Keraz
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1 Thess 4:17 Prophesies a transportation, not a rapture. Big difference.
From where we are to where Jesus will be. As Matthew 24:31 tells us.
What triggers Armageddon ?
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From where we are to where Jesus will be. As Matthew 24:31 tells us.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
You are not reading carefully.
Mat 24:29-30
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The signs in the sun, moon and star will occur immediately after the tribulation of those days (Great Tribulation). This does not mean that the Son of man shall appear "immediately after" the signs in the sun, moon, and star. You need to allow some time for judgment of the church to take place first PRIOR to appear of Christ. Again, the signs in sun, moon, and stars represent the fall of the church, being judged by God. This has to take place BEFORE Christ returns. But I can understand why you refuse to accept it because it does not fit your doctrine. After all, you are reading into verses that Christ must appear immediately after the Great Tribulation. Its not the case.
The vials will be poured during the "signs in the sun, moon, and stars" PRIOR to Second Coming.
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ewq1938
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You are wrong. The coming is also part of the many things that happen immediately once the trib ends.
G5119
τότε
tote
Thayer Definition:
1) then
2) at that time
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753
TribulationSigns
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ewq1938
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Nope.
That's all you can reply with because I proved you are wrong. I don't just look at scripture in English.
Exactly! I agree with you 100% here since that is how the text reads to me as well. And besides, according to Revelation 16 involving some of the vials, it says they repented not. Which then at least tells us repenting is still an option at this point, except they refuse to repent. How is it reasonable then, that repenting can still be an option after Christ has bodily returned? How is it reasonable that if it is still an option at that point, that anyone in their right mind would refuse to do so?
Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
deeds
ergon
er'-gon
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Revelation 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 16 (the mouth)
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 ¶ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
It seems that this is a religious "war of words", as in "Who's following the true God?", and the beast, false prophet and dragon have miracles and lying wonders accompanying their words, just as the first coming of Christ and early spread of the gospel was accompanied with many (real) miracles -
but the saints who are following Christ on white horses are those who had been through (the) great tribulation - which IN THE NEW TESTAMENT and throughout the New Testament, only refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of unbelievers, and ultimately, at the hand of the beast, and NEVER refers to any "tribulation" to be experienced by the unbelieving world. What the unbelievers experience at the hand of God, is called wrath.
IMO the saints following Christ on white horses are the same as those spoken of in Revelation 7:
13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto fountains of living waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
And in 1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Before Armageddon the beast had made war with the saints, and had overcome them: and authority was given the beast over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7). The beast had also made war with the two witnesses, overcome them, and killed them (Revelation 11:7).
What is coming out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet and the dragon is what triggers the resurrection of the saints, the return of Christ, and the battle of Armageddon:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 16:15 is the first time in the Revelation that Christ speaks to His elect after His messages to the seven churches, all of which end with promises to those who overcome. The reason for this should be obvious.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 16 (the mouth)
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 ¶ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
It seems that this is a religious "war of words", as in "Who's following the true God?", and the beast, false prophet and dragon have miracles and lying wonders accompanying their words, just as the first coming of Christ and early spread of the gospel was accompanied with many (real) miracles -
but the saints who are following Christ on white horses are those who had been through (the) great tribulation - which IN THE NEW TESTAMENT and throughout the New Testament, only refers to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of unbelievers, and ultimately, at the hand of the beast, and NEVER refers to any "tribulation" to be experienced by the unbelieving world. What the unbelievers experience at the hand of God, is called wrath.
IMO the saints following Christ on white horses are the same as those spoken of in Revelation 7:
13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto fountains of living waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
And in 1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Before Armageddon the beast had made war with the saints, and had overcome them: and authority was given the beast over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7). The beast had also made war with the two witnesses, overcome them, and killed them (Revelation 11:7).
What is coming out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet and the dragon is what triggers the resurrection of the saints, the return of Christ, and the battle of Armageddon:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Where in the Bible does it say the beast-king will be a Jew in Jerusalem who Jews will believe is their Messiah?
The prophets, when taken literally, say that God will gather all nations into the Valley of Jehoshaphat - "YHVH shall judge" - which is a reference to the Kidron Valley between the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives, so it coincides with Zechariah 14.
Har-Megiddo is a symbolic name because it will be a decisive battle, IMO.
Revelation 17The prophets, when taken literally, say that God will gather all nations into the Valley of Jehoshaphat - "YHVH shall judge" - which is a reference to the Kidron Valley between the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives, so it coincides with Zechariah 14.
Har-Megiddo is a symbolic name because it will be a decisive battle, IMO.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Zechariah 14:5b
And Yhwh my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
NOWHERE does the Old Testament OR the New Testament say that the beast is yet another would-be Jewish Messiah. NOWHERE does the New Testament say that a building in Jerusalem where animal sacrifices for sins are being offered will be considered the Temple of God. Such a temple is not the Temple the beast will blaspheme:Revelation 13
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and authority was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
NOWHERE does the New Testament or the Revelation imply that the Temple of God that the man of sin will appear in, is a building in Jerusalem where animal sacrifices for sin are being offered. It's all fantasy.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Still, the Old Testament and New Testament prophets speak of the slaughter of the enemies of the Lamb, albeit using symbolic language. "Armageddon" is literal and not just spiritual IMO. Some Christians seem to end with a very unbalanced view making it all spiritual and none of it literal, or vice-versa.
But what no one should ever forget is that the Temple of God is Jesus:
Revelation 13
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and authority was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
1 John 5
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
4 For everything that has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
1 John 2
14 I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
Seven times a promise is made by Jesus to his churches using the words "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes .."
Revelation 13
7 And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation.
Revelation 11
7 And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.
Revelation 17
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.
Jesus overcomes with the sword that proceeds out of His mouth.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. Revelation 21
TribulationSigns
Active Member
You proved NOTHING! You are confused about the signs in the sun, moon, and stars that must take place immediately after the Great Tribulation. It does not means that Christ immediately appears in the sky. That comes after the judgment of the church which the sun, moon and stars signify. Can't understand the signs, not my problem. Only the Lord can reveal the Truth.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Good, we are getting closer to the Truth.
Exactly! OTherwise, it's impossible for anyone to repent at the time Christ returns.
Yep!
Glad you bring up Revelation 16. It is diffuilt verse for people to understand but it won't me if you have spiritual discernement. Allow me to explain...
The problem is that many Christians will DENY (just like Lot's sons in law, for example) that the kingdom is CHURCH and is under judgment because God has allowed his kingdom to be handed over to the Beast for a short season for her unfaithfulness. Revelation 16:10-11 is about the judgment of people within the New Testament congregaiton of Israel, the Church.
People will not going to shew their tongues off literally. They will not get physical pains or sores as result of chemical or nuclear warefare as some believed. NO! We need to find God's definition for tongues, pains, and sores with the rest of Scirpture to find out exactly what God is talking about it. Remember, spiritual discernment!
The kingdom spoke of here is the New Testament congregation where God has agreed and allowed to be handed over to the Beast to rule over for a short season. Please understand that this judgment of God makes this beast's kingdom full of darkness. In symbolic terms, the stars fall from heaven, the sun becomes dark, the moon turns to blood! The tongue in Scirpture usually "signifies' either speech or language. And darkness is the opposite of light, right? So it is the absence of Christ. So what God is talking about is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the wicked no longer speak the Gospel (Psalms 119:172). This is again spiritual imagery signifying:
1.) The removal of light from church.
2.) A spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God (darkness and chewing of tongue.)
This is the same portrait that is painted when God says in 2nd Thessalonians that the restrainer (Holy Spirit) shall be taken out of the midest of the Holy Temple (Church) that the man of sin (sinful man - false prophets and christs) be revealed (to the Elect). It is all pointing to God's judgment upon the unfaithful church for their spiritual fornications.
This Revelation 16 passage is not informing anyone that unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain, rather it is spiritual imagery signifying God sending them strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the gospel is concerned! This signified by this imagery of them chewing ther tongues that they can no longer be used for God's (Isaiah 50:4) purposes! Selah! In other words, they become speechless or silent. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the kingdom!
Isaiah 50:4
- "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."
1st Samuel 2:9
- "He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail."
Psalms 12:3
- "The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:"
- "The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out."
Ezekiel 3:26
- "And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."
As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.
Oh, and the "pain" and "sores" have to do with their spiritual sickness that cannot be healed at that time so they will refuse to repent of their sins (deeds).
Selah.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Yes, the mouth signifies the WORD that people speak with. The Elects speak with the Word of God out of their mouths while the false prophets and beast (body of professed Christians) speak with the word of Satan out of their mouths. It is a spiritual war between Elect and professed Christians for the control of the church but unforurentely, the kingdom (church) is temporarily being given over to Satan and his armies of false prophets and christs. This is what the spiritual battle of Armageddon is all about. It is not about a physical battle with human men spewing frogs out of their mouths literally as some fools actually believe this.
I may be misunderstanding you, but Armageddon is an actual place in Israel. So the gathering of the kings of the earth and their armies is literal.
Something mega has to have happened that causes that unprecedented gathering of the armies of the nations. Which I am saying is the sign of the Son of man in heaven - i.e. Jesus, sickle in hand.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Har-Megiddo (Armageddon) is a symbolic name.
Tel-Megiddo lies way north of the Valley of Jehoshaphat (symbolic name of the Kidron Valley) and the Mount of Olives. Tel Megiddo (an archaeological mound) is the site of the ancient city of Megiddo situated near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 kilometres south-east of Haifa, at the western edge of the Jezreel Valley. It's known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance, especially under its Greek name, "Armageddon".
But Armageddon is not the place the battle takes place:
Joel 3
1 For, behold, in those days and in that time, when I will bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will fight with them there for My people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land.
Zechariah 14
3 And the LORD shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
The battle is referring to literal people who are the enemies of the Lamb, who are going to war against the Lamb, but it's a spiritual battle, hence the symbolic name, "Armageddon". Both "Armageddon" and "Jehoshaphat" are symbolic names for the battle, which takes place in Jerusalem.
Tel-Megiddo lies way north of the Valley of Jehoshaphat (symbolic name of the Kidron Valley) and the Mount of Olives. Tel Megiddo (an archaeological mound) is the site of the ancient city of Megiddo situated near Kibbutz Megiddo, about 30 kilometres south-east of Haifa, at the western edge of the Jezreel Valley. It's known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance, especially under its Greek name, "Armageddon".
But Armageddon is not the place the battle takes place:
Joel 3
1 For, behold, in those days and in that time, when I will bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will fight with them there for My people and for My inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land.
Zechariah 14
3 And the LORD shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
The battle is referring to literal people who are the enemies of the Lamb, who are going to war against the Lamb, but it's a spiritual battle, hence the symbolic name, "Armageddon". Both "Armageddon" and "Jehoshaphat" are symbolic names for the battle, which takes place in Jerusalem.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong! we are to be delievered from the wrath to come:
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Why should I take your word over Gods?
Then you need to know it better.
You forget rules of context. Ignore the six points of understanding--who , what, when, where, why, and how. Matthew 28:10=20 shows Jesus is with the church until the end of the church age. that happens at the rapture. Those who get saved in the 70th week of Daniel are , (as I call them) trib saints and for the p[urp-ose of the 1000 year kingdom hold a different place.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes god expected us to take the book as literal. Within literalism we know that there is symbolic or apocalyptic language. Teh bible defines all the symbols for us so we do not need to seek "special revelation".
Yes teh revelation has plenty of symbolisms. But those that retreat to that position almost without fail use that as an excuse to take passages to be understood literally and redefine them without biblical definitions.
Those within and without Christinaity who reinterpret Revelation have dozens and literally hundreds of meanings for many passages. Why is yours better than all the otrhers? why not take Scripture at its face value and then let Gods Word define the symbols God uses?
TribulationSigns
Active Member
You are right. "god" wants you to think to take the book of Revelation literally. And no "God" does not inspire the book to be understood literally or physically. Unless you agree that there is a human woman floating in space over moon.
LOL. Show me an example, Ronald. What is the symbolic for beast, horns, river, sea, frogs, locusts, etc. Take your time.
Like duh.
I have done this but you did not receive it well. But for now, let hear your understanding of God's definitions in the book of Revelation.
Example please.
Not mine but God's.
Who told you this? "god"?
Show me the example of how you understand God's definition on symbols in Revelation.
I don't disagree that Jerusalem will be the focal point. But because to the size of the armies, they will sprawl the 200 mile north to south length of Israel because of what it says in Revelation 14.16-20
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. [Jesus given a sickle, and he destroys those armies that will be in the vicinity surrounding Jerusalem ]
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. [an angel was given a sickle as well]
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
So the angel also given a sickle will destroy those armies beyond the vicinity of Jerusalem but still packed into Israel norlth to south - and the blood them will flow 1600 furlongs - 200 miles, the north-south length of Israel.
So the destruction of the armies of the nations will be in two parts.
1. first, the armies in the vicinity of Jerusalem will be destroyed by Jesus in Zechariah 14, and Revelation 19:21.
2. then immediately after those armies die, the armies beyond the vicinity of Jerusalem, but still sprawled across Israel, will be killed by the angel, given a sickle, especially appointed for that task.
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