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Featured What Was Israel Ordained For?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Davy, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    "All nations would be blessed."
     
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  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    You can't redefine what the Bible defines.

    There are promises to Israel. There are promises to apply to Israel and Gentiles. There are promises that apply only to Abraham.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The promises to Abraham were to him and his seed Jesus. And in Jesus all nations are blessed.
     
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  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    What about the promises to Abraham about Abraham?

    There are promises to his seed and promises to his seeds.

    You are big into shopping cart theology.
     
  5. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Umm... I don't understand the term 'The Church (Israel)'...
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    In the NT, Jesus = Israel with those who believe in him.
     
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  7. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Jesus = Abraham's seed and those who believe in him.
     
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  8. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Jesus = Israel (Abraham's seed) and those who believe in him.
     
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  9. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I don't get that from any verse in the NT... :)
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    It works like this. Paul says Jesus is Abraham's seed. Not the physical Jews. And then he says believers are also his seed. In the OT Israel = Abraham's seed. So we are Abraham's seed according to scripture, and not the broken off unbelievers.

    “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Romans 9:6–8)

    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

    “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

    “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” (Matthew 21:43) (HCSB)
     
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  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    This is meant literally...

    Rom 9:6-8
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    KJV

    Paul never would have said that if he didn't mean it. The believing Gentiles inherit with believing Israel, just as Paul said there is neither Jew nor Greek, but ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Our Lord Jesus didn't promise to gather His Church in splits. See Isaiah 54. And notice Ephesians 2 he said the believing Gentiles through Christ have come nigh to the 'covenants' and 'promises'. What actually happened was the covenants and promises went to scattered Israel where The Gospel took hold. I think I've already pointed to this humpteen times on this forum, and few care to believe the Scripture prophecies on this, like what our Lord Jesus taught in the parable of the husbandmen in Matthew 21.
     
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  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    But the faithful remnant by faith is not conterminous with the church; Matthew 24, Galatians 6, etc., speak of a future, restored remnant of Israel after the Rapture.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    You are trying to understand Israel according to Dispensational theory. But if you consider Romans 11, Paul says God removed the unbelievers from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. And only through faith, will any broken off be reattached.
    “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:23–24)
     
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  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Another point I've tried to make on this forum is about the name... 'Israel'. The Jews want to try and make that name solely a national heritage label for blood birth, but actually it is a name for the Gospel Salvation. God gave this name to Jacob because he wrestled with the Angel and prevailed, for the word means to prevail with God's help, pointing to His Salvation ultimately. And then God's blessings that were first given Abraham were passed on from Isaac to Jacob. That involves God's Birthright promises first given to Abraham, including the Promise by Faith which God gave Abraham, which is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. So God's concept of Israel has always been about His Salvation, not just blood birth. Paul showed this in that Rom.9 example when he said those of the Promise are counted for the seed, and in Galatians 3 when he said those of Faith have become the children of Abraham.
     
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  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I would see Hebrews on the contrary as saying that the Old Testament system has been set aside, rather than the church supposedly being an institutional continuity of the old system. I belong with the carcasses of the dispensed with sacrifices burned outside the camp. But the Lord Jesus is there with His heaven-bound pilgrims.

    "For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

    Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach."

    (Hebrews 13.11-13)
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The Congregation of the Lord (church), and the Church (Congregation of the Lord) are the same.

    “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)
     
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  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    This was before Pentecost, therefore it was not the church in the sense of the New Testament. In Acts the word ecclesia can even be used to describe an unruly rabble, so it's mere use in another context in Acts 7.38 does not somehow negate the birthday of the church at Pentecost, Acts 2.
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I think it possible that since it comes from Hebrew shalah pointing to peace or tranquil, it may have originally pointed to the Prince of peace, our Lord Jesus. But Gen.49:10-11 are more clear that it's about our Lord Jesus. I think our Heavenly Father cleared up any doubt there Who is being spoken of.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    It's the same church only no longer a State church of believers and unbelievers. Jesus removed the unbelievers and grafted believing gentiles into their place.
     
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  20. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    My reading of Hebrews is fundamentally different. As regards the Old Testament system, the law was changed (Hebrews 7.12) and what we now have is better than the law (Hebrews 7.19).

    The justified, on the other hand, are indeed present in different dispensations.
     
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