Saint
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Seems like this took all the oxygen out of this discussion…be a child of the King and don’t worry about when you will be gathered. Trust in the LORD!
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horsecamp said:NO ------- A PERSON MIGHT ONLY HAVE ONE MORE HOUR of grace and their time of grace may end
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
Yes... God want's all to come right now, because they will benefit greatly if they recognizehorsecamp said:NO ------- A PERSON MIGHT ONLY HAVE ONE MORE HOUR of grace and their time of grace may end
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
No argument there, but doesn't the pre-trib rapture doctrine add to the book of the Revelation, by dividing the first resurrection into multiple resurrections "of the just?" And doesn't that come with a curse of having the plagues added to the offender? Only problem with that line of thought itself is that there have obviously been those who've taught the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I no longer believe in) that are now long dead. (This is why I'm inclined to believe that the curse applies to those who willfully alter the book for the sake of deception.) Any opinion?Retrobyter said:Shalom, ladies and gentlemen.
IF there is going to be a pretribulational rapture, then ALL who are believers will be slated to be raptured, because it is not UP TO US when we will be raptured. Therefore, IF there is a pretribulational rapture, ALL believers will be raptured.
HOWEVER, if there is NOT going to be a pretribulational rapture, then NO ONE who are believers will be raptured then! It's that simple. Furthermore, the same can be said for a posttribulational rapture and a pre-Wrath rapture. When GOD decides that He's sending His Son and His messengers to earth to gather His people, all of His people will be gathered WHEN GOD SAYS! It's not UP TO US!
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PLEASE be careful not to make bold, authoritative statements that cannot be supported by Scripture.
LOL! I have LOTS of opinions; that's why I try to stick to the Bible so often!Michael V Pardo said:No argument there, but doesn't the pre-trib rapture doctrine add to the book of the Revelation, by dividing the first resurrection into multiple resurrections "of the just?" And doesn't that come with a curse of having the plagues added to the offender? Only problem with that line of thought itself is that there have obviously been those who've taught the pre-trib rapture doctrine (which I no longer believe in) that are now long dead. (This is why I'm inclined to believe that the curse applies to those who willfully alter the book for the sake of deception.) Any opinion?
terry said:Oliver, the first half of Tribulation is not wrath, thusly no need for a rapture at that point. If you are a pre-wrather does not make you a pre-tribber. Contending this wrat as all of tribulation is an error. Sometimes I get the feeling that people use the term pre-wrath to mean for certain pre-trib, but when that does not happen they can then use pre-wrath as meaning mid-trib to keep themsleves justified... it does not. Express your self consicely and if you mean pre-trib say pre-trib... if you mean mid-trib say mid-trib, if you are un-ure...say you are un-sure...but tend to believe this or tend to believe that. These uses of injecting words not in scripture to define events so that if it happens either here or there, now or then... AND then claiming you knew it and therefore you was right, is not the act of rightly decerning the Word of God.
MID-Tribulation, PRE-Wrath Rapture... it actually...in my Belief takes place real soon after mid-point of Tribulation, after the Abomination of Desolation is committed, if not..... I am Wrong!
I am more concerned about me not trying than I am about me being wrong.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.aspen2 said:Perhaps people who miss the rapture should follow Solomon's advice and eat, drink and be merry......
Or, perhaps people who build entire doctrines around one piece of scripture about meeting Jesus in the air should stop frightening others about being left behind
And that Ezekiel 9 Scripture has not yet... happened, ever. It's one of the OT Scriptures where Peter was pulling from about God's judgment for the end of this world beginning with His Church (1 Peter 4:17).Saint said:No If you are sealed by the Spirit of God you are not appointed to wrath...have you ever studied Eze 9; it is not necessary for you to be transported from this world to be protected from the Wrath of God!
And the LORD said to him, "Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." And to the others he said in my hearing, "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the house.
(Eze 9:4-6 ESV)
Amen to that. I think that I'm just getting a little tired of being told to repent of believing what the scripture actually says.Retrobyter said:We just need to be careful when we point a finger at pretribbers to remember there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves!
Amen to your post to MichaelMichael V Pardo said:Amen to that. I think that I'm just getting a little tired of being told to repent of believing what the scripture actually says.
Good thing to do: look at the CONTEXT...but even better, understand the context. What is this "salvation" Paul is talking about?kaoticprofit said:Look at the context of the passage and notice. Not being appointed to wrath is attributed to salvation! NOT A RAPTURE!
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Terry, where does John first mention wrath? It is at the 6th seal. Where is that in relation to the 70th week of Daniel? It is BEFORE the 70th week begins. The entire 70th week is the wrath of God. The first trumpet judgment is the beginning of His wrath. It is the beginning of the destruction of the earth. So in truth, prewrath and pretrib are the same. Both mean the rapture will take place before His wrath begins, and that will be before the 70th week begins.terry said:Oliver, the first half of Tribulation is not wrath, thusly no need for a rapture at that point. If you are a pre-wrather does not make you a pre-tribber. Contending this wrat as all of tribulation is an error. Sometimes I get the feeling that people use the term pre-wrath to mean for certain pre-trib, but when that does not happen they can then use pre-wrath as meaning mid-trib to keep themsleves justified... it does not. Express your self consicely and if you mean pre-trib say pre-trib... if you mean mid-trib say mid-trib, if you are un-ure...say you are un-sure...but tend to believe this or tend to believe that. These uses of injecting words not in scripture to define events so that if it happens either here or there, now or then... AND then claiming you knew it and therefore you was right, is not the act of rightly decerning the Word of God.
MID-Tribulation, PRE-Wrath Rapture... it actually...in my Belief takes place real soon after mid-point of Tribulation, after the Abomination of Desolation is committed, if not..... I am Wrong!
I am more concerned about me not trying than I am about me being wrong.
The days of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus will begin at the abomination event at the midpoint of the week. It will be a terrible time, as Satan is starting His killing machine via the mark and the two Beasts. But at the time the killing reaches its peak, say two years or so into the last half, God will pour out HIS wrath via the vials. So in truth, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath will be felt on earth at the same time. They cannot be separated considering timing. The trumpet judgments will come in the first half, and they too are a part of God's wrath. So any part of the 70th week will be a part of God's wrath, and the Bride will not be here.Trekson said:Hi Oliver, Your words: "The great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 is the wrath of God on the world."
The great trib (satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17) and the wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) and the wrath of God (vials) are separate events.
Your words: "There can be no purpose in sending the church into the great tribulation."
Yes, there is a purpose and I will post on it shortly.
Hi Rex, Your words: "not to mention the Jews that will be evangelizing the world after the new temple disappointment"
There is nothing in scripture that speaks of the 144,000 doing any witnessing or evangelizing whatsoever. They are most likely part of the righteous remnant that go into hiding for 42 months per Rev. 12:14.
Sorry Tom, but you are as far from truth as East is from the West. Paul's 1 Thes. 4:17 rapture comes at least 7 years before Jesus comes on the white horse. lamadBrothertom said:The Rapture will occur after the Tribulation upon the Return of the Lord Jesus , Gathering His Church.
The Coming of the Son of Man
“Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
He does not return twice, nor is it in the Secret Places....He returns once...& it is called the 2nd Coming...His first one was to be Crucified & to Redeem the World.
This Fly-Away before the Trouble is Biblical Fantasy.....& a flat out lie...& it will not happen. It boils down to Dogma..the root of all cultism....Belief that forms in your mind...not your heart, formed by the Indwelling Holy Spirit.
This heresy often follows the OSAS crowd,..[ Baptists/Pentecostal] that believe that the Tribulation is Wrath, not a Trial. The problem is that they will be totally unprepared with resolve & faith when the Tribulation does fall upon us, & they will not endure unto the end....IF they are even born again to begin with.
In answer to the question "What happens if somebody misses the Rapture? Well, Biblically, & Truthfully, they will be SOL...[ LOL ] shame on me....
Sorry...but grow up...& get off of this baby Pablum.
When you base something on a false interpretation, then all is wrong. Rev. 12:5 is not about the rapture of the church; it is about the birth of Jesus, and how the dragon tried to kill Him when He was a baby. The real rapture, Paul's rapture, takes place just before the 6th seal, and then John saw the Bride in heaven in chapter 7. This is over 3 1/2 years before 12:6afaithfulone4u said:Just as soon as the body of Christ is caught up to God's throne in heaven in Rev. 12:5, then the dragon is thrown down to earth for 3-1/2 yrs
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV
Rev 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
KJV
Many believe this to be the birth of Jesus, but we see that just as soon as the body of Christ 144,000 are birthed in the image of Christ full term, the devil is thrown down for 3-1/2 yrs.
After the body is CAUGHT UP, there will still be martyr's
Rev 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
KJV
ha ha! Good luck showing the error of PLAIN TRUTH! You will find it impossible!veteran said:I'm glad Pre-tribbers here reveal being tired of having the finger pointed at the false doctrine they hold to. It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it. If they think they have a right to push the lie still, then those of us like myself have the right to show them their error still.
Easy.iamlamad said:ha ha! Good luck showing the error of PLAIN TRUTH! You will find it impossible!
Somehow, you still managed to miss my point about finger-pointing. For all that is wrong with the pretribulational rapture position, what's RIGHT with anyone else's view?! Those who say, "I have the right to show them their error," need to LISTEN to what they are saying and judge THEMSELVES about their OWN belief-system!veteran said:I'm glad Pre-tribbers here reveal being tired of having the finger pointed at the false doctrine they hold to. It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it. If they think they have a right to push the lie still, then those of us like myself have the right to show them their error still.
Shalom, brother,Retrobyter said:Shalom, veteran.
Somehow, you still managed to miss my point about finger-pointing. For all that is wrong with the pretribulational rapture position, what's RIGHT with anyone else's view?! Those who say, "I have the right to show them their error," need to LISTEN to what they are saying and judge THEMSELVES about their OWN belief-system!
We ALL think we've got the truth, but do we really? The REAL TRUTH is that NO ONE has it ALL together! "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar!" (Romans 4:3.) Why do you think Pilate asked Yeshua`, "What is truth?" The emphasis was not on "what" or on "truth" but on "IS!" Pilate as a government official recognized that what may be "truth" to one person may not be "truth" to another. Every man has his own VERSION of the "truth." He KNEW that truth, for most people, is SUBJECTIVE and arbitrary. He didn't yet know (if he EVER did) that Yeshua` was God's Son! As the Son of God, Yeshua` could speak to him in ABSOLUTES and His message was OBJECTIVE, applying to all!
Rather than point at someone and say, "That's wrong," we need to say, "Based on God's Word, I believe that is wrong, and here's why: ...," admitting that WE TOO may also be wrong in what we conclude.
ONLY when we speak directly from God's Word (and even THAT from a proper interpretation of God's Word) can we be speaking the TRUTH. Whenever we begin to explain, we begin to interject human reasoning into the mix, and humans ... make ... mistakes! Even those with the best intentions still have errors entwined within our UNDERSTANDING of the "truth!"
Furthermore, you said, "It's a sign that they've been well warned about it even though they still choose to believe in it." Well, here, it's a matter of THE LACK OF OPTIONS! When one's error is pointed out, what does he have with which to replace it? It may not be that he WANTS to adhere to his error but that, for lack of options, he has nothing else to believe! Often, a particular view has been so drilled into a person's mind that, when they read a particular Scripture that has been used to support the old idea in the past, they will still see the old idea when they read the Scripture again! It takes time and re-education to see that the Scripture could mean something else! It takes time and exposure to other positions for a person to discard an old position for a new! "Rome wasn't built in a day!" Most people are SHEEP and follow a leader. It takes a GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY to overcome the "sheep mentality" and strike out on their own to opt for a new position! Most don't even know where to begin! How does one begin such a journey?
Don't be so harsh. Be sympathetic and patient. One can continue to point to why he FEELS that the other person is making an error, but the patient person will provide OPTIONS.