What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Jane_Doe22]

Interesting thought. My answer is no because the meaning is not changed.

However, I would add that legitimate Bible publishers are much too careful to let this happen because they know they're dealing with God's Word, not just another book.

Would you agree that the power of scripture comes from God Himself, and not from the mortal publishers / transcribers / scribes ?

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeah, well those don't sound too legitimate to me. You keep conflating men's stupidity and God's sovereignty.

I am saying we live in reality. It is like people think that Christ came down and certified one translation over another. And I will say, to larger conversation that not keeping it in the real is going to make Christianity look like a fairy tale to the younger people. Cavemen and dinosaurs are not in the bible, so science knows nothing. Your saying that to young people that have a smart phone in their hand that has 1000 times the computing power than the computers used to send man to the moon.

Part of our disagreement on this is what Oral Tradition was in the ancient world and what it was about. You will not believe me so you need to look at the methods they used to preserve the stories...all of them, OT and NT. It is more than reciting the story around a campfire. it is a religious ritual that was required....not hearsay.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Would you agree that the power of scripture comes from God Himself, and not from the mortal publishers / transcribers / scribes ?

I believe that the power of God's Word begins with His speaking or inspiring it through His Spirit, and continues with the Holy Spirit moving on those who translate it, and on those who read/hear it.... Speaking, writing, translating, and understanding God's Word all depend on the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I believe that the power of God's Word begins with His speaking or inspiring it through His Spirit, and continues with the Holy Spirit moving on those who translate it, and on those who read/hear it.... Speaking, writing, translating, and understanding God's Word all depend on the work of the Holy Spirit.

And it's not the work of the human publisher, transcriber, or scribe?
And that any errors they make don't stop God's work at all?

 

[Grailhunter]

Would you agree that the power of scripture comes from God Himself, and not from the mortal publishers / transcribers / scribes ?

God's power is everywhere, our power is not. All things are possible with the Lord. History...Generally speaking....OT and NT...when God wants something done, He assigns champions and they have always had their faults. Christ came because a human champion would not due.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And it's not the work of the human publisher, transcriber, or scribe?
And that any errors they make don't stop God's work at all?

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe that the power of God's Word begins with His speaking or inspiring it through His Spirit, and continues with the Holy Spirit moving on those who translate it, and on those who read/hear it.... Speaking, writing, translating, and understanding God's Word all depend on the work of the Holy Spirit.

And interpreting the scriptures correctly take the work of the Holy Spirit....That is why we have thousands of correct denominations?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

Amen!

It's important to remember that our salvation, our Truth, and everything good comes from God and is ultimately powered by Him. Not by anything else.
Though of course, God can & does use imperfect tools to work His wonders.

 

[Nancy]

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

His Word is living, breathing and if something is not in there...I would say it is because God did not want it in there...there is nothing missing in His Word.
I like the Job quote!

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.
Sovereign has a meaning. And it means different things to different people.....the word sovereign does not appear in the Bible. Taking modern terms and superimposing them on the scriptures is how scriptures are misinterpreted, and how they can be interpreted in so many ways. The term Trinity...original sin are good examples.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

It has been proven how many changes men have made in the scriptures to insert their beliefs. But I get the concept that whatever arrives in the Bible box, no matter the modifications, that God has approved it.....I do not believe that. Even though I respect other's beliefs in that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course, God uses fallible humans in this process, but our sovereign God sees to it that His will is accomplished ultimately.

Even Job understood this. He said to God, "I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

God has the power to do anything! But as you probably know, there are people that think that God's sovereign means He controls everything in the Calvin puppet show.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

God has the power to do anything! But as you probably know, there are people that think that God's sovereign means He controls everything in the Calvin puppet show.

No, I don't believe that about God's sovereignty. I believe it means that He WILL accomplish all that He plans to accomplish.

I really don't think the finite mind can completely understand this. I mean, how it works.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, I don't believe that about God's sovereignty. I believe it means that He WILL accomplish all that He plans to accomplish.

I really don't think the finite mind can completely understand this. I mean, how it works.

Never said you believe the puppet show....or I would not be talking to you...to any length.

God can do anything...we are in agreement.

 

[amadeus]

I am saying we live in reality.

I dislike this usage. The place we live is IN the world, but if what Jesus said is true we are NOT OF the world. We are OF reality, which is where we find Jesus when he prays/says these words:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,... " John 17:11

Until he had overcome it all, Jesus had also been IN the world, but when the last obstacle in his way was gone so was the temporal place for him.

Where we live for the moment, while we not yet overcomers in every respect as was Jesus, is a temporal place or even a non-real place which will be gone with every one unable to endure the fire of God to the end of the road.

 

[Grailhunter]

I dislike this usage. The place we live is IN the world, but if what Jesus said is true we are NOT OF the world. We are OF reality, which is where we find Jesus when he prays/says these words:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,... " John 17:11

Until he had overcome it all, Jesus had also been IN the world, but when the last obstacle in his way was gone so was the temporal place for him.

Where we live for the moment, while we not yet overcomers in every respect as was Jesus, is a temporal place or even a non-real place which will be gone with every one unable to endure the fire of God to the end of the road.

Reading this it sounded like I was disagreeing with you. So I am going to clarify....My concepts of reality is that God is real and this world is real. We have to try to understand both. But we cannot hide from the world. Reality is what we see, faith is what we do not see.
There is a point to be made. Christ was spiritual and physical. Some take what He said and hide from the world. It is typical, focus on a scripture and loose the meaning as a whole. Reason and intelligence gets a bad rap with Christians, when they worship the most intelligent being of all.

Christ had a mission in the world, He had a mission for His Apostles in the world. As Christians we have a mission in the world. If something did not happen in the world, we would be lost from that world of God. There is a spiritual side and aspect for sure. God gives us a talent...do we bury it....? we all know that was a disappointment. We are the light of the world....do we hide it under a bushel? The message is do not be of the world. But you fail Christ if you are not in the world. Like a church in a community where they only know the building is there.

We are the body of Christ, so as the church. I had a friend that said, "We are wisps in the wind"...he was a separatist. All things in the world evil....which is actually a Greek philosophy. Using Christ as a template for our lives....He stood up for what He believed in, in the world, was not afraid of startling them. Would you go to a tavern and buy them a round and talk to them about Christianity....are we too good? It looks like He did it, so much so that He was accused of being a drunkard.

Reality, reason, and intelligence should not be looked at, as non-Christian. What is the alternative? Christ did not hide from it and neither should we. A light to the world....hoping to live in the light of Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Reading this it sounded like I was disagreeing with you. So I am going to clarify....My concepts of reality is that God is real and this world is real. We have to try to understand both. But we cannot hide from the world. Reality is what we see, faith is what we do not see.
There is a point to be made. Christ was spiritual and physical. Some take what He said and hide from the world. It is typical, focus on a scripture and loose the meaning as a whole. Reason and intelligence gets a bad rap with Christians, when they worship the most intelligent being of all.

Christ had a mission in the world, He had a mission for His Apostles in the world. As Christians we have a mission in the world. If something did not happen in the world, we would be lost from that world of God. There is a spiritual side and aspect for sure. God gives us a talent...do we bury it....? we all know that was a disappointment. We are the light of the world....do we hide it under a bushel? The message is do not be of the world. But you fail Christ if you are not in the world. Like a church in a community where they only know the building is there.

We are the body of Christ, so as the church. I had a friend that said, "We are wisps in the wind"...he was separatist. All things in the world evil....which is actually a Greek philosophy. Using Christ as a template for our lives....He stood up for what He believed in, in the world, was not afraid of startling them. Would you go to a tavern and buy them a round and talk to them about Christianity....are we too good? It looks like He did it, so much so that He was accused of being a drunkard.

Reality, reason, and intelligence should not be looked at, as non-Christian. What is the alternative? Christ did not hide from it and neither should we. A light to the world....hoping to live in the light of Christ.

Good words, but I was really not disagreeing, nor do I now disagree, with the essentials of your words. It is simply, as I said, a disliking of the usage of the word, "reality", in that way. I try not to do it. For me I see this existence without God as more of an often unhappy fantasy world in which we dwell... but hope and means have been provided to get into and stay within the "real" world, the "reality", which is being with God all of the time.

People here on this forum, and I guess everywhere, use the word, "reality", and the word, "literal", speaking of that they apparently perceive with the five natural/carnal senses of taste, touch, vision, hearing and smell as if this were it. Probably for most people it is... but when these temporally perceived things are gone... as I believe they will be, so will be those people who really perceive them as the literal and as the reality. They would be, perhaps, the ones moving through the wide gate instead of through the strait and narrow gate.

The only real reality is the thing which we have seen and see [if we have and if we do] as through a glass darkly, not with the two physical orbs placed just below our forehead, but through the power of God in us by the Holy Spirit. At the end of time, the temporal will be gone and anyone without a vision from God will also be gone:

Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matt 24:35

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:10

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Using Christ as a template for our lives....He stood up for what He believed in, in the world, was not afraid of startling them. Would you go to a tavern and buy them a round and talk to them about Christianity....are we too good? It looks like He did it, so much so that He was accused of being a drunkard.

The bottom line is that do as the Holy Spirit leads. Of course, He will not lead us to do evil in God's eyes, so we don't have to be afraid that we're not doing the right thing. But there will always be those who judge, or rather, misjudge.

 

[Grailhunter]

Good words, but I was really not disagreeing, nor do I now disagree, with the essentials of your words. It is simply, as I said, a disliking of the usage of the word, "reality", in that way. I try not to do it. For me I see this existence without God as more of an often unhappy fantasy world in which we dwell... but hope and means have been provided to get into and stay within the "real" world, the "reality", which is being with God all of the time.

People here on this forum, and I guess everywhere, use the word, "reality", and the word, "literal", speaking of that they apparently perceive with the five natural/carnal senses of taste, touch, vision, hearing and smell as if this were it. Probably for most people it is... but when these temporally perceived things are gone... as I believe they will be, so will be those people who really perceive them as the literal and as the reality. They would be, perhaps, the ones moving through the wide gate instead of through the strait and narrow gate.

The only real reality is the thing which we have seen and see [if we have and if we do] as through a glass darkly, not with the two physical orbs placed just below our forehead, but through the power of God in us by the Holy Spirit. At the end of time, the temporal will be gone and anyone without a vision from God will also be gone:

Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matt 24:35

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:10

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

Amadeus, when you get going you say a mouthful. I was not disagreeing with you either, just adding a point, concerned with how you are thinking. That is why I edited my post.

*disliking of the usage of the word, "reality"
*People here on this forum, and I guess everywhere, use the word, "reality", and the word, "literal", speaking of that they apparently perceive with the five natural/carnal senses of taste, touch, vision, hearing and smell as if this were it.

Now this was one of the reasons I was getting into the world thing. The study of reality, a college course, the five senses and the limitations thereof. Can you study reality with only five senses? Physical reality, metaphysical reality, spiritual reality, and the reality of the cosmos. But the real is here, and you have to pay attention.

What you understand and what you do not understand and do not see….is going on all around us. While your feet are on this earth you have to deal with the real…if you do not…..”We are wisps in the wind.”…..lost his kids. Turned it all over to God…..and he lost his kids. The Holy Spirit can lead us and God can protect us, but you have to deal with the real, or bad things happen. So my point, if to you…is that you need to embrace reality….it leads to bad things if you do not. As we get older reality changes and I get that too…..

I have given this pep talk many times…in church….and in jails. “Why do you take drugs” I asked a young man in jail. “Because I hate reality, man!” “You better embrace reality because this is killing you.” I replied. God is good, good is great, pass the ammo!

*For me I see this existence without God as more of an often unhappy fantasy world in which we dwell..

Unhappiness can make reality very sour. I remember my grandpa use to say, “The world is going to hell in a hand basket!’ Reality changes around us as we get older. Sometimes you make decisions and later you find out that they were really really good or really really bad, and then you have to live with them. My decision to be a Christian and embrace most religions has brought me nothing but happiness. You say, Existence without God…..” I am surprised you say that, because I know you have seen and felt the Holy Spirit in high gear! Nothing like it! I enjoy Christians, they are the body of Christ.

I get into trouble sometimes because in Church I am like a kid in a candy store. Humor… sometimes I am direct, sometimes the humor is a little dry, prankster. Prayer Warrior does not get me sometimes. I am thinking of changing my avatar to a laughing clown with a bottle of whiskey in my hand and making my message at the bottom of the post, “I love Prayer Warrior!” Maybe she will get the point. Most of the time I am being playful…unless I am faced with evil…

*but when these temporally perceived things are gone..

I agree....I see the return of Christ a lot different than most. I enjoy the Michael Jackson thing, but I see it as a time of rejoicing for those that have walked with Him. The concept of the “walk” is big part of my perception of my religion…everyday…I walk with Him. He is there for all that believe and we can do the right thing because we remember He is with us. Watching what we are doing, if you really believe that, you have a tendency to do the right thing. We can have confidence in our salvation because He is there all the time….if we stumble He will help us up….whether we are hugging the Christians are battling evil, He is there. God bless.

 

[farouk]

The bottom line is that do as the Holy Spirit leads. Of course, He will not lead us to do evil in God's eyes, so we don't have to be afraid that we're not doing the right thing. But there will always be those who judge, or rather, misjudge.

He will also graciously always lead us according to Scripture...