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Featured What Was Israel Ordained For?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Davy, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Nah, I pointed you to it. It says what it says. Do you have a problem with understanding what is written? And the KJV is a good enough translation of that passage, so it's not going to change what it says.

    Gen 49:10
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
    KJV


    Gen 49:10
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh come: And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
    ASV

    Gen 49:10
    10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
    nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
    until he comes to whom it belongs;
    and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.
    RSV

    Gen 49:10
    10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
    nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
    until he comes to whom it belongs
    and the obedience of the nations is his.
    NIV

    Gen 49:10
    10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
    Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
    Until Shiloh comes,
    And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.
    NASU


    Gen. 49:10
    The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff between his feet, until Shiloh comes. And to him shall be the obedience of nations.
    LEB
     
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You can't do that. Reason is because you would have to omit history of the majority of the ten northern tribes being separated from the "house of Judah" and having never returned.

    Now if you want to solely point to the Jews in Jesus' day as that "house of Israel", you've got a problem there too, because only a remnant of the ten northern tribes migrated south to Judah while refusing Jeroboam's gold calf idols.


    This was about Rehoboam, king of Judah, Solomon's son, and what he did right after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms:

    2 Chron 11:10-17
    10 And Zorah, and Aijalon, and Hebron, which are in Judah and in Benjamin fenced cities.
    11 And he fortified the strong holds, and put captains in them, and store of victual, and of oil and wine.
    12 And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side.


    Notice that none of the northern 10 tribes are mentioned there, but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. At that point, those and the strangers living in Judea were all that Rehoboam ruled over.



    13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
    14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
    15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.


    This "Israel" here means only the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel", which God had made Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim king over (1 Kings 11). At that point, the tribe of Levi became joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at Judea under king Rehoboam of Judah.


    16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

    Then a remnant of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's idol worship and common priests instead sided with Judah, and left to join under Rehoboam king of Judah. That is the remnant you... say that believed, which of course is false in regards to believing on Jesus, simply because they had become religous Jews along with the rest of those living in Judea. And the majority of Jews rejected Jesus at His 1st coming.


    The reality of the situation at the time of Jesus' first coming when Jerusalem rejected Him, is that the majority of Israelites were spared that humiliation of having been responsible for Christ's crucifixion, simply because they were not there in the holy lands at all then! They had already been scattered through the countries by then from two captivities, one for the "kingdom of Israel" by the Assyrians and the other for the majority of Jews of the "kingdom of Judah" by the king of Babylon.


    17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

    KJV
     
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You still are not saying what you see in this passage. Makes me wonder why?

    I'd like to hear what you have to say, and look at the passage with you so examine if it says what you think it says. But I cannot do that if you will not share what you see in this passage that informs your view.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What God's Word and history shows is like I have said, and you confirmed, that...

    1. God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms - the "kingdom of Judah" containing 2 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi, with Rehoboam, king of Judah over them in the south at Jerusalem. And the northern "kingdom of Israel" that contained ten tribes with Jeroboam, king of Israel over them in the north at Samaria.

    2. That a remnant of the ten northern tribes left the north and went south, joined with the kingdom of Judah. This of course means the majority of the ten tribes stayed north under king Jeroboam.

    3. The kings of Assyria took the northern kingdom of Israel captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. Peoples from Babylon were placed in those northern lands instead, and became the Biblical Samaritans.

    4. Only the kingdom of Judah remained in the land, still following the old covenant. This included the small remnant of northern ten tribe Israelites that sided with Judah. These were the Jews.

    5. About 130 years after the ten northern tribe kingdom had been removed, the king of Babylon came upon the kingdom of Judah and took them captive to Babylon for 70 years. The priesthood and leadership became corrupted while in Babylon (Ezra). Only a small remnant returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and temple. These were the Jews in Jesus' day.

    6. The ten tribes were further scattered through the countries, along with the majority of Judah that had stayed in Babylon after they were freed. A remnant among these that had heard The Gospel and believed are who Apostle James was addressing that were scattered abroad.
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'm simply showing how Scripture uses the terminology that you are using but in a different way.

    I find it best to use Biblical terminology in Biblical ways to discuss Biblical concepts.

    Yes, the kingdom was split in two.

    Yes, the northern, then southern kingdoms were removed from the land.

    Yes, there was a remnent of the northern tribes in the southern kingdom.

    Thank you:



    Yes, that's a good passage to show this.

    All twelve tribes present and accounted for in Judah, there because they believed in worshipping YHWH instead of the golden calves.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to hear how you read that. I pointed you to that Scripture, so what is it saying?

    Oh, and here's verses that go with that, helping you with the context of Who is meant in that latter part of Gen.49:10.

    Gen 49:10-12
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
    11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

    12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
    KJV

    Wonder Who that part in red is about, hm......

    And English grammar requires us to go back to the previous object to pick up who that "his" is, which in this case is "Shiloh".
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I had to edit the quotes because of how your last post wasn't quoted properly.

    Davy:
    (You can't do that. Reason is because you would have to omit history of the majority of the ten northern tribes being separated from the "house of Judah" and having never returned.)

    marks
    I'm simply showing how Scripture uses the terminology that you are using but in a different way.
    I find it best to use Biblical terminology in Biblical ways to discuss Biblical concepts.


    Davy
    (That idea of "Biblical ways" is too vague to have any real usefulness. God's Truth is Truth, cutting asunder man's ways.)


    marks
    Yes, the kingdom was split in two.
    Yes, the northern, then southern kingdoms were removed from the land.
    Yes, there was a remnent of the northern tribes in the southern kingdom.

    Thank you:

    16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.


    Yes, that's a good passage to show this.
    All twelve tribes present and accounted for in Judah, there because they believed in worshipping YHWH instead of the golden calves.

    Much love!
    Mark

    Davy
    (No, you cannot say, "All twelve tribes" and suggest that there are no separate ten tribes, which is what you originally stated in an earlier post. The majority of the ten tribes are still... apart from the Jews today. God's Word shows they will be joined back together in final (Ezek.37 and Amos 9 for example).
     
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    Yeah, this looks good!

    On #6, I'd say then, the question is whether the scattered tribes refers to those scattered by the Assyrians and Chaldeans, although, if I remember how the Scripture reads in that part, Babylon took them captive as slaves, rather than dispersing them. And then Babylon allowed them to return, but most of them didn't want to, preferring their lives in Babylon and points beyond.

    But whether, for instance, James writes to these, or to those scattered by the persecutions of Herod during early apostolic time?

    But either way, I don't really have much of a bone to pick over it. It's more a matter to me of understanding who God contends His chosen people are.

    Myself, I think in terms of those descended from the remnant, although I don't this so clearly defined in Scripture.

    It's sounding like we agree over a lot.

    Much love!
    mark
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You first.

    You brought it up. It's only fair.

    ;)

    Much love!
    mark
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it gets difficult!

    Let's just say I like to use the same words the Bible uses, and I try to make sure I'm using them the same way. So that the wording of Scripture forms my thoughts.


    This to me is the strength of your argument, and something I'll need to put more thought into. Very compelling!

    So let me ask you this . . .

    The central theme of this thead concerns what you've called Israel's birthright promises, is that correct?

    And that they have left those whom we think of as Israel, and actually belong to those we haven't previously thought of as Israel, am I reading this right? Or do I have the wrong idea?

    Much love!
    mark
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    On #6, both the majority of the ten tribes of the northern kingdom, and the two tribes of the southern kingdom, were scattered. A remnant of believers among all 12 had to be who James was addressing. Of scattered Judah (Jews), whether scattered from Babylon after the 70 years, or scattered from Judea after the return, doesn't matter, those still would represent just the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (with a small remnant of ten tribes). Those all would be known as Jews having been part of the "kingdom of Judah". But the ten tribes, their captivity and scattering was more complete at one time (see the Behistun rock).

    Jerusalem has been sieged or captured something like 27 times in its history. The 70 A.D. Roman destruction of Jerusalem was also a large scattering of the Jews. Yet, the majority of ten tribe Israelites were not part of that, and were still abroad.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    What's fair is that you read it and bring it to the discussion, since it was my reply. So your response should be next.
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    And yet God recognizes Ephraim/Joseph as one of the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 48.

    The Gentiles nations, on the other hand, will always remain nations, as we see here:

    THE TWELVE TRIBES
    And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4)

    THE GENTILE NATIONS
    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9)

    So whoever told you that Ephraim = the Western nations is just deceiving you.
     
  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Who is the pronoun referring to? I would say "shiloh", from the KJV. I understand that there are some intricacies in the Hebrew on this part.

    This is the same passage in Brenton's Septuagint translation:

    Genesis 49:8-12 Brenton
    (8) Juda, thy brethren have praised thee, and thy hands shall be on the back of thine enemies; thy father's sons shall do thee reverence.
    (9) Juda is a lion's whelp: from the tender plant, my son, thou art gone up, having couched thou liest as a lion, and as a whelp; who shall stir him up?
    (10) A ruler shall not fail from Juda, nor a prince from his loins, until there come the things stored up for him; and he is the expectation of nations.
    (11) Binding his foal to the vine, and the foal of his ass to the branch of it, he shall wash his robe in wine, and his garment in the blood of the grape.
    (12) His eyes shall be more cheering than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk.


    Much love!
    Mark
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    We're not far apart on this at all.

    My understanding is that the term Jews was used in Jesus' day of members of all 12 tribes. John also used it in his Gospel of the rulers of Israel, but I count that as different, so I haven't brought it up.

    But certainly, whichever dispersion they are counted from, I certainly believe the Israelites will receive God's promises made to them.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Davy,

    I count myself a Gentile, without Hebrew heritage. Am I wrong?

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I do much of the same, which is why I often post the Scripture as written, in a different color so no mistake is made between my words and Scripture. But we shouldn't be afraid to paraphrase as long as we stay in the Scripture context. That is one of our teaching tools, because if we truly understand Scripture by The Holy Spirit, then The Holy Spirit will also show us how teach folks at different levels in their education and understanding.


    That's right, partly. There are promises from God that still are to remain among Judah (which I was trying to get you to see in the Gen.49:10 Scripture). And per 1 Kings 11, God promised He'd always leave one tribe in Jerusalem. But David's throne, not there in Jerusalem anymore. The blessing of the best lands, and plenty of corn and wine, not really there either, though it's getting a lot better, just not compared to the lands in the western Christian nations. Same with the most powerful military.

    But because the majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected Christ, He said their house would be left desolate (Matt.23).


    Apostle Paul understood this, otherwise he would not have preached this to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus:

    Eph 2:11-20
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    Why do you think Paul would keep that label "commonwealth of Israel" there applied to believing Gentiles also? It's because that is exactly what God was revealing through His OT prophets about His Kingdom in final. Enlarge the tent God said through Isaiah, to make room for the Gentiles (Isaiah 54). Israel is still going to be a nation in God's future Kingdom, but it's going to be made up mostly of Christ's body of believers that serve Him. Remember what God originally ordained Israel for, i.e., to be a kingdom of priests (Ex.19:6; 1 Pet.2:5; Rev.1:6).


    Paul said the same things in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 about the Gentiles inheriting with Abraham because of Faith on Christ Jesus.

    In Romans 9, this is also why Paul quoted from Hosea about God having mercy on a people that were not a people (i.e., Gentiles). The prophecies in Hosea were actually written to the ten tribes, and not to Gentiles. Yet Paul quoted Hosea to Gentile Romans. This is why.

    Because the ten lost tribes were scattered among the Gentiles, it had to be they and... Gentile believers, that Apostle Paul was preaching these things to. And both... together, would become one body in Christ Jesus.

    Rom 4:12-17
    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
    15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him Whom he believed, even God, Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    KJV
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I see the title of Jew originating from the tribe of Judah, like Josephus said. But I see it being used before Judah's captivity to Babylon. Today it can mean one born of the house of Judah, or of the region of Judea, or one who converts to Judaism. Those Jews who claim heritage from old Israel I think are called Sephardic Jews. (see Judaism 101: Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews)

    But that does not apply to lost ten tribe Israelites. The majority of them were not associated with Judah. The Jews claim to have never lost their heritage as part of old Israel. But the ten scattered tribes mostly think they are Gentiles. Even the Jews don't know who the ten tribes are that are scattered among Gentiles today. Yet God knows (Amos 9:9; Ezek.37).

    And therein is the mystery. God gave a bill of divorce to the ten tribes because of their rebellion against Him, and scattered them as He warned He would do. But in a latter time He would use them along with believing Gentiles, to impart His blessings according to His time schedule of the Promise to Abraham by Faith, for both believing Israelite and believing Gentile.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The word Hebrew comes from Eber of the OT. Abraham was a Hebrew in that lineage. You can look that up in Genesis.

    Most Caucasian peoples are Hebrews. I also count myself as a Gentile with probably Hebrew origin. But our Lord Jesus really made this of none effect, because per Romans 9 those who are of the Promise (by Faith) are now counted for the seed of Israel.
     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Today Jew refers to any Israelite.

    It does not matter if they are into Judaism, Christianity or anything else. They are still Jews.

    Revelation specifically shows all 12 tribes still exist. Genuine Jews. Not Gentiles.
     
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