Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The fire is what burns up the tares, in the wheat and tares harvest. The part of the Thunderings, that John wrote, but had to seal until this time.
What The Great Tribulation Really Is
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Bobby Jo
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Either EVERYONE's a LIAR, -- Walvoord, who cited Young; and Young who cited both Keil and Kiefoth --, or YOU are the liar.
But after multiple attempts to DISCUSS and EVALUATE what Scripture says, I leave you to your own immaturity. -- IGNORED.
Bobby Jo
Having trouble with your eyeglasses again? I never mentioned 1 Thess.1.
I quoted 2 Thess.1:7-9 about Christ's coming "in flaming fire taking vengeance" upon the wicked, same subject as Isaiah 29:5-7.
What I quoted refutes your false statement that Jesus' 2nd coming doesn't involve God's consuming fire event.
Isa 66:15-16
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
KJV
There is yet another Scripture example of Christ's return accompanying a destroying fire!
But you reject the Scripture to serve your astronomical theory.
God is NOT the sun. The ancient pagans believed that, and they were wrong. They even worshiped the sun because of it. The occult fraternities today still teach that ludicrous Gnostic idea of sun worship, treating the sun as a god. GOD as a consuming fire is about a Spiritual Fire for like Apostle John said God is a Spirit, not a literal fleshy material world fire that you have put your belief in.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
@Dave Watchman said:
The 'indefinite' aspect to the words indicates to me that it's intending that the prophecy is not declared an actual week of 7 days, but is allowed to be a week of 7 years. This is the understanding and interpretation of the KJV translators and many others.
I found your other thread from 2012.
Those were some smart guys you took on.
Intellectuals.
But even reading those 20 pages, I still can't figure out what you are talking about.
...
Spooky stuff.
Peaceful Sabbath
The 'indefinite' aspect to the words indicates to me that it's intending that the prophecy is not declared an actual week of 7 days, but is allowed to be a week of 7 years. This is the understanding and interpretation of the KJV translators and many others.
@Bobby Jo said:
However, none of your responses refute the Masculine text as cited by Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (as documented per Walvoord), and your "1,000s" are conspicuously absent. So for now all I can suggest is that the experts are unable to unravel the mystery of this Chapter. Does this suggest there is no answer? God forbid. There IS an answer, and both Scripture and history confirm the true fulfillment. - (from the other forum).
That's the best thing I heard you say.'...as Young points out, the word ˜sevens is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word 'sevens' is employed in an unusual sense.
'...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word sevens does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.'
John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
Furthermore Young proceeded to observe that this Masculine text is only found in the 9th Chapter of Daniel, and the Feminine is used in the 10th Chapter and all other citations in Scripture.'...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word sevens does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.'
John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
However, none of your responses refute the Masculine text as cited by Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (as documented per Walvoord), and your "1,000s" are conspicuously absent. So for now all I can suggest is that the experts are unable to unravel the mystery of this Chapter. Does this suggest there is no answer? God forbid. There IS an answer, and both Scripture and history confirm the true fulfillment. - (from the other forum).
I found your other thread from 2012.
Those were some smart guys you took on.
Intellectuals.
But even reading those 20 pages, I still can't figure out what you are talking about.
...
Spooky stuff.
Peaceful Sabbath
Hi DW,
It's quite simple. If we start with 9:2, we should perceive that Daniel used Solomon Wisdom, biyn (-- from 1 Kings 3, which juxtaposes the simple shama, versus the Solomon Wisdom biyn). Thus Daniel "PERCEIVED" (Solomon BIYN) in the Books, the number of YEARS. And so we find the Prophetic Psalms premise as presented by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms"*, in which we find the "going forth of the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem" for Psalms 24, -- which sits on the FOUNDATIONAL 23rd Psalm, which most people can cite in it's entirety with a few prompts.
And where Walvoord cited Young, who in turn cited Keil & Kliefoth regarding the INCONCISE Masculine Gender text, versus the CONCISE Feminine Gender text, -- using an analogy would be like citing a "VEHICLE", versus a CAR, or TRUCK, or MOTORCYCLE, or VAN, etc. Which leave us to conclude that some of the seventy durations are YEARS, and at least one is a WEEK of years.
Thus the seventy began in 1924 (see Psalms 24); then seven years later David Ben Gurion rose to political prominence (and subsequently became the FATHER of the State of Israel, serving TWO separate Terms as Prime Minister); then another sixty-two YEARS until the end comes with a FLOOD; and then subsequent to the sixty-nine total years (actually some couple of years subsequent), Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated; and immediately subsequent to the sixty-two -- Clinton, Rabin, & Arafat signed a SEVEN YEAR (one week of YEARS) Dayton/Oslo PEACE ACCORD.
And we're in the final phase where the destroyer "shall come", -- some couple of decades after the seventieth week.
But CRITICAL to this consideration is the Prophetic Psalms which IS PROPHETIC FOR THE 1900's, and includes Daniel's 70 YEARS/WEEKS.
*The Book of Psalms is the 19th Book of the Bible, and the Chapters are prophetic for the YEAR; such that Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 Holocaust; Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1048 International Recognition of the State of Israel; etc.
Easy Peasy, AND TRUE!
Bobby Jo
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Keraz
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My typo, I meant 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
BTW your sarcastic comments are a bad reflection upon yourself.
Although some of the prophesies do say 'the Lord will come in fire', others like Amos 1, put it correctly; The Lord will send fire... Psalms 11:4-6
So despite your protestations to the contrary, for whatever reason I do not know; The Lord will instigate a massive explosion on the suns surface, as Isaiah 30:26a says, which will literally fulfill all the graphic prophetic descriptions about the Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth seal world changing event.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
... and it will cause men's tongues to melt in their mouths while they yet stand.
Zech. 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. 13 And on that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will lay hold on the hand of his fellow, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other; 14 even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the asses, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
Silly CME theory. -- However, this COULD depict a NUCLEAR YIELD.
Bobby Jo
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the angel that is the sun, has nuclear tricks up his sleeve? The sun may not even have to fall from heaven. Scientists can only surmise what the sun can do, because they do not know it is just an angel. Well if four angels are the river Euphrates, what can the sun be? The sun could be smaller than the Euphrates River, but still get the job done.... and it will cause men's tongues to melt in their mouths while they yet stand.
Zech. 14:12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will smite all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. 13 And on that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will lay hold on the hand of his fellow, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other; 14 even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the asses, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
Silly CME theory. -- However, this COULD depict a NUCLEAR YIELD.
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Are you mentally blind then, because you throw out slanders and slurs all the time. Funny how you're not aware of it.
Even the Daniel 3 example of the hot fiery furnace serves as an example of God's consuming fire on the day of Christ's return. Old Neb saw a fourth Man likened unto The Son of God in that furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
Isa 33:14-17
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
KJV
The kind of fire you're talking about is not the same thing as God's consuming fire, because He is... a consuming fire, as written. You're simply thinking about this with your fleshy carnal mind.
Keraz
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The prophecy in Zechariah 14:12 is plainly, obviously for AFTER Jesus has Returned to the earth. It seems to be more like a flesh eating bacteria and the Bible does call it a plague.Silly CME theory. -- However, this COULD depict a NUCLEAR YIELD.
Bobby Jo
You Americans think that nukes are the answer to all sorts of issues!
What I do is to show beliefs and theories to be wrong and I prove it using scripture.
However I do infer that those who have fallen for false doctrines and fables; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, are a bit feeble-minded.
This is a good example of a wrong and unbiblical belief.
The 3 prophesies that describe the Return of Jesus, tell of His coming in Glory, not fire. Many other prophesies say; on the Day of the Lords wrath, He will send fire, Amos 1, or will come in fire, Isaiah 66:15, meaning He will instigate a fire to destroy His enemies. 2 Peter 3:7, Ezekiel 20:47-48
The three men in the fiery furnace are our proof that the Lord can and will protect His own on the terrible Day of His fiery wrath. Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
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Bobby Jo
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You'd be closer if you said a FLESH EATING SHARK, or a FLESH EATING FLYING DRAGON, but really -- FLESH EATING BACTERIA attacks you while you're still standing on your feet and dissolves your eyes and tongue? It happens THAT FAST?!?
Keraz, I've respected your sincerity, but now SERIOUSLY doubt your sanity. Please see a doctor and get a medical check up. There's something more wrong than senility.
Bobby Jo
Keraz
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No need to cast nasty aspersions about me.
My point, that you gloss over; is that what is described in Zechariah 14:12, is a plague. So your fanciful guesswork of it being the result of a nuke, shows your incapability to understand plain Bible text.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Anyone who asserts that some "Flesh Eating Bacteria" will consume a persons EYES and TONGUE WHILE THEY YET STAND is in need of either Medical or Psychiatric evaluation.
So PLEASE seek immediate help, because one long time member of this Forum recently DIED of a brain hemorrhage, and you may be in trouble.
Bobby Jo
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Well, I already showed you other Scripture examples about Jesus coming in flaming fire to take vengeance. You can try to act like those examples don't exist, but they do. So the Dan.3 example is only a hint while the other ones I showed are direct revelations and clearly stated.
Brethren in Christ, don't pay attention to these type 'textual critics' who try to use their supposed ascendancy in re-translating the Bible Scripture manuscripts. It's because of deceivers like those, of whom many of them hate the early Bible translations like the KJV that are the cause for the illicit 'modern' Bible translations that keep getting farther and farther away from God's Truth, when they say they do it to get closer to God's original written Truth.
My problem with your theories is that you do not know the timeline in which they occur. Can you please add substance by put Zech 14:12 into the contexts, time wise, of when this event will take place and what other events will occur around this time?
Perhaps if you can truthfully provide the context, time wise, then perhaps people may be able to take your posts seriously.
If you brush off this request, and not do provide the true context of this one verse, then you will also have provided the context of your thinking.
Shalom
Keraz
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I know all those Bible prophesies very well. Jesus coming in, or sending fire; are all prophesies about His Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal. Prophesies like 2 Peter 3:7 do not say He will Return on the day fire will destroy His enemies. Psalms 18:7-15
The context of Zechariah 14:12, is after Jesus has Returned.
It is another description of the Battle of Armageddon, where Jesus uses the Sword of His Word to kill the armies attacking Jerusalem. Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19-21
I withdraw my remark of 'flesh eating bacteria', as this caused a brain explosion of a member here. Those killed will be food for the carrion birds. I absolutely deny any use of a nuke weapon then, or at any time.
First of all, Zechariah 14 is about the end of the 2,300 years of the Gentile Kings and their armies trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts, when God will cause the gentile armies, of this present time period, to assemble at Armageddon to be judged. The reference to a "plague" in Zech 14:12 give the wrong image of what s going to happen at Armageddon when compared with another image of the judgement of the kings of the earth at the same time that the judgement of the rebellious heavenly hosts occurs in heaven as the brushed stroked picture occur of this same event as described in Isa 24:21-22. In this account there is no mention of Christ returning as it is a fleeting visitation of judgement from heaven by Christ. However, in Revelation 19:11-15, we can assume that this short passage is a description of the judgement of the nations at Armageddon. The Revelation 19:19-21 reference that you said was a description of the Armageddon event is actually an account of the Gog-Magog battle that sweeps the whole earth that occurs a little over 1,000 years later.
As usually you have read verse 12 in a literal sense instead of considering the metaphorical language being use to describe how their flesh failed them and their fearful eyes retreated, and the sound of their speech was as if they had lost their tongue.
The actual description of how the judgement was carried out in described in verse 13 which is described thus: -
It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbour,
And raise his hand against his neighbour’s hand;
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbour,
And raise his hand against his neighbour’s hand;
A common occurrence when God came against the nations who had brought God's punishment upon Israel in that the army of the nation rose up against each other such that their was a great slaughter within the nations camp even before the battle of judgement had began.
You have again proved, beyond any doubt for me, that your understanding of how the End Time plays out is very suspect and flawed.
You state that: - "It is another description of the Battle of Armageddon, where Jesus uses the Sword of His Word to kill the armies attacking Jerusalem." Revelation 16:12-16 clearly states that the armies are assembled at the place called Armageddon and in this instance they will not have entered Jerusalem as the Israelites will watch from Jerusalem and consider what their options are and will seek Christ's terms of peace.
The Nation of Israel will send a delegation to state that they no longer want to serve Satan and they will repent of the sins of their Fathers and their sin and God will hear and redeem them.
Zech 14:13 denies that verse is talking about some solar radiation coming from the sun and consuming people physically as you are envisaging.
No wonder your friend is having a field day with your thoughts.
You are confusing the Gog-Magog Ezekiel 38 event that is to occur on the day of Christ's return, which is the Armageddon on the final 7th Vial of Rev.16, with a similar event of destruction of Satan and his hosts at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Rev.20.
In the Ezekiel 38 event, we are given the nation alignment that is to come upon against the deceived nation of Israel on the last day of this world. That alignment is almost complete today, Turkey (old Togarmah) being the only one mentioned not yet in the alignment against Israel.
In the Rev.20:8-9 event we are not shown which nations come upon the "camp of the saints" after Christ's 1,000 year reign.
You have failed to notice that the Rev.20 Gog event is a coming up against Christ's Church, and not upon Israel, so that is clearly a different time marker.
So those are actually 2 separate events, in 2 different times, a siege upon 2 different groups of people.
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