

The wise men who visited Jesus were not just aimlessly following a moving star. They knew in advance whose star it was, who they were going to visit, and that the purpose of their visit was to worship Him:

"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him." . . . And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:2, 11)​

It is highly unlikely that heathen, idolatrous astrologers would go to the great effort to travel hundreds of miles to give honor to the son of a Deity whom they did not worship. With this evidence, we can be quite certain that these magi were not pagan astrologers. Because of the Diaspora of the Hebrews in preceding centuries, it seems more likely that these men were descendants of Israelites or Jews exiled from the land of Israel, sent to recognize the birth of a scion of the line of David.

Source: Were the Magi Pagan Astrologers (Matthew 2:1-12)?​

That is the question, why was it important to them? Tradition remember trinket gifts...the Bible says it was a treasure. No reason to call Jews witches and sorcerers. Could be an interesting thread, like I said they are historical and the Bible was not the only place knew them to be witches and sorcerers. It is a Greek word...they knew them. And the whole witches thing is the reason they wanted to call them wise men in some translations

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That is the question, why was it important to them? Tradition remember trinket gifts...the Bible says it was a treasure. No reason to call Jews witches and sorcerers. Could be an interesting thread, like I said they are historical and the Bible was not the only place knew them to be witches and sorcerers. It is a Greek word...they knew them. And the whole witches thing is the reason they wanted to call them wise men in some translations

Maybe they had a different reason for calling them "Wise Men." Maybe the translators have it right!

 

[Grailhunter]

That is the question, why was it important to them? Tradition remember trinket gifts...the Bible says it was a treasure. No reason to call Jews witches and sorcerers. Could be an interesting thread, like I said they are historical and the Bible was not the only place knew them to be witches and sorcerers. It is a Greek word...they knew them.

Maybe they had a different reason for calling them "Wise Men." Maybe the translators have it right!

they called them wise men because they did not like the word Magi. They could not understand why witches were interested in Christ. They did the same thing Christ's mother's name...they did not like the meaning of Miriam.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

they called them wise men because they did not like the word Magi. They could not understand why witches were interested in Christ. They did the same thing Christ's mother's name...they did not like the meaning of Miriam.

Yeah, whatever. I guess you know these things, and others don't. It all depends on what you read, huh.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeah, whatever. I guess you know these things, and others don't. It all depends on what you read, huh.

The thing is that once you start looking at the scriptures at the language level this sort of thing comes up. When you combine the languages with the culture that also reveals some information...like Ruth did not uncover Boaz's feet....She dressed up to meet Boaz alone at night on the threshing floor and asked him to cover her with a corner of his coat. He praises her for picking him. This all falls under the customs of the Jews. In the Bible sometimes a males feet and female navels are referring to genitals.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The thing is that once you start looking at the scriptures at the language level this sort of thing comes up. When you combine the languages with the culture that also reveals some information...like Ruth did not uncover Boaz's feet....She dressed up to meet Boaz alone at night on the threshing floor and asked him to cover her with a corner of his coat. He praises her for picking him. This all falls under the customs of the Jews. In the Bible sometimes a males feet and female navels are referring to genitals.

I'm not against understanding the cultures of Bible times at all. I took several Bible classes in college and learned this type of historical info from reputable sources. But conjecture is another matter, and the internet is full of it.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm not against understanding the cultures of Bible times at all. I took several Bible classes in college and learned this type of historical info from reputable sources. But conjecture is another matter, and the internet is full of it.

The internet is the least reliable. I grew up with Jews and spend some money on some good books on the topic. The Jews are big on customs and a lot of them still know them.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The internet is the least reliable. I grew up with Jews and spend some money on some good books on the topic. The Jews are big on customs and a lot of them still know them.

Yeah, but it was their traditions, man's traditions, that got them in hot water with our Lord.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeah, but it was their traditions, man's traditions, that got them in hot water with our Lord.

For one I am talking what what they did and how to know that...right or wrong, that is two different religions. The coat or cloak thing was to afford the woman some dignity during the event. As I have said before, I do not believe we should bring Judaism into Christianity....but....there are things about biblical Christianity you cannot understand unless you know something about Judaism.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

For one I am talking what what they did and how to know that...right or wrong, that is two different religions. The coat or cloak thing was to afford the woman some dignity during the event. As I have said before, I do not believe we should bring Judaism into Christianity....but....there are things about biblical Christianity you cannot understand unless you know something about Judaism.

I agree with this. I learned a lot of historical and cultural info in those Bible classes that helped me understand the NT better.

 

[Giuliano]

Could you be tempted to start a thread on this topic? I think your observations are correct and this could be one of the most impactful discussions for this lack of consistent understanding. I struggle with this same problem with Paul. Oh... the things I hope he is correct about and the things I hope that he is wrong about!

Let me think about that. Where to start? Where to start? Perhaps with his so often writing as if Gentiles were ever under the Law of Moses?

He seems to write a lot about the Law of Moses. Why? If he was sent to Gentiles as he said, why even bother talking about the Law of Moses?

Today Christians still seem perplexed about it. What do you think? Would that be a good place to start?

 

[Giuliano]

So, you don't believe that Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

How many times does he claim to write by divine inspiration? Indeed how many books in the New Testament claim to be authored by divine inspiration?

The highest form of inspiration is attributed to the Torah's five books. The second highest is called "the Prophet." Jesus recognized the difference. Most Christians do not. Then there was the third category of "writings." The Jews say the Torah has no mistakes, the prophets may have a few here and there; and the writings may have even more errors. I would say most of the New Testament falls into the third category. Revelation seems distinctly "prophetic" to me and thus of a higher degree of inspiration than most of the other books of the New Testament.

 

[Giuliano]

On the topic of Paul
He was addressing the most complicated theological issues and concepts of the day. Don't see anyone else even coming close to the clarity of his explanations.
Following his letters, it is clear that his own understanding of Christianity was evolving.
If suddenly we found that what you and I wrote to each other was taken as scripture....we might have been more careful what we wrote. Much of what we have is letters to various churches. One sided communications.

The points you are saying about Peter...a thousand years is as a day...and...I say he did come, but not "with observation." God works in mysterious ways....the inerrant Word of God....Circle talk that I never learned. You will have to try that one on some one other than me. Most of the Apostles, those that walked with Him for three years, understood they were living in the last days....they are not even talking months or years....much less centuries and millenniums. A general understanding by all. 2000 years....I am betting on something caused that. Teacher....Apostles....If you are a teacher and most of your students fail to understand. They are not going to blame the students. I believe the students...the Apostles understood correctly....I believe something changed. Of course that is just my belief....Either way the time is ticking....There are many understandings that need explanation for young people...

Revelation...I have no problems with Revelation. But the things told in revelation...did not happen. If it happened in such away that no one could tell....it does not matter.
Not that Christ will not return.....He will return, when He wants, the way He wants.
Being that I am a person with a sense of humor...I hope I get to see people running up to Him with their Bibles complaining that He did not return the way it was written in the Bible.

Old Testament prophecies.....It is difficult to do, both ends of it. Prophecy and interpretation.. Prophecies of Christ....did something change between the testaments that made it so a human Messiah could not get the Job done. Good question. One thing is clear, the Jews were expecting a human warlord king, that would take on their oppressors. It does not matter what Jewish writings you find or where....even pottery...the theme....My daddy is going to beat your daddy up!

If they would have thought the Messiah was going to be a God...there probably would have been a whole book wrote on it...the largest in the Old Testament. Every prophet would have been on the mountain tops screaming it....It would have been the main focus of the prophetic books. Religious hymns proclaiming it...and again all over their pottery. A peaceful God! A peaceful God that would eventually invite the Pagans into their religion!!!! Don't think their reaction to that would have been good.

Christ had His hands full, He did not make it clear to everyone that He was a God....Son of God....He tried to keep most His miracles secret. He knew how the Jews would react to that. He tried to fulfill the prophecies where he could...got a donkey to ride into to Jerusalem. A lot was not told or explained because if it got out, His ministry would have been much shorter. Either the Jews or the Romans would get Him. Romans did not take it to kindly for people proclaiming themselves kings.

If you do not think the things in Revelation happened "shortly" as stated, I would say you have a huge problem with it.

If we can understand how he came for people then, maybe we can understand how he can come for us today. And if that was the end of an age then, the next question is if we are close to the end of another age and thus close to the "seventh" period of a thousand years.

 

[Giuliano]

No, I think it's the serpent who is tempting you--both you and GH--to disparage God's Holy Bible.

Romans 3:4--...Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged [by sinful men].

You are now comparing the Bible to God. For shame! The Bible was written by men and men make mistakes. If God had to wait for perfect people to do His work, it wouldn't get done.

It amazes me that Christians took Jewish books which the Jews openly state have errors in them and will even tell you what they are and then proclaimed these books "inerrant."

You say the serpent is tempting us? Maybe the serpent is tempting you to worship a book. You seem to think the whole universe might collapse and God would fall off His Throne if there was even one tiny error in the Bible. Good grief!

Then you quote Romans 3? Well then, let Paul be a liar! He said it. You can't believe it! What a fine jest!

 

[Giuliano]

Hey, I'm giving you different info and a different perspective. Take it or leave it.

There's a lot of speculation about who the Magi were.

I lean to the theory they were descendants of the sons of Abraham that he sent to the east.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you do not think the things in Revelation happened "shortly" as stated, I would say you have a huge problem with it.

If we can understand how he came for people then, maybe we can understand how he can come for us today. And if that was the end of an age then, the next question is if we are close to the end of another age and thus close to the "seventh" period of a thousand years.

I have no problem with Revelation and have heard the various interpretations of it....that is a broad spectrum from it occurring during 70 ad siege to flying saucers.

 

[Giuliano]

For one I am talking what what they did and how to know that...right or wrong, that is two different religions. The coat or cloak thing was to afford the woman some dignity during the event. As I have said before, I do not believe we should bring Judaism into Christianity....but....there are things about biblical Christianity you cannot understand unless you know something about Judaism.

I can think of one example.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

That would not include the books the Jews refer to as "writings." We need to know what the Jewish context was.