What Was Israel Ordained For?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,501
21,647
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No mark, it is not about me either. It is about what is actually being said in Genesis in the Abrahamic Covenant.

As Stephen stated in his defence before he was stoned to death, that God had spoken to Abraham the first recorded part of the Abrahamic Covenant, as found in Genesis,12:1-3, while he was still in the city of Ur in Babylon probably when he was around 50-52 years of age and he left the land of Babylon shortly afterwards and travelled with his father in his father's household to Haran where Terah again set up his household at Haran. It was not until Abraham had set up his own household, servants and flocks over the next 20-23 years that Abraham then left his father's household/presence and began his journey south towards the Land of Canaan where Abraham then spent the rest of his days.

This covenant is recorded in Genesis.12:1-3: -

1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to an earth that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves."

In Abraham’s first recorded encounter with God, God tells Abraham: -

(a.) to leave the land where you are living,
(b.) to leave his relatives,
(c.) to leave your father’s house,
(d.) to go to a “righteous” earth that he, God, would show him,
(e.) that Abraham’s descendants would become a great nation,
(f.) that God himself would bless him, (g.) that God would make Abraham’s name great and
(h.) because of that he would be a blessing,
(i.) that he (God) would bless those that bless him
(j.) and curse those who curse him, and
(k.) that Abraham would become a blessing for all the families of the earth.

Then in Genesis.12:7b God said, "To your descendants I will give this earth."

In Abraham’s second recorded encounter with God, God undertakes to give Abraham’s descendants the earth using the same Hebrew word “hā·’ā·reṣ”.

Then in Genesis.13:14-17:-
14 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Lift up your eyes, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all of the earth which you see I will give to your descendants{seed} for a period of undefined time. 16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your descendants also can be counted. 17 Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, in order for Me to give it.

In Abraham’s third recorded encounter with God, God promises to give Abraham’s descendants all the land of the earth around Abraham, that he had/could/would see, and He commands Abraham to go and walk through all the land. God also promises to make all his descendants many, such that their number would be like the dust of the earth and impossible, or at the very least, difficult to count. The promise is to give the land to Abraham’s descendants for a defined period of time where the start and finish of being given the land where Abraham has walked is not defined. The actual description of this land is found in Genesis.15:17-21.

It is important to note that in the third encounter, the same Hebrew word “hā·’ā·reṣ” is traditional translated as land, then as Earth and as then as earth again. If the context of the second and third use dictates that “hā·’ā·reṣ” should be understood to have the meaning of “the earth” then why has the first “hā·’ā·reṣ” in the Genesis.13:14-17 been translated as “land”?

Marks, you have said that you have done a word study on “hā·’ā·reṣ”, but I would suggest that you have not gone deeply enough in the word study to understand the importance of what I am posting.

Shalom

OK. But remember, we have very different ways that we read the Bible. I really don't have an expectation that we will reach agreement on these things.

But here again, the same word root appears for the land Abram is to leave as the land that God will show him. Words have different uses naturally.

There is this land, America. My land, where my house is. The land, as opposed to the sea. Even in English we can use the same word to refer to a variety of things.

But again, we know this about each other. We interpret very differently, not just our conclusions, but how we read the text.

Forn instance,

(d.) to go to a “righteous” earth that he, God, would show him,

God is calling Abram from his homeland, to a new land. But you've added "righteous", and made land to be earth, even though he's leaving his land, but not leaving earth. Not to sound insulting. But isnt' this what we're saying?

Much love!
Mark
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,904
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
It has been translated as "land" because that is exactly what it means in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant. The whole earth is definitely NOT in view in this passage:

GENESIS 15
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: [THE BOUNDARIES OF THE LAND CLEARLY STATED]
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. [ALL THESE NATIONS WITHIN THOSE BOUNDARIES]

So how about getting back on track and properly understanding the Abrahamic Covenant, which includes promises to the twelve tribes of Israel (indicated as "thy seed" over here)?

It really depends on the time context that you apply to the Abrahamic covenant and God's purposes for entering into this covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

Is the Abrahamic covenant got a short time span or a very long time frame.

If it has a short timeframe then the covenant of the Promise land only lasted up and until all of Israel was scattered to the four corners of the earth.

Now honestly answer me this, "Why did God enter into this solemn covenantal promise to Abraham?"

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,904
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
OK. But remember, we have very different ways that we read the Bible. I really don't have an expectation that we will reach agreement on these things.

But here again, the same word root appears for the land Abram is to leave as the land that God will show him. Words have different uses naturally.

There is this land, America. My land, where my house is. The land, as opposed to the sea. Even in English we can use the same word to refer to a variety of things.

But again, we know this about each other. We interpret very differently, not just our conclusions, but how we read the text.

For instance,

God is calling Abram from his homeland, to a new land. But you've added "righteous", and made land to be earth, even though he's leaving his land, but not leaving earth. Not to sound insulting. But isnt' this what we're saying?

Much love!
Mark
Mark, even when our English words have the same Latin Root they can have very different meanings.

This is also true for Hebrew word with the same Hebrew root word. The meaning can be very different between the variant Hebrew words with the same embedded Hebrew Root word.

But if you look only at the root word meaning, then every variant where the Hebrew root word is embedded will also have the same meaning.

However, in Gen.12:1, we have two very different Hebrew words. Leave your land/country/place, "mê·’ar·ṣə·ḵā" and go to the earth "hā·’ā·reṣ" that I will show you.

"mê·’ar·ṣə·ḵā" only is found twice in the OT, in Gen.12:1 and Deu.26:2 and in both instances it is a reference to a piece of land or a place on the earth, where they are living.

"hā·’ā·reṣ" on the other hand is found 936 times, according to BibleHub in the OT in all cases where the Hebrew words are identical it should be understood to have the meaning of "earth."

God called Abraham from the place where he was living, at that stage in the Land of Babylon/Chaldeans, and go to a place at some time in the distant future which they would then receive as their inheritance, and which I am saying in agreement with and consistent with the scriptural prophecies that the saints of God will receive the whole refurbished earth as their inheritance. Now are the Saints promised a small part of the earth or the whole earth at that time?

I rest my case.

Shalom
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,705
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am well awear of the history of Israel. I repeat my question.
You are saying that Jesus will call the Jews whether from the 10 extinct tribes or not out of the nations.

Is this because they are faithful Jews still practising the OT rites, or because they are arabs with a Jewish ancestor or because they are Christian.

Your so-called "10 extinct tribes" are not... Jews.

And your next statement is way... off base from what my topic has been. My original post is clear, so are my later posts. Go back and read the Bible Scripture I point to with my statements.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,705
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Davy,

Farouk's post 112 sums up my understanding on this point.

He is pointing to Darby's theory of Dispensationalism which preaches a separation between national Israel in a restored kingdom of Israel on earth while the Church reigns from Heaven with Jesus, all after His return. That idea is not written anywhere in God's Word. Darby obviously created that idea to go with his belief on a Pre-tribulational Rapture. It all centers around the pre-trib rapture theory, because those who heed men's doctrines that take on popularity do not always align with Bible Scripture.

For example, in John 14, one of the ideas those on a Pre-trib Rapture often quote about Jesus' coming and rapturing them, is the, "In My Father's house are many mansions." (John 14:2). They preach those mansions are in Heaven. But in reality, our Lord Jesus was pointing to the abodes of the priests in the Ezekiel temple (millennial temple) in Jerusalem, on earth after His return (Ezek.40-47).

Then you have the examples of the children of the kingdom who were bid to the marriage supper but were too busy, so those out in the streets were instead bidden to come in and sit down in the kingdom with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And the children of the kingdom who were originally intended are instead cast to the "outer darkness" (Matt.8:5-13; Matt.22:1-14). In Revelation 22:14-15 we are shown a slight view of that "outer darkness" with the wicked who are outside the gates of the holy city, while those inside have right to the tree of life. That is actually Revelation 20 millennial timing, even though its written in the Revelation 22 chapter. In the Revelation 20 millennial chapter, the "camp of the saints" is on earth, not in Heaven, which that camp is about Christ's elect saints that reign with Him with the rod of iron.


I agree we are one in Christ, but not that Gentiles now become Israel, rather, Gentiles and Jews, in Christ, become one new man, Ephesians 2:15. And then as @farouk said.

I think the "children of promise" in relation to Israel refers to the children of Isaac as opposed to the children of Ishmael. Not all children of Abraham. And not all the children of Isaac, but Jacob, the chosen one. And not all the children of Jacob, but those believing (Romans 9).

Not what Paul was saying. He was specific that the children of the flesh is not the issue, meaning Salvation is not of the flesh. Can't use one's birth as the means of being saved.

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

KJV

That "children of the promise" is about God's Promised Salvation by Faith first given to Abraham. Paul made this plain in Romans 4, and in Galatians 3. Did that Promise go through Ishmael, or the Gentiles in OT history? No, of course not. God didn't choose Ishmael, but He chose Isaac for the Promise to continue through. And it then went to his son Jacob, and then to Jacob's son Joseph, and then to Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh where it stopped being transferred (i.e., where it still is among today). This is about God's Birthright. Why do you think the phrase, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob is so used in God's Word? It's because of God's Birthright and its transfer among His chosen, and its main treasure is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those of Israel whom God chose to preserve The Gospel passed it according to their generations, until Jesus came to fulfill it on His cross, and then The Gospel was sent to all peoples, and the children of Israel were first ordained to take it to the nations, and I also mean the Christian west sending ambassadors to the nations, those ambassadors including ten lost tribe Israelites in The Gospel.

1 Chron 5:1-2
5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV




I am curious about something, is it your view that all who believe are in fact physical descendants of Abraham? Not trying to put words into your mouth, but I know some think that, wondering if you do.

Much love!

No, of course not. Paul wasn't talking about physical descendants with those of Faith like Abraham having become the "children of Abraham." Paul was speaking spiritually, spiritual children, because the Promise is by Faith, not by the law.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,705
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sounds like we're on the same page on Israel's regathering. Can that be? ;) Saved physical descendants of Jacob regathered to the promised land to live in the blessings of the Sinai covenant during the kingdom age.

So, you are... on Darby's pre-trib rapture dispensationalism. No such ideas written in God's Word. The old covenant is DEAD, no more.

But will Jesus sit down in His Kingdom on earth in new Jerusalem, with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and His faithful Church for supper at His table? Yes, His elect servants will. All others will not be allowed to approach His table. Only the Zadok (The Righteous) will be allowed near Him in that future millennial time within the sanctuary of Ezekiel (see Rev.3:9 compared with Ezek.44 & 47).


And therefore those living in Israel now are not the fulfillment, say, of Ezekiel 39's prophecy to regather all of Israel. That prophecy is fulfilled with all are gathered, none left behind, and they never have to leave again.

That's right. Ezekiel 37 (I think you meant 37, not 39), has not yet happened, but is preserved for the day of Christ's return to earth. Those in today's Israel represent only the old "house of Judah". God promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem (1 Kings 11). And in Jeremiah 24, He promised He would eventually bring Judah back to the holy land (along with certain foreigners), and not remove them again. That prophecy appears to have been fulfilled in 1948, unless the Jews in today's land of Israel are scattered again, which I don't see happening.


So basically your understanding is that there is are Jews and Gentiles being saved now into a single group of God's children, and that at the end of the age, the physical descendants of Jacob to survive the great tribulation, these, in believe and rebirth, return to the promised land to inherit the plot of ground promised.

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

KJV

Isa 49:22
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
KJV


The believing remnant of the seed of Israel will be gathered together with the believing Gentiles, to the lands of Israel. That is Christ's faithful Church today, and will be then also. Christ's Church isn't going anywhere before or during the future "great tribulation" either. The Church is to go through the tribulation. The gathering to Jesus is to both believing Jew and believing Gentile as one body, just as Paul showed Christ's Church is that one body per Galatians 3.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Actually, it will be all of Israel, after God turns his gaze back upon them and redeems them. If they are secular before they are redeemed then their testimony of God's forgiveness will be worth listening to by everyone else, even the so called Christians.
Jesus says we are to preach to the whole world (gentiles) until the end of the world. This is when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. Today's Jews are in fact gentiles, broken off from Israel (us), some of whom will be saved as gentiles for the father's sake.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reggie Belafonte
D

Dave L

Guest
No. Jesus is to see those who believe in him seeds.
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9:6–8)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

“Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” (Matthew 21:43) (HCSB)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reggie Belafonte

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,501
21,647
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, you are... on Darby's pre-trib rapture dispensationalism.

Darby? Never read much of him.

That's right. Ezekiel 37 (I think you meant 37, not 39),

I was actually thinking of ch. 39, at the end of the chapter.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

In that it says, "left none of them any more there", to me this is only fulfilled when ALL Israelites are returned to the Land.

Much love!
mark
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,501
21,647
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But in reality, our Lord Jesus was pointing to the abodes of the priests in the Ezekiel temple (millennial temple) in Jerusalem, on earth after His return (Ezek.40-47).

This is interesting, I've never heard this idea before.

Much love!
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,823
113
68
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Your so-called "10 extinct tribes" are not... Jews.

And your next statement is way... off base from what my topic has been. My original post is clear, so are my later posts. Go back and read the Bible Scripture I point to with my statements.

Tell your objections to islam. They will treat any identified descendants of the 10 tribes as jews.
And you are still incaperble of answering my question.
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9:6–8)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

“Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” (Matthew 21:43) (HCSB)

Your shopping cart verses. Now address the rest of them on the subject