There were always born again believers in the OT. But now Israel is believers only.
What Was Israel Ordained For?
- Thread starter Davy
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Again, because Pentecost had not happened, and because the Spirit in the Old Testament did not indwell in the same sense as after Pentecost, the term 'born again' - very much a New Testament concept - does not apply in the same way in the Old Testament.
Hi Davy,
Farouk's post 112 sums up my understanding on this point.
I agree we are one in Christ, but not that Gentiles now become Israel, rather, Gentiles and Jews, in Christ, become one new man, Ephesians 2:15. And then as @farouk said.
I think the "children of promise" in relation to Israel refers to the children of Isaac as opposed to the children of Ishmael. Not all children of Abraham. And not all the children of Isaac, but Jacob, the chosen one. And not all the children of Jacob, but those believing (Romans 9).
I am curious about something, is it your view that all who believe are in fact physical descendants of Abraham? Not trying to put words into your mouth, but I know some think that, wondering if you do.
Much love!
Where was it, Jer.31 I think, where God said if the ordinances of the sun and moon depart, then the seed of Israel will cease being a nation before Him?
It's the remnant of the believing seed of Israel that will be gathered under Christ back to the lands God promised their fathers, not rebellious of the seed.
Ezek 20:38
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV
God says there He will bring those rebels out of the country where they were scattered, but He doesn't say where He will place them, just outside the land of Israel somewhere. That is another pointer that Christ's Church of the believing seed of Israel, along with the believing Gentiles, will inherit the land of Israel per the promises first given Abraham.
Also Christ's millennial reign regarding the nations must be considered. During that reign there will be converts to Jesus, and it will be those I believe that will make up God's final Salvation Plan of Gentiles nations surrounding the land of Israel. Those nations will still exist during Christ's reign, as the end of Zechariah 14 does reveal.
And how do you see the land promise? Does Israel possess the promised land in the age to come?
Much love!
You wish that were so, but it isn't. There's a reason why the name Ephraim is specifically left out in Rev.7, just as there is a reason why the tribe of Dan also is left out there. But in Ezekiel 48 they are in final added back in.
Here's how it works (abbreviated version) All in Hebrews 11 had faith because they were born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. In Acts, born again old covenant Jews embraced the New Covenant and received the gift of the Holy Spirit they already had. The gift is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes from repentance at a New Covenant level. Far more stringent than the OT form of repentance.
I would not use the term 'born again' in the same way to describe Old Testament saints, because they lived - as the justified - before Pentecost.
Salvation was no different than for us today. The law was for wicked people to force them into submission under threat of death or exile. Abraham, Job, Abel or any other born again did not need it. But actually fulfilled it through love for God and people.
My focus was on what is the church, rather than to question the true believer's justification by faith, in whatever dispensation.
Not at all. Stephen calls them the church in the wilderness.
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4)
But it's not the post-Pentecost church (which ought to be a tautology); it's not the same, indwelt body of believers in the risen Lord from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds that the Holy Spirit has indwelt since Pentecost.
Sounds like we're on the same page on Israel's regathering. Can that be?
Saved physical descendants of Jacob regathered to the promised land to live in the blessings of the Sinai covenant during the kingdom age.And therefore those living in Israel now are not the fulfillment, say, of Ezekiel 39's prophecy to regather all of Israel. That prophecy is fulfilled with all are gathered, none left behind, and they never have to leave again.
So basically your understanding is that there is are Jews and Gentiles being saved now into a single group of God's children, and that at the end of the age, the physical descendants of Jacob to survive the great tribulation, these, in believe and rebirth, return to the promised land to inherit the plot of ground promised.
Is that right?
Much love!
Mark
It's exactly the same. The only difference is that God broke of the unbelievers leaving only the believers.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
No mark, it is not about me either. It is about what is actually being said in Genesis in the Abrahamic Covenant.
As Stephen stated in his defence before he was stoned to death, that God had spoken to Abraham the first recorded part of the Abrahamic Covenant, as found in Genesis,12:1-3, while he was still in the city of Ur in Babylon probably when he was around 50-52 years of age and he left the land of Babylon shortly afterwards and travelled with his father in his father's household to Haran where Terah again set up his household at Haran. It was not until Abraham had set up his own household, servants and flocks over the next 20-23 years that Abraham then left his father's household/presence and began his journey south towards the Land of Canaan where Abraham then spent the rest of his days.
This covenant is recorded in Genesis.12:1-3: -
1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to an earth that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves."
In Abraham’s first recorded encounter with God, God tells Abraham: -
(a.) to leave the land where you are living,
(b.) to leave his relatives,
(c.) to leave your father’s house,
(d.) to go to a “righteous” earth that he, God, would show him,
(e.) that Abraham’s descendants would become a great nation,
(f.) that God himself would bless him, (g.) that God would make Abraham’s name great and
(h.) because of that he would be a blessing,
(i.) that he (God) would bless those that bless him
(j.) and curse those who curse him, and
(k.) that Abraham would become a blessing for all the families of the earth.
Then in Genesis.12:7b God said, "To your descendants I will give this earth."
In Abraham’s second recorded encounter with God, God undertakes to give Abraham’s descendants the earth using the same Hebrew word “hā·’ā·reṣ”.
Then in Genesis.13:14-17:-
14 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Lift up your eyes, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all of the earth which you see I will give to your descendants{seed} for a period of undefined time. 16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your descendants also can be counted. 17 Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, in order for Me to give it.
In Abraham’s third recorded encounter with God, God promises to give Abraham’s descendants all the land of the earth around Abraham, that he had/could/would see, and He commands Abraham to go and walk through all the land. God also promises to make all his descendants many, such that their number would be like the dust of the earth and impossible, or at the very least, difficult to count. The promise is to give the land to Abraham’s descendants for a defined period of time where the start and finish of being given the land where Abraham has walked is not defined. The actual description of this land is found in Genesis.15:17-21.
It is important to note that in the third encounter, the same Hebrew word “hā·’ā·reṣ” is traditional translated as land, then as Earth and as then as earth again. If the context of the second and third use dictates that “hā·’ā·reṣ” should be understood to have the meaning of “the earth” then why has the first “hā·’ā·reṣ” in the Genesis.13:14-17 been translated as “land”?
Marks, you have said that you have done a word study on “hā·’ā·reṣ”, but I would suggest that you have not gone deeply enough in the word study to understand the importance of what I am posting.
Shalom
Actually, it will be all of Israel, after God turns his gaze back upon them and redeems them. If they are secular before they are redeemed then their testimony of God's forgiveness will be worth listening to by everyone else, even the so called Christians.
It has been translated as "land" because that is exactly what it means in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant. The whole earth is definitely NOT in view in this passage:
GENESIS 15
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: [THE BOUNDARIES OF THE LAND CLEARLY STATED]
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. [ALL THESE NATIONS WITHIN THOSE BOUNDARIES]
So how about getting back on track and properly understanding the Abrahamic Covenant, which includes promises to the twelve tribes of Israel (indicated as "thy seed" over here)?
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