What triggers Armageddon ?

[ewq1938]

So you think that Christians are appointed to go through the time of God's wrath - in spite of what it says in 1Thessalonians5:8-11.

I have never, not one time, seen anyone claim Christians go through the wrath of God. We believe scripture when it says Christians will have tribulation and experience the wrath of satan. satan is not God, so satan's wrath is different than God's wrath.

The tribulation/great tribulation is satan's wrath against Christians, called a war in the last verse of Rev 12 with the war seen starting in Rev 13. satan's wrath is first, God's wrath comes after.

 

[ewq1938]

The GT is a war against Christians because of the wrath of satan. It is not the wrath of God.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


That war is the great tribulation, as seen beginning in Rev 13. It is against the church.

The 5th seal and Rev 13:7 and Rev 20:4 speak of those of the church who will be killed in the GT.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

The "event" of this is the war/killing that takes place, not the arrival of the first army, nor the leaving of the second and only surviving army. Only the fighting is what we would call "Armageddon".

The bible says gathering, not fighting, at Armageddon. Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives, in Jerusalem at His return. Jesus's return is in Zechariah 14, to the Mt of Olives, and also Jesus said of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:39...

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

I have never, not one time, seen anyone claim Christians go through the wrath of God. We believe scripture when it says Christians will have tribulation and experience the wrath of satan. satan is not God, so satan's wrath is different than God's wrath.

There are plenty - post tribbers - who say that Christians go through the Great Tribulation - that is a time of God's wrath against the world under the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan ; and also a time of Satan's wrath knowing his time is short.

 

[Douggg]

That war is the great tribulation, as seen beginning in Rev 13. It is against the church.

What triggers the great tribulation is the setting up of the abomination of desolation statue image.

Matthew 24:15-21.

The church is not referred to in Revelation 13. The great tribulation saints, yes. But not the church.

 

[ewq1938]

The bible says gathering, not fighting, at Armageddon.

A battle involves fighting.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This is seen in action in Rev 19, when God arrives with a heavenly army to destroy the army satan sent to Armageddon before Christ arrives there.

 

[ewq1938]

There are plenty - post tribbers - who say that Christians go through the Great Tribulation - that is a time of God's wrath against the world

No it's not. Scripture says it is the wrath of satan and a war against Christians. God's wrath comes after the trib.

 

[ewq1938]

The church is not referred to in Revelation 13. The great tribulation saints, yes. But not the church.

They are still the church and they are being killed and persecuted in Rev 13 and also mentioned in other of it's chapters.

 

[Douggg]

A battle involves fighting.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This is seen in action in Rev 19, when God arrives with a heavenly army to destroy the army satan sent to Armageddon before Christ arrives there.

That is the result, not that the battle will take place there.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Zechariah 14:
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

ewq1938, you are leaving out Jerusalem as the focal point of Jesus's return and the battle; and the temple mount where the beast-king, the false prophet and Satan will be.

 

[Douggg]

No it's not. Scripture says it is the wrath of satan and a war against Christians. God's wrath comes after the trib.

What ! God's wrath after the great tribulation? God's wrath is not directed at Christians, I agree. But God's wrath is major to the Great Tribulation time. The 7 trumpet judgements, the 7 vials of God's wrath poured out - all take place during the Great Tribulation.

 

[Jay Ross]

So you think that Christians are appointed to go through the time of God's wrath - in spite of what it says in 1Thessalonians5:8-11. That's not comforting to know, verse 11 - besides being incorrect.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Is there not also a passage of scripture that talks about the saints going through the fire/furnace to be purified before the time of the judgement to burn off that which does not bring glory to God?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is when God has removed the protective wall for His Church as a judgment of the whore. God was not talking about literal river in the Middle East but symbolically a spiritual protection between His Church and the world. The river was established so that God could build His church for the past 2,000 years. After that, when all Elect is secured (Revelation 7:1-4), God will remove his restraining hand out of the way with the water (signifies gospel) to dry up to allow the enemies to coming into the church where they think there is no walls and bars (protection). This is how God loosened Satan for this purpose, and HE is the one who triggered Armageddon because He is the one who decides when to bring Satan and his armies come into His unfaithful Congregation, a valley, for judgment by deceiving those who have not yet sealed by God.

So you need to reinterpret what God has written in order to defend your position.

There is no warrant to redefine Scripture.

Why sho0uld we accept what you write as literal when you reject what God inspired as literal.

 

[Keraz]

Is there not also a passage of scripture that talks about the saints going through the fire/furnace to be purified before the time of the judgement to burn off that which does not bring glory to God?

1 Peter 4:12 Friends, do not be surprised at the fiery trial that comes to test you.........
Of course everyone will experience all the end times events, because WE NEVER LEAVE THE EARTH.

People who fondly imagine that the Lord is going to rapture them away, are hopelessly confused and deceived,
We all must face a testing of our faith as the end times commence with the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. When Jesus uses His winnowing fork and the godless peoples in all of the holy Land, are burned like chaff. Zephaniah 1:14-18

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 Peter 4:12 Friends, do not be surprised at the fiery trial that comes to test you.........
Of course everyone will experience all the end times events, because WE NRVER LEAVE THE EARTH.

People who fondly imagine that the Lord is going to rapture them away, are hopelessly confused and deceived,
We all must face a testing of our faith as the end times commence with the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. When Jesus uses His winnowing fork and the godless peoples in all of the holy Land, are burned like chaff. Zephaniah 1:14-18

Well my confused borther- we will dee if your church having to suffer the wrath of God upon the earth is true, or we are removed and delivered from that wrath to come.

I hold to the simple bible declaration.

Only 2 passages on the events of the rapture and only one passage declaring when it will happen.

 

[Keraz]

Well my confused borther- we will dee if your church having to suffer the wrath of God upon the earth is true, or we are removed and delivered from that wrath to come.

This shows your lack of understanding. What we are Promised is protection and shelter during the wrath to come.

Only 2 passages on the events of the rapture and only one passage declaring when it will happen.

I consider that I know the Bible fairly well. I have never seen a scripture saying God will take His people to heaven, or remove His Church away from the earth. Matthew 28:19-20 totally refutes any ideas of removal or a rapture to heaven.
We must endure until the end.

 

[ewq1938]

This shows your lack of understanding. What we are Promised is protection and shelter during the wrath to come.

I consider that I know the Bible fairly well. I have never seen a scripture saying God will take His people to heaven, or remove His Church away from the earth.

They are removed from the surface of the Earth to the first heaven, the clouds of the Earth. It is for a limited time, and was designed to get people from where they were all over the planet in different places to being all gathered in one specific place, those clouds.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So you need to reinterpret what God has written in order to defend your position.

There is no warrant to redefine Scripture.

Why sho0uld we accept what you write as literal when you reject what God inspired as literal.

Did God inspire the book of Revelation to be interpreted as literal then? Should we expect a woman floating upon the moon and with sun for clothing (Revelation 12:1)? Horses with the bodies of locusts and faces of men running, (Revelation 9:7)? Or the oceans, lakes and rivers will turn to blood (Revelation 16:4)?

Seriously?!

No, the book of Revelation is replete with imagery, symbols, and monikers, most of which refer to or are derived from the Old Testament examples. In order to understand Revelation, you need to have spiritual discernment by comparing verses with the rest of the Scriptures.

Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

What ! God's wrath after the great tribulation? God's wrath is not directed at Christians, I agree. But God's wrath is major to the Great Tribulation time. The 7 trumpet judgements, the 7 vials of God's wrath poured out - all take place during the Great Tribulation.

Nope. The trib ends when the vials of wrath begin. You are mixing God's wrath and satan's wrath and making them overlap which is false. The trib is during the 6th trump. When the 7th sounds the trib has ended (no Christian is persecuted or killed by satan any more), Christ returns in wrath and the vials are poured.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope. The trib ends when the vials of wrath begin.

According to my teaching, you are correct. The Great Tribulation "FOR" the Elect in the Church will end when God starts to judge the unfaithful church and commanded His people to come out to avoid the plagues (of judgment).

Rev 18:2-4
(2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Mat 24:29-30
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Remember the woman in Revelation 12 with sun, moon and stars? They represents the church! Therefore, the signs in the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 is about the judgment of woman who has turned unfaithful. This is the Wrath of God upon the unfaithful church. But please remember this is NOT the Second Coming until the judgment of the whore (for "one hour") is finished then Christ shall come. This is why the third woe comes right after the second woe (note: one hour) which is the judgment of the city (church):

Rev 11:13-14
(13) And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(14) The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The same hour and one hour speaks of the same period of the judgment of the whore. It speaks about complete fall of New Testament congregation (spiritually) just like the Old Testament congregation was at the cross. All the professed Christians who have not yet sealed by God are judged to be lost and will not find salvation. This is why the faithful Elect left the church when they see the abomination of desolation standing in where it should not and witness/prophesy that judgment of GOd has come on the City and mourned for her becasue no man will find salvation anymore. That is why Elect can "see" and afraid of God's judgment and give glory to God. This is the second woe. After this, Christ returns! The third woe "is" the seventh trumpet where Saints will be rapture to the air and CHrist will start judge the rest of the world (that is after the unfaithful church is judged first).

Selah.

The trib is during the 6th trump. When the 7th sounds the trib has ended (no Christian is persecuted or killed by satan any more), Christ returns in wrath and the vials are poured.

No. The vials will take place BEFORE Christ returns. It is the judgment of the unfaithful congregation BEFORE Christ return. After all vials are poured out, Christ returns. Not after. Remember, God must judge his house (church) FIRST before the world. That is why the judgment of the unfaithful church need to take place BEFORE Christ returns, then He will judge the world. Why? Because the Church had the truth to begin but in the end, she depart from God and start whoring with the doctrines of Satan (and attack the Two Witnesses testimony).

 

[ewq1938]

The trib ends when the vials of wrath begin.

According to my teaching, you are correct.

Ok, so if the trib ends and the vials pour, then what you say next is impossible:

No. The vials will take place BEFORE Christ returns.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Scripture says Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after the trib ends, and you agreed that when the trib ends the vials will pour. You need to include what these verses say to be correct.

Trib ends, Jesus returns AND the vials pour. There is no time for vials to pour before Jesus returns when Jesus said his return was IMMEDIATELY after the trib's end.