What wisdom is this?

[Ziggy]

I have to come to the conclusion that God's forgiveness and Grace can overcome any obstacles.
Even murder. Even lies. Even stealing.. etc..
And I already know this. I have no issues with God's grace and mercy.
I see it when they are going to stone a woman for adultery according to the law,
and yet Jesus with his grace and mercy tells the woman, go and sin no more.
He does not say my grace is sufficient don't worry about adultery.. i got your back.

That's what I'm hearing in this forum and that's what's making me look real hard into where these thoughts are coming from.
People make mistakes, God forgives us, He is merciful and gracious.
Man on the other hand has no mercy.. just stone her. They left out the mercy, not God.
Doesn't mean you can keep on doing whatever and blame it on the flesh.
You actually have to take responsibility for your actions.
GRRRR...
There is a LAW that says thou shalt not commit adultery.
I hear people saying.. there is no law..
What the ^&*! are you talking about????
We do not live by lawlessness.

Paul is in a tough situation. The whole country is under Roman rule.
They don't like the Jews..
Paul is on his rounds gathering up the very people that hate the Jews.
They're not going to convert if it means they have to get circumcised.
But that was a covenant with Abraham not Moses.
And even though we know it is spiritual.. even so we still have circumcision today.
We still have Baptism today.
We still celebrate holidays today.
But keep the law??
Hell no.. we don't want that.

Here's the bottom line..
If God can forgive Paul, he can forgive Cain.
Because God is no respecter of persons.

Paul likes to preach to you on one hand what you shouldn't do, while doing the same thing on his other.
That's called hypocricy.
Frankly, I don't like Paul.. He makes me suspicious.
And in the time and climate of that day.. considering the overbearing of Rome on the church.
He came in slaughtering and scattering the sheep.
So don't blame me for calling him a raven wolf, It's exactly what he did.
Did he see what he says he saw, or did he say it to find out where they were?
Did he finally become converted? Maybe.
Did he set up Peter and make him look bad in front of his own disciples?
Sure did. He could have pulled him aside and discussed it but oh no.. he had to make a spectacle of himself.
And then preach about being humble...

And seeing what I see coming down our horizon... I have to wonder..
where did the church that Jesus start, go wrong?
In the same place it all began.. under the control of Romans

 

[Ziggy]

"In truth, I see Paul as the wolf who comes in and scatters the sheep." In truth, it is the wolf that comes and sows doubt into The Word of God as you have just done. If you see Paul as a wolf then perhaps your words need to be put into the other religion section of the forums.

What's wrong with this section?
I'm studying..

Do you think Paul caused some discord when he walked into a room full of Peter'e disciples and
put him down right there in front of everyone?
How embarrasing it must have been for Peter.

But I'm supposed to walk on eggshells because it's Paul?

umm.. nope
what's good for the goose as they say

Thank you for your reply though
HUGS

 

[Taken]

Thank You
I'm reading Acts chapter 17 and I find he has a good argument.
I like it when people HELP me..
It's much appreciated.
This guy has just been a thorn in my side for years.
And I'm trying to work it out.

People want to poke me though... in this thread.. Ima POKE BACK..

Thank You Taken
HUGS

Inanutshell...I love this...

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Chosen By the Lord, unto the Lord...who can argue?

Saul, of the Tribe of Benjamin, Well educated, Devouted to God, Pharisee.
Paul, a Roman citizen, easy for him to freely walk About among Jews and Gentiles.

A well known hard-nosed underdog to Christ Jesus, and chosen to...
Exalt God, Christ Jesus...among Gentile's , who knew neither God or Christ, and among Jews who knew God and were beginning to know About Christ Jesus.

Imagine Jews and Gentiles in ONE crowd...
Ha... would make the tension between Democrats and Republicans look like child's play!

I think Paul is awesome. I like his forward style of no bars hold about his personal history with Christ and passion even the most unlikely can become a great Servant of the Lord.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Ziggy]

I go through the OT and time after time I see Israel getting diverted and falling in with the pagan countries around them.
They are chastised over and over. They come back, they wander off, they come back, they wander off.
I think.. How? How can they just fall into idolatry of other nations?
How can they just forget how they got where they got?
How did it happen..
And then I see a little bending here, a little bending there of the laws and even things that Jesus said
being slightly turned a little this way and a little that way.
And if given enough time, those little bendings and turns can really lead one astray from the place they started.

Snakes in the garden been twisting God's word since day one. Don't worry bout it, go ahead and eat, God knows it's good for ya,
He just don't want you to be as smart as he is.
And people not questioning authority is how this world is in the condition it is today.
Oh wait, they did question.. I think they called it the Inquisition.

The Inquisition, in historical ecclesiastical terminology also referred to as the "Holy Inquisition", was a group of institutions within the Catholic Church whose aim was to combat heresy. Torture and violence were used by Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics.

It's coming back folks.. call it whatever you want. The reset. the purge. Agenda 2030, the New Normal..
put whatever name you like.. it's headed our way.

And I know we got some Catholic folk on here, so I'm treading as gentle as I can.
I love the people, I despise the hyprocricy of the "Establishment" and it's teachings.

I have to admit I don't see Paul after his walk down the Strait Street, acting like he did when he was standing over Stephen approving of his being stoned to death. But he still has some serious character flaws.. like we all do.
I still see some things being bended and twisted.. and a little over time goes a long ways.
And I'm not making this up. Look how many different denominations there are, and we all read the same book.
And you think I'm causing doubt or division?
Look around.. it's already there, has been for ha.. about 450 years... time is getting short..hmm

I'm not the kind that just grabs on someone's coattails and says lead me which ever way you go.
The only coat tails I hold onto is the Lord's.
And If I see a controversy that bothers me.. I share it. If you don't agree or don't like what I say..
I don't like the Democrat party. I love the people. Most the people aren't the same as the party.
I have my issues with the Republican party as well.
I don't see people getting all worked up over being a heretic if you don't like a party.
I got issues with Paul.. same thing. For a long time too.

Some people Love Obama, some people love Trump.
Should the opposition to an individual be silenced because you don't like what they have to say about someone?
That is called censorship..
And seeing I'm not attacking any individuals here personally I don't see a reason why I can't discuss my
my dilemma openly.
All I can suggest is, if you don't agree with me or my questioning authority, you can go to another thread.
No one is making anyone sit and listen to me ramble.

Thank you

 

[kcnalp]

No. This is not your fight. You are sowing spiritual confusion and dissension with this thread. You have accused the apostle Paul of being a wolf. Which means that you are the wolf out to scatter and devour the sheep.

BEWARE OF WOLVES IN SHEEPS' CLOTHING.

Amen brother!

 

[kcnalp]

Go drink some wine..
and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

Attacks on our Bible are every Christian's business.

 

[Taken]

I have to come to the conclusion that God's forgiveness and Grace can overcome any obstacles.
Even murder. Even lies. Even stealing.. etc..
And I already know this. I have no issues with God's grace and mercy.


That's what I'm hearing in this forum and that's what's making me look real hard into where these thoughts are coming from.

I hear people saying.. there is no law..
What the ^&*! are you talking about????
We do not live by lawlessness.

Law is a very, Very Broad Term.
To Condense that Term in an Applicable (to oneself), requires one to Know the BOUNDARIES of Jurisdiction.

Boundaries, can be multiple Things. Land, a Race, Tribe, Citizen, Member, etc.

If you are not part of or within a particular jurisdictional Boundary...the Law that governs what you are not in or a part of...DO NOT Govern you, ARE irrelevant to you....moot...Do Not apply to you.

I have Never been a Hebrew, or Of any Tribe of Israel, not ever of the Jewish Race, Not a citizen of a county outside of the US, never a citizen of Federal enclave, never a Hindu, Muslim, Catholic.....

There Thousands OF Laws...that I am NOT subject to, or Governed by...in and out of the US....because there is No Application to me.

There are Hundreds of Biblical Laws that I am not Subject to....because there is no Application to me.

Positive Laws are designed for Force and Effect.
Negative Laws are designed for prohibitions and penalties.

When a person Scripturally says there is no Law...what they mean is...there is no Hebrew/Israel List of Laws that Apply to Them.

Jesus "fulfilled" the OT Law(s)...effectively making the Penal violation of Those (OT) Laws, moot, (without effect).

However Jesus did not destroy the OT Laws, or the OT penalty laws.

What that means...Hebrews/ Jews pick and choose...IF they elect to KEEP abiding by OT Laws, They can.
Some Do, Some Don't, Some are Saved, Born Again, Messanic Jews, who participate in Jewish Customs and Christian Customs.
Gentile's by decree were never under OT Law.

The OT is full of...Laws, Statutes, Precepts.
-Laws...oral, customs, may be written.
-Statutes...written, Commands
-Precepts...guidance for Gods preferred method of behavior Between men, for man's most beneficial outcome.
Neh 9:14

There Two Commands Jesus identifies in the NT.

Matt 22:
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Brief...Love Rules Relationships.
•God First in all Things.
•Mankind Second in All things.

Two Grand Commands/ Rules...
Can a man accomplish That?

Reflect on Adam...with One Rule...he failed.
Reflect on OT Hebrews...many Rules...failed.
Reflect on OT Tribes...many Rules...failed.

Some men..? Try their best...fail.
Many men? No consideration...fail.
God "with men", Faithful to God Jews..do well
Christ "Gods Power" "IN" a man...can not Fail.

The Converted...do not operate solely by their own Power...(like unconverted men).

Are they ^ Perfect? No. But they are
Perfect-ED according to Gods Standards and Method and acceptance.
They can NEVER "Again" Sin Against The Lord God.

Can the Converted have discourse with other men...Absolutely. Disagree, Reject behavior, Separate, etc.

That ^ is not Hate...but rather Scripturally Taught to make Godly ways First, above all other things.

Inanutshell...any Scriptural Law, Statute that Does Apply to you...may not Apply to another.
And visa versa.

Jesus' chosen 12 desciples...
We're Jews, chosen by a Jew, to teach/preach to Jews, and then all the Tribes of Israel.
•Grain of Salt for the Gentile, who is Not A Jew.
• Paul is the Primary One....ONE man...for all the Gentiles!

Primary Reason? Provoke the Jews to Jealousy....of Gentiles Embracing...and Jews not.

Rom 10:
[19] But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom.11
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them tojealousy.

Jews were Supposed to be Gods chosen Godly Teachers TO the World...whoops.

In effect...most Of ISRAEL (Tribes) now have to Wait...until all Gentile's ...who Choose to Surrender/Heartfully Commit and Enjoy the Guaranteed and Sure...LIFE, SALVATION and QUICKENED SPIRIT....NOW and Forever....
Have Chosen....Before (that unknown Day) of WHEN Tribulation Begins.

Behaviors of men...lying, cheating, stealing, etc.
All men do that...
We do not know all things.
We consistently say...next week I'm going to...blah, blah...then don't or can't...lied.
Ever walk out of an office, with an office pen...eh, theft!
Ever purchase from a store and rush out, not noticing they gave you A dollar too much in Change...cheated the store.

The big pictures hangs on INTENT...
Trying, plotting, to deceive, by lying, cheating, stealing....
Some people Delight in doing those things...
Others feel guilty merely because the idea popped into their mind.

That ^ is the Difference Between those OF this World...and those NOT OF this World.

Others exaggerate...Others speak with Confidance...Others Can't express a Thought.
It's a whole gambit.
Inasmuch as people like to pretend we are all equal and the same...we're not...thus the word, individual!

An individuals assured Security is IN Christ The Lord Jesus....period.
And not a big secret...that is Not the Majority of men for the Last 2,000 years, to this day.

And not a big Secret...those "OF this world"..
Endlessly Promote and Attempt to Force the Whole World TO BE "OF this World"...and "THEY" in the Commanding Seat.

And RIGHT NOW...the US (under a Trump Administration) IS the last "WORLD" Hold Out, Rejecting Submission, OF America and her Citizens being Forced, TO BE subjected TO a World Power.

Prophecy before our eyes.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Peter says the unstable and the unlearned wrest with Paul and his epistles.
That his words are hard to be understood. And I find myself hearing:
God is not the author of confusion.

consider Peters words there saying ‘the unstable and the unlearned wrestle’ with Paul and his epistles.

first) what epistle? 2 Corinthians 3:1-6 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? [2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: [5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


2 Peter 3:15-17 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

not just Paul’s but ‘as they do also the other scriptures’ ...unto their own destruction. ’unstable’ and wrestling. Would this include the endless debated parables also? The unstable there reminds me of: a double minded man is unstable in all his ways, driven and tossed, carried about by every wind of doctrine. Not sure how you see Paul as the confusion but instead the confusion being unstable and tossed about, double minded, carried about by every doctrine. that wrestles with not only Paul but with other scriptures also. The verse goes on from ‘unstable’ to ‘unlearned’. 1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

‘...in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

those unlearned... consider the ‘unskilled’
Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Just an opinion but maybe Peter is a witness to those yet carnal, carried about by every wind of doctrine, unstable ...do wrestle with ‘the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God;’ as they do with other scriptures, not just Paul’s.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

consider this but under the law to Christ,
...I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Opposite maybe from being tossed and carried about by every wind...but instead although free Made a servant unto all men ‘under the law of Christ’

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Day of rest
A common theme in criticism of Hebrew Shabbat rest was idleness, found not to be in the Christian spirit of rest. Irenaeus (late 2nd century), also citing continuous Sabbath observance, wrote that the Christian "will not be commanded to leave idle one day of rest, who is constantly keeping sabbath", and Tertullian (early 3rd century) argued "that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all servile work always, and not only every seventh-day, but through all time". This early metaphorical interpretation of Sabbath applied it to the entire Christian life.

Ignatius, cautioning against "Judaizing" in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, contrasts the Jewish Shabbat practices with the Christian life which includes the Lord's Day:

"Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness. But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days. "

The 2nd and 3rd centuries solidified the early church's emphasis upon Sunday worship and its rejection of a Jewish (Mosaic Law-based) observation of the Sabbath and manner of rest. Christian practice of following Sabbath after the manner of the Hebrews declined, prompting Tertullian to note "to [us] Sabbaths are strange" and unobserved. Even as late as the 4th century, Judaizing was still sometimes a problem within the Church, but by this time it was repudiated strongly as heresy.

Sunday was another work day in the Roman Empire. On March 7, 321, however, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest from labor, stating:

"All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish. "

While established only in civil law rather than religious principle, the Church welcomed the development as a means by which Christians could the more easily attend Sunday worship and observe Christian rest. At Laodicea also, the Church encouraged Christians to make use of the day for Christian rest where possible, without ascribing to it any of the regulation of Mosaic Law, and indeed anathematizing Hebrew observance on the Sabbath. The civil law and its effects made possible a pattern in Church life that has been imitated throughout the centuries in many places and cultures, wherever possible.

Many Christian theologians believe that Sabbath observance is not binding for Christians today, citing for instance Col. 2:16–17.

Some Christian non-Sabbatarians advocate physical Sabbath rest on any chosen day of the week, and some advocate Sabbath as a symbolic metaphor for rest in Christ; the concept of "Lord's Day" is usually treated as synonymous with "Sabbath". This non-Sabbatarian interpretation usually states that Jesus's obedience and the New Covenant fulfilled the laws of Sabbath, the Ten Commandments, and the Law of Moses, which are thus considered not to be binding moral laws, and sometimes considered abolished or abrogated. While Sunday is often observed as the day of Christian assembly and worship, in accordance with church tradition, Sabbath commandments are dissociated from this practice.

Col. 2:16–17.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

NLT:
So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

Don't worry bout it...
The word Sabbath is listed 137 times in the Bible.
Because Israel didn't worry bout it, they were punished many many times.
If the Sabbath is only of a shadow of something yet to come,
What need is there for a sunday rest then?
Also I also find this rather ironic:
"All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish. "

It frequently happens that no other days (what is this day) the FIRST DAY are better adapted for planting grain in the furrows or the vines in the trenches.. So the First Day of WORK is given by heavenly providence. And only the (slaves) country people are able to work in it.
No Saturday or sunday rest for you folks.. you have to take it up with Pharoah. Maybe Moses come save ya.. hehehe...

Nope..
grain and vines... bread and wine.. have to keep those pagan sacrifices flowing.. But wait.. the ordinances was nailed to the cross.
If so why do we still keep them??
And who are they kept for?
"All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun.

Deu 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deu 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Col. 2:16–17.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So what exactly is Paul saying here?
If he says no man does that include the Romans who judged the Christians for keeping these things?
Is he saying, just do what the romans do and don't worry bout it?

say it again:
NLT:
So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

Was he warning the church , that this condemnation of their Judaistic observances were going to be condemned?
What rules.. you mean God's laws?

moving on..

I find it ironic that you do not trust Paul who was accepted by the Apostles as a fellow apostle and the apostle to the gentiles and then quote Gentiles believers who would have learned nearly all of the faith from Pauline writings!

The church through teh centuries has accepted Paul as both Apostle and writer of INspired Scripture- nearly half of the new Testament!

 

[WaterSong]

Not true. Jesus appeared to Ananias, which Luke recorded, about Paul.

Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.​

Paul was accepted into the church based upon that.

Furthermore, Peter, and others acknowledged Paul:

2Pe_3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.​

James, Peter, Barnabas and others acknowledge Paul:

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:​

The Holy Ghost acknowledges Paul:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;​

It is not true that Jesus did not appear to Saul but rather to Ananias.

Jesus appeared to Saul when Saul and his two companions were on the road to Damascus. This is recorded in Acts 9 beginning at verse 4. In that account the two traveling companions with Saul did hear the voice that spoke to Saul. However, in Acts 22 wherein this encounter is spoken of, the two traveling companions we are told did not hear the voice.

God spoke to the apostle Ananias while Saul remained blind after the Damascus road encounter. And this so as to have Ananias tell Saul of God's plans for him and what he'd suffer bringing the gospel to the gentiles. When Ananias did as God commanded and went to Saul and gave him God's message it was then that the scales that blinded Saul fell away.

It is important also to realize the apostles of Christ never once referred to Saul as an apostle. Rather, they referred to him as brother. There is a difference. Whereas Saul referred to himself as apostle over 20 times in his letters.



Further

 

[DNB]

What's wrong with this section?
I'm studying..

Do you think Paul caused some discord when he walked into a room full of Peter'e disciples and
put him down right there in front of everyone?
How embarrasing it must have been for Peter.

But I'm supposed to walk on eggshells because it's Paul?

umm.. nope
what's good for the goose as they say

Thank you for your reply though
HUGS

You are indignant of the fact that Paul openly rebuked Peter for playing hypocrite?
Are you offended that Peter was the first to convert the Gentiles, an extremely paramount revelation that he received from God, and then even after that experience, he turns his back on them for fear of the Jews, the one's who, arguably, killed Jesus?
You are employing an extremely narrow and naive view on this matter, and altogether with Paul.

 

[farouk]

consider Peters words there saying ‘the unstable and the unlearned wrestle’ with Paul and his epistles.

first) what epistle? 2 Corinthians 3:1-6 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? [2] Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: [5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


2 Peter 3:15-17 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

not just Paul’s but ‘as they do also the other scriptures’ ...unto their own destruction. ’unstable’ and wrestling. Would this include the endless debated parables also? The unstable there reminds me of: a double minded man is unstable in all his ways, driven and tossed, carried about by every wind of doctrine. Not sure how you see Paul as the confusion but instead the confusion being unstable and tossed about, double minded, carried about by every doctrine. that wrestles with not only Paul but with other scriptures also. The verse goes on from ‘unstable’ to ‘unlearned’. 1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

‘...in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

those unlearned... consider the ‘unskilled’
Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Just an opinion but maybe Peter is a witness to those yet carnal, carried about by every wind of doctrine, unstable ...do wrestle with ‘the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God;’ as they do with other scriptures, not just Paul’s.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

consider this but under the law to Christ,
...I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Opposite maybe from being tossed and carried about by every wind...but instead although free Made a servant unto all men ‘under the law of Christ’

@VictoryinJesus Goes to show the sheer value of meditating on wholesome Biblical doctrine.... Philippians 4.8

 

[friend of]

Dude Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles. That's his ministry and it IS approved by God. It is God ordained.

 

[farouk]

I go through the OT and time after time I see Israel getting diverted and falling in with the pagan countries around them.
They are chastised over and over. They come back, they wander off, they come back, they wander off.
I think.. How? How can they just fall into idolatry of other nations?
How can they just forget how they got where they got?
How did it happen..
And then I see a little bending here, a little bending there of the laws and even things that Jesus said
being slightly turned a little this way and a little that way.
And if given enough time, those little bendings and turns can really lead one astray from the place they started.

Snakes in the garden been twisting God's word since day one. Don't worry bout it, go ahead and eat, God knows it's good for ya,
He just don't want you to be as smart as he is.
And people not questioning authority is how this world is in the condition it is today.
Oh wait, they did question.. I think they called it the Inquisition.

The Inquisition, in historical ecclesiastical terminology also referred to as the "Holy Inquisition", was a group of institutions within the Catholic Church whose aim was to combat heresy. Torture and violence were used by Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics.

It's coming back folks.. call it whatever you want. The reset. the purge. Agenda 2030, the New Normal..
put whatever name you like.. it's headed our way.

And I know we got some Catholic folk on here, so I'm treading as gentle as I can.
I love the people, I despise the hyprocricy of the "Establishment" and it's teachings.

I have to admit I don't see Paul after his walk down the Strait Street, acting like he did when he was standing over Stephen approving of his being stoned to death. But he still has some serious character flaws.. like we all do.
I still see some things being bended and twisted.. and a little over time goes a long ways.
And I'm not making this up. Look how many different denominations there are, and we all read the same book.
And you think I'm causing doubt or division?
Look around.. it's already there, has been for ha.. about 450 years... time is getting short..hmm

I'm not the kind that just grabs on someone's coattails and says lead me which ever way you go.
The only coat tails I hold onto is the Lord's.
And If I see a controversy that bothers me.. I share it. If you don't agree or don't like what I say..
I don't like the Democrat party. I love the people. Most the people aren't the same as the party.
I have my issues with the Republican party as well.
I don't see people getting all worked up over being a heretic if you don't like a party.
I got issues with Paul.. same thing. For a long time too.

Some people Love Obama, some people love Trump.
Should the opposition to an individual be silenced because you don't like what they have to say about someone?
That is called censorship..
And seeing I'm not attacking any individuals here personally I don't see a reason why I can't discuss my
my dilemma openly.
All I can suggest is, if you don't agree with me or my questioning authority, you can go to another thread.
No one is making anyone sit and listen to me ramble.

Thank you

@Ziggy I do love this verse:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

 

[Ziggy]

Attacks on our Bible is every Christian's business.

I'd be more concerned with the ones burning them in the streets than someone trying to find answers.
I'm not attacking the Bible, I am concerned about Paul.
I got this thing about someone starting out killing and enslaving new born christians. A church which Jesus himself began.
And warned us to be careful of those that would come in his name and deceive them. As I look at the mariad of denominations today it is clear that most of the division is found in Paul's epistles. You have OSAS, Baptism, Circumcision, every argument on this forum is always concerning Paul's epistles.
I'm not the one causing the division. That began 2000 years ago. I'm old, but not that old.
I'm not attacking any person on the forum. I'm concerned that Paul's intentions were to lead men to Rome and not to God.
I also see some here willing to work with scripture to give me better understanding,
and those that would rather attack the one who has concerns.
I'm not interested in your (general audience included) personal attacks.
Apparently I stumbled across something that concerns a lot of people, but are unwilling to share their concerns,
because they might get a rebuke.
That's not my headache. I have nothing to hide.
A lot of the responses have helped and I thank those who are patient and open to a real discussion.
That shows character.
It's nice to know that when a fellow christian falls into a ditch, a few will even throw a rope, while the others snear and walk on by.

So anywhoo kcnalp,
That's all I got
I'm not attacking the Bible
I'm concerned about some of Paul's teaching because some of it don't line up with scripture.. sometimes.
And we was warned..
that's all

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Ziggy, reading through all of your post here. For the sake of having a conversation on your topic. Do I understand you correctly ...are you suggesting Paul is responsible for the state of the churches today?

addressing a few concerns you presented. One being Stephen. Only a perspective but what stands out to me is that Stephen overcome evil with good in ‘lay this not to their charge’. Question: do you think Stephen would rejoice that his enemy (Saul) was overcome and won by Christ?

You mentioned where Paul said something about a good conscience and how could he say ‘good conscience’ with what happened to Stephen. Maybe depends on what is a good conscience 1 Timothy 1:15-20 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. [16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. [17] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. [18] This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; [19] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [20] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


“Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering,...”
That Jesus Christ might show forth all long suffering ... for this cause “I obtained mercy”. Whose long suffering ...Pauls? (Imo) no, instead To show forth the long suffering (patience, endurance, forbearance) of God: (Romans 9:22-23) endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,... now Pauls words again for this cause(as a pattern of long suffering, forbearance, patience, to endure ... “I obtained mercy”. Showing forth the long suffering of “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [8] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.”

More simply put: to show Gods long suffering of Saul (and all the dung) that he might make known the riches of his glory “mercy” on Paul.

do agree though. Paul maybe would have said he was a wolf not sparing the flock of God. That he had wasted, consumed, destroyed, had his conversation in the world and the lust of the flesh, and was included in ‘and such were some of you’ but do we not also see manifested: long suffering, patience, forbearance and endurance of Christ Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, [16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

 

[kcnalp]

I'd be more concerned with the ones burning them in the streets than someone trying to find answers.
I'm not attacking the Bible, I am concerned about Paul.
I got this thing about someone starting out killing and enslaving new born christians. A church which Jesus himself began.
And warned us to be careful of those that would come in his name and deceive them. As I look at the mariad of denominations today it is clear that most of the division is found in Paul's epistles. You have OSAS, Baptism, Circumcision, every argument on this forum is always concerning Paul's epistles.
I'm not the one causing the division. That began 2000 years ago. I'm old, but not that old.
I'm not attacking any person on the forum. I'm concerned that Paul's intentions were to lead men to Rome and not to God.
I also see some here willing to work with scripture to give me better understanding,
and those that would rather attack the one who has concerns.
I'm not interested in your (general audience included) personal attacks.
Apparently I stumbled across something that concerns a lot of people, but are unwilling to share their concerns,
because they might get a rebuke.
That's not my headache. I have nothing to hide.
A lot of the responses have helped and I thank those who are patient and open to a real discussion.
That shows character.
It's nice to know that when a fellow christian falls into a ditch, a few will even throw a rope, while the others snear and walk on by.

So anywhoo kcnalp,
That's all I got
I'm not attacking the Bible
I'm concerned about some of Paul's teaching because some of it don't line up with scripture.. sometimes.
And we was warned..
that's all

Paul got his doctrine direct!
Acts 9:15 (NKJV)
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

 

[Ziggy]

not just Paul’s but ‘as they do also the other scriptures’ ...unto their own destruction. ’unstable’ and wrestling. Would this include the endless debated parables also? The unstable there reminds me of: a double minded man is unstable in all his ways, driven and tossed, carried about by every wind of doctrine. Not sure how you see Paul as the confusion but instead the confusion being unstable and tossed about, double minded, carried about by every doctrine. that wrestles with not only Paul but with other scriptures also. The verse goes on from ‘unstable’ to ‘unlearned’. 1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another

I'm looking at it coming from his teachings, his wisdom, that he recieved at the feet of a Pharisee in those days.
We were warned of the leaven.. the puffing up, the which Paul himself said a thorn was given him lest he become too
proud. Jesus said He would build His church on Peter. On the other hand you have Paul, building His followers, his church. You are "OUR" epistle... no we are God's epistle.. and many such other things where he makes himself more than the message. That's what concerns me.

I understand Paul is going into rough territory. And I'm sure he has to wrestle his own thoughts from what he has learned
to what he is learning.. and maybe that's what I'm seeing play out. Even he admits he is having a battle between the inner man and the flesh.
O wretched man that I am... I think we can all relate to that at times.

I saw your highlight.. this is what I hear:

Quote: 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

I suppose Paul is made the fisherman that disciples were told to be. I will make you fishers of men.
But he uses camouflage as bait.

to them that are under the law, to them that are without the law.... but not without law to God...but under law to Christ
so Here Paul is making a seperation between law to God and law to Christ... are there 2 different entities with laws?
I'm not the double minded one here.. Paul makes it divided..

you all take those two verses.. all by itself start a thread.. see how many come from different opinions on it..
Do it.. really do it...
Verse 20 and 21...

I'm going to do it... Just for curiosity.. how many divisions there will be with just those 2 verses alone.

Hugs
VictoryInJesus
Thank You

 

[Ziggy]

Paul got his doctrine direct!
Acts 9:15 (NKJV)
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

Says Paul

 

[kcnalp]

Says Paul

And Luke.