What The Great Tribulation Really Is

[Davy]

I know all those Bible prophesies very well. Jesus coming in, or sending fire; are all prophesies about His Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal. Prophesies like 2 Peter 3:7 do not say He will Return on the day fire will destroy His enemies. Psalms 18:7-15

I showed where that flaming fire in conjunction with the day of His coming are linked. You are just still denying those Scriptures. So your disagreement is not with me, it is with the actual written Scripture.

Isa 66:15-16
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
KJV

There's more that goes with that above Isaiah 66 passage to show it is... about the day of Christ's 2nd coming when that fire will happen...

Isa 66:17-21
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see My glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard My fame, neither have seen My glory; and they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
KJV

Not only is that about the day of Christ's coming with God's consuming fire event, it is also about Christ gathering His Church to the holy lands, and making them priests (Revelation 5:9-10).

 

[Jay Ross]

You are confusing the Gog-Magog Ezekiel 38 event that is to occur on the day of Christ's return, which is the Armageddon on the final 7th Vial of Rev.16, with a similar event of destruction of Satan and his hosts at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20.

In the Ezekiel 38 event, we are given the nation alignment that is to come upon against the deceived nation of Israel on the last day of this world. That alignment is almost complete today, Turkey (old Togarmah) being the only one mentioned not yet in the alignment against Israel.

In the Rev.20:8-9 event we are not shown which nations come upon the "camp of the saints" after Christ's 1,000 year reign.

You have failed to notice that the Rev.20 Gog event is a coming up against Christ's Church, and not upon Israel, so that is clearly a different time marker.

So those are actually 2 separate events, in 2 different times, a siege upon 2 different groups of people.

My poor Davy, you are very confused in your understanding of God's Scriptures and the order in which the prophecies concerning the ET Events will occur. You are also very confused about what I had posted and have responded by presenting a very different picture of what I had posted and then go on to base your criticism on your perceived flawed picture of what I had posted.

The Revelation 16 chapter presents the picture of the Bowl Judgements beginning with the last Bowl Judgement and walking backwards, as it were, in time as it presents the rest of the Bowl judgements such that if we consider the history markers mentioned in 16:17-21 we would realise that this Bowl Judgement was predominately player out during the 20th century. That the 16:12-16 verses over arches the 7th Bowl Judgement with the event of the three foul frog like spirits coming to do the bidding of the Dragon, the beast and the false prophet working signs and wonders for all of the world to see, so as to begin drawing all of the kings of the nations to assemble their armies at Armageddon for one last assault against God's Sanctuary which will occur in our near future and mark the beginning of the Millennium Age.

I then went on to state that @Keraz was confusing the Gog/Magog army event which is at the end of the Millennium Age, with the Armageddon event when we will see the Isaiah 24:21-22 judgements against the heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, and the kings of the earth event happening before both are assembled and locked up in the Pit/Bottomless Pit from which they will all rise up from, after their imprisonment of 1,000 years when the pit is unlocked for the little while period at the end of the Millennium Age, and we see the majority of the Book of Revelation Events occurring, which are attributed to the locked up, kings of the earth, the beast, the False prophet and Satan occurring during this short period of time.

@Keraz's understanding that a MCE will occur to "melt the earth" at this time is his way of making sense of the ET prophecies and he embellishes his fanciful theory by claiming that all of the "Christian Saints" will be saved from that destruction, just like the Pre-trib theory, by being whisked away to the Land of Canaan where they will be safe from the MCE when it occurs, now of which is found recorded in the scriptures.

Your disagreement is not with me but is with @Keraz and your inability to be able to understand what is written.

Shalom

 

[Timtofly]

confusing the Gog/Magog army event which is at the end of the Millennium Age, with the Armageddon event when we will see the Isaiah 24:21-22 judgements against the heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, and the kings of the earth event happening before both are assembled and locked up in the Pit/Bottomless Pit from which they will all rise up from, after their imprisonment of 1,000 years when the pit is unlocked for the little while period at the end of the Millennium Age, and we see the majority of the Book of Revelation Events occurring, which are attributed to the locked up, kings of the earth, the beast, the False prophet and Satan occurring during this short period of time.

Revelation 19 is still the battle of Armageddon event. It is this view:

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The beast and false prophet were the first to go into the lake of fire even at the beginning of the 1000 years. Their time is over. Then only Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Here is the actual wine press with 2 sickles:
Revelation 14:14-20

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The harvest of the 2 sickles either happens before the Second Coming week starts, on Saturday prior. Or it is the same event that happens after the 7 vials as if the vials never happened. Chapters 13-16 are not in chronological order, because they may be the same event based on how the Second Coming week plays out. The week can remain whole, then the wine press of 2 sickles. The week is split in half, the 7 vials and battle of Armageddon. But in any event all will be harvested, no one left. This reign of sin and death because of sin is over.

Only those beheaded or any one that God raises from the dead, who are not part of the body of Christ, will live as normal humans having normal babies. They form normal nations over the last 1000 years. Death happens, but only as one being cursed. Crime and sin will be held at minimums, and it will be a works based existence according to God's law. There are OT prophecies about this time. All those that some think refer to the New Heavens and Earth, are about the last 1000 years on earth.

The house of Jacob and Abraham will get back their lost years as a true National entity, because of sin and Satan. It is not about the church. The church was gathered for the New Jerusalem. Whether Paradise can move like the New Jerusalem is a mystery. Paradise, the Garden of Eden was God's original temple, where God did meet with the sons of God. Adam was the head. All in Adam were predestined to live and serve God in this created temple. The whole command to Adam was represented in one act, eating from one tree.

The Atonement restored all of Adam back into the Garden. But it was not universal. It was completed by free will and choice, by any of Adam's descendants who accepted. It was by Faith, because Adam by Faith, a free will choice, did not to eat. Except that Adam did disobey. Now we have a chance to obey, and trust God by Faith.

But the church and Paradise was completed at the start of the Second Coming week. That was the celebration week. It would start the 1000 years of almost perfection, yet populated by the last of Adam's fallen offspring. That is the only means. Reproduction of the restored sons of God will be put on hold until the next reality. Jesus claimed until then, we are like the angels who do not have reproductive capabilities.

 

[Keraz]

Timtofly, Jay Ross and Davy; you are all confused and making wild guesses as to what God has planned for our future.
I doubt if there is anything I can say to help, as all seem set in your beliefs.
But here is a scripturally supported and logical scenario for the end times:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31
The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and His resurrected saints.

The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21
The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation chapters 20:11-15 & 21:1-7

 

[Timtofly]

Those who go past the date of the end, are those listening to Satan. The time is short, not long. The Day of the Lord, the Lord's Day, is only about the exchange of days and millenniums. It has to do with the 8 Lord's Days of earth, and the 8000 years of time on earth. It is only mentioned in those terms, not the break down of hours.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Timtofly, Jay Ross and Davy; you are all confused ...
Soon to happen: ... a CME sunstrike ...

A CME, A CME, A CME ... like a broken record, or a confused parrot, over and over again.

But Keraz isn't "CONFUSED". His problem is that denial* should be a RIVER, but for him it's a way of life.

* da Nile, as in the Nile river.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths.​

ONLY a nuclear weapon can create this effect.
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

ONLY a nuclear weapon can create this effect.

The radiation from a nuke takes time to damage a human.
A nuke does not affect all of the world
A nuke cannot produce the cosmic effects prophesied.
If you think God will allow a nuke in His holy Land, in any of that area from the Nile to the Euphrates; then you are dead wrong.

The prophecy in Zechariah 14:12 refers to those who refuse to come to Jerusalem and worship God, After Jesus Returns and during the Millennium.
We shall soon see who is right about what God will use on His great and terrible Day of wrath.

 

[Bobby Jo]

A nuke does not affect all of the world ...

REALLY?!? Are you UNAWARE that if every nuclear weapon were used, it would destroy mankind? Thus:

Matt. 24:22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.​

-- where the weapons that WILL BE USED will create so much dust and ash in the air, that we'll only have two hours of daylight. And MAN will withhold further launches in fear that by destroying his "enemies", that he would destroy himself.


But da Nile is your favorite location, and you apparently VISIT OFTEN.
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

REALLY?!? Are you UNAWARE that if every nuclear weapon were used, it would destroy mankind? Thus:

You are so fixated on nukeing everything. An American trait, obviously! The ultimate solution!
You know what? You people in the Northern hemisphere, where just about all the nukes are; could obliterate yourselves and we in the Southern would hardly be affected. Even the dust doesn't cross the equatorial divide.
Bring it on!

 

[Timtofly]

You are so fixated on nukeing everything. An American trait, obviously! The ultimate solution!
You know what? You people in the Northern hemisphere, where just about all the nukes are; could obliterate yourselves and we in the Southern would hardly be affected. Even the dust doesn't cross the equatorial divide.
Bring it on!

Between seal 6 and 7, after the change in the structure of the continents, all people will be on one central continent. Revelation 7:1

"After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree."

There is going to be no sense of motion or movement until after the 7th seal. Then it may seem like a very long period, before things start back up. The geography just changed drastically. Humanity is given the chance to re-orientate themselves. It will be like time stands still, but in reality time keeps on going.

 

[Bobby Jo]

You are so fixated on ...

... Scripture, History, and technology, -- which all agree as to FUTURE EVENTS.


How's your boat? You should take good care of it as you spend so much time on it.
Bobby Jo

 

[Davy]

My poor Davy, you are very confused in your understanding of God's Scriptures and the order in which the prophecies concerning the ET Events will occur. You are also very confused about what I had posted and have responded by presenting a very different picture of what I had posted and then go on to base your criticism on your perceived flawed picture of what I had posted.

That's funny. How long did you stay up at night thinking of that rebuttal?

Jay, your post presenting ideas that do not align with the Scriptures...

You said:
"First of all, Zechariah 14 is about the end of the 2,300 years of the Gentile Kings and their armies trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts, when God will cause the gentile armies, of this present time period, to assemble at Armageddon to be judged."

That is indeed true. The battle of Armageddon happens on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns at the end of this present world, but prior to His 1,000 years reign.

You said:
"The reference to a "plague" in Zech 14:12 give the wrong image of what s going to happen at Armageddon when compared with another image of the judgement of the kings of the earth at the same time that the judgement of the rebellious heavenly hosts occurs in heaven as the brushed stroked picture occur of this same event as described in Isa 24:21-22. In this account there is no mention of Christ returning as it is a fleeting visitation of judgement from heaven by Christ."

That doesn't align with the Scripture. That is... the time of Christ's 2nd coming, which is when He will subdue those kings. The idea there in Isaiah 24 of their being gathered as prisoners are gathered in the pit is about their being locked with Satan in his pit prison all during Christ's future 1,000 years reign. Their being visited after many days represents that.

You said:
"However, in Revelation 19:11-15, we can assume that this short passage is a description of the judgement of the nations at Armageddon. The Revelation 19:19-21 reference that you said was a description of the Armageddon event is actually an account of the Gog-Magog battle that sweeps the whole earth that occurs a little over 1,000 years later."

That is where you clearly made an error in announcing your belief that the Gog-Magog battle of Ezekiel 38 occurs at a different time than Armageddon. And that is your idea I responded to. The Gog-Magog battle in Ezekiel 38 is NOT the Gog-Magog event that occurs after Christ's 1,000 years reign. And I showed you the differences why from Scripture:

1. Ezekiel 38-39 Gog-Magog event = Armageddon, day of Christ's 2nd coming. That great army that comes out of the northern quarters comes upon the land of Israel, meaning today's 'unbelievers' of the nations of Israel, the Jews.

2. Revelation 20 Gog-Magog event = after Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect. This Gog-Magog army of the nations that Satan leads one final time comes upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city", which is put for Christ's Church, meaning BELIEVERS ON JESUS OF NAZARETH at Jerusalem.

So there's a clear difference, but men's doctrines as usual create tethers that limit one's understanding, and oh how men love them.

 

[Jay Ross]

That is where you clearly made an error in announcing your belief that the Gog-Magog battle of Ezekiel 38 occurs at a different time than Armageddon. And that is your idea I responded to. The Gog-Magog battle in Ezekiel 38 is NOT the Gog-Magog event that occurs after Christ's 1,000 years reign. And I showed you the differences why from Scripture:

1. Ezekiel 38-39 Gog-Magog event = Armageddon, day of Christ's 2nd coming. That great army that comes out of the northern quarters comes upon the land of Israel, meaning today's 'unbelievers' of the nations of Israel, the Jews.

2. Revelation 20 Gog-Magog event = after Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect. This Gog-Magog army of the nations that Satan leads one final time comes upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city", which is put for Christ's Church, meaning BELIEVERS ON JESUS OF NAZARETH at Jerusalem.

So there's a clear difference, but men's doctrines as usual create tethers that limit one's understanding, and oh how men love them.

Oh Davy, you have a very wrong understanding of the timeline of the events and have mixed up the references to which events occur when.

Now since you cannot grasp what it is that I am stating, I am afraid that your lack of understanding forces me to not continue this conversation with you.

Have a good day then.

 

[Davy]

Timtofly, Jay Ross and Davy; you are all confused and making wild guesses as to what God has planned for our future.
I doubt if there is anything I can say to help, as all seem set in your beliefs.

That's just your opinion brother.

But here is a scripturally supported and logical scenario for the end times:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

God's consuming fire on the "day of the Lord" will be a world-wide event, not just an event happening in the middle east. In 2 Peter 3 where Apostle Peter taught about God's consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off the earth, it is given within the context of God's previous destruction of the earth's surface with a flood. Was the flood of Noah's day a world-wide flood? God's Word says so, but there's some who hold to it being a local area flood and thus going against the Scripture. At the end of Hebrews 12 we are given another view of a previous destruction on the earth by a shaking, comparing it to another shaking destruction again with God as a consuming fire. The consuming fire source is not the sun, it is from God Himself, and God is not... the sun. The sun in our solar system is only a star, a material celestial body.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

The event of wrath upon the wicked is also shown on the 7th Trumpet (Revelation 11:15-18), and on the 7th Vial (Revelation 16:17 & 21).

As I've been saying elsewhere, Jesus only gave 7 Main Signs of the end in His Olivet discourse, and they are simply shown in more detail in His Book of Revelation. Thus His Revelation is still only about the 7 Main Signs of the end, the last Sign being the event of His 2nd coming on the last day of this world to gather His saints and the pouring out of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked.

Your creation of a 20 year gap just because of how the Revelation events were written down by Apostle John is only going to get you further away from the true timeline of the endtime events it speaks of.

 

[Davy]

Oh Davy, you have a very wrong understanding of the timeline of the events and have mixed up the references to which events occur when.

Now since you cannot grasp what it is that I am stating, I am afraid that your lack of understanding forces me to not continue this conversation with you.

Have a good day then.

Well, as usual, you just made up excuses to glide over the Scripture evidence I presented. And you think you were mocking me? How deluded you are.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, as usual, you just made up excuses to glide over the Scripture evidence I presented. And you think you were mocking me? How deluded you are.

No Davy, I did not simply glide over the Scripture evidence that you had presented, as I have a very good handle on what is prophesied to happen during the End Times. Now since you cannot see what I see, then any further conversation becomes pointless as you will not agree to disagree and want to lord your opinions over what I understand the evidence, that you have presented, is actually telling us.

Now you can feel good about yourself with your putdown, that you have mocked me and my ability to reason, with, but it does not change the prophetic outcomes described in those passages.

Have a good day then.

 

[Davy]

No Davy, I did not simply glide over the Scripture evidence that you had presented, as I have a very good handle on what is prophesied to happen during the End Times. Now since you cannot see what I see, then any further conversation becomes pointless as you will not agree to disagree and want to lord your opinions over what I understand the evidence, that you have presented, is actually telling us.

Now you can feel good about yourself with your putdown, that you have mocked me and my ability to reason, with, but it does not change the prophetic outcomes described in those passages.

Have a good day then.

Still gliding.

 

[Jay Ross]

Still gliding.

Good Night, I need a rest from your badgering.