What's Required For Staying In Heaven?

[Webers_Home]

.
According to the anti-OSAS faction, it's possible lose one's salvation. So
then, wouldn't how to stay in heaven be a far more important question to
ask than how to get there?

And what about the "endure to the end" crowd? Well; supposing they
manage to endure to the end. Then what? Do they have what it takes to
endure to eternity?

This reminds me of Oregon's early pioneers. Getting to Oregon was the easy
part; and even that was brutal. But when the pioneers got Oregon, their
difficulties were only just beginning; and many of them didn't even survive
their first winter in the northwest.

How many anti-OSAS people are confident that they'll survive their first year
in heaven? Well; if they're not even confident they'll get there in the first
place, then they sure as heck can't be confident of staying as I'd imagine
anti-OSASers can be kicked out of heaven for the very same reasons that can
block them from heaven.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Rach1370]

Not that I'm anti-OSAS....but quick question....
Are you talking about the 'intermediate' state....we're told in the 'new heaven and new earth' we'll be 'raised in a new body', which most Christians believe will be sin free. Most believe, however, that in the time between death and our resurrection, we'll be in 'heaven' with Christ....in spirit form. Are you asking how they will 'last' there, without the new, sinless bodies?
While I have come across people who don't believe in eternal assurance of salvation....I don't know that I've ever come across someone who doesn't think that 'death' is the finish line! Except maybe Universalists...who believe that after death we still have the ability to come to Christ....but even then, they're taking the slant that once dead our eyes will be opened and we will sin no more.

Have you ever come across someone who thinks we will be able to sin after death? Or are you just trying to follow their logic to it's end??

 

[aspen]

loving perfectly, as we were created to do.

 

[KingJ]

.
According to the anti-OSAS faction, it's possible lose one's salvation. So
then, wouldn't how to stay in heaven be a far more important question to
ask than how to get there?

And what about the "endure to the end" crowd? Well; supposing they
manage to endure to the end. Then what? Do they have what it takes to
endure to eternity?

This reminds me of Oregon's early pioneers. Getting to Oregon was the easy
part; and even that was brutal. But when the pioneers got Oregon, their
difficulties were only just beginning; and many of them didn't even survive
their first winter in the northwest.

How many anti-OSAS people are confident that they'll survive their first year
in heaven? Well; if they're not even confident they'll get there in the first
place, then they sure as heck can't be confident of staying as I'd imagine
anti-OSASers can be kicked out of heaven for the very same reasons that can
block them from heaven.

Buen Camino
/

Good question. Reminds me of the question I always ask... God is impartial. So how does an impartial God justify sending the thief next to Jesus to heaven immediately whilst us who have made the same commitment to Jesus are left on earth for a longer period to serve Him at the risk of losing our salvation. We do more then the thief and run a humungous risk for it?

However I still don't believe in OSAS. There is plenty scripture we cannot ignore on losing salvation. Just as there is plenty scripture on God keeping us. We need to put them together and conclude the truth. Namely we can lose our salvation but it is extremely hard. Just as consistent actual / physical adultery takes sinking to a depth of hatred for our spouse and results in what God said must not be separated, being separated.

God is working with each of us. When we die and go to be with Him, we know we have made it. Until then we are simply foolish to think we have 'made it'. 1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall. My race being longer then the thief next to God can always be for the possibility that God is simply not convinced that my heart is after His as David's was Acts 13:22. Unless we have encounters with God like Moses did, how can any of us ignore 1 Cor 10:12? Sure we have John 10:27 but if that is not consistently accompanied by Phil 2:12 'working out salvation in fear and trembling' we could easily be guilty of making our own image of God and imitating His voice in our minds.

So to answer your OP Weber, I believe we have made it.... when we have made it. When we have made it (raptured / actually with Jesus / God), we are covered and eternally sanctified 1 Cor 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

 

[Webers_Home]

we're told in the 'new heaven and new earth' we'll be 'raised in a new body', which
most Christians believe will be sin free

What profit is a sin-free body without a sin-free personality? In other words:
if liars are blocked from heaven, then it only stands to reason that liars
would be kicked out too; and so would people prone to conceit, deceit,
dissembling, vanity, narcissism, greed, envy, resentment, rivalry, quarreling,
getting even, chafing, confrontation, demeaning comments, cold shouldering,
name calling, fault finding, recriminations, toxic rejoinders, sarcasm, thoughtless
remarks, haughtiness, snobbery, elitism, condescension, selfishness, egotism,
gender bias, gossip, sniping, rebellion, insolence, and any number of other
negative attitudes and behaviors common to human nature.

In the year 1520, Pope Leo X issued a proclamation called the Bull Of Exurge
Domine. In the proclamation Leo stated, in so many words, that death is the
termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes purgatorial
souls secure of final happiness. In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants
of a purgatory are unable to sin; subsequently, they are 110% sinless and don't
commit new sins while undergoing purgatorial discipline and purification.

I'm sure you can see right off just how essential it would be for souls in a
purgatory to be unable to sin, because were they able to sin, then Rome's
promise in CCC.1030 of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians would
be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred
in a purgatory would add time to the penitent's original sentence; with the
very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would
never be released.

I'm not saying there really is a purgatory. I'm just referring to Leo X in order
point out what should be obvious to any thinking person: viz: if people don't
exist in heaven with a sin-free personality; then they can't possibly survive
for very long in a realm whose king requires 110% sinless perfection from His
subjects in order to stay-- no excuses, and no exceptions.

Buen Camino
/

 

[FHII]

Who has ever been thrown out of heaven? Satan. Ok, then don't do what he did.

 

[Webers_Home]

1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall. how can
any of us ignore 1 Cor 10:12? Sure we have John 10:27 but if that is not consistently
accompanied by Phil 2:12 'working out salvation in fear and trembling' we could easily be
guilty of making our own image of God and imitating His voice in our minds

You have a very difficult decision to make. Christ is the head of his church
and according to John 3:18 and John 3:34-36 it is hell-worthy to disbelieve
what he says. However I have never yet seen a passage stating that it is
hell-worthy to disbelieve what Paul says except maybe Gal 1:8-9.

So then, when an apparent contradiction arises between what Christ says
and what Paul says; you have to decide who's sayings you're going to listen
to and whose sayings you're going to have to look into a little further.

Peter said that Paul's writings are difficult to understand; viz: easily
misunderstood. (2Pet 3:16). So I'm willing to bet a tank of premium
gasoline that you have understood Christ correctly while misunderstanding
Paul completely.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition.

Seeing as how you insist that those who listen to Jesus' message, and
believe in God who sent him, can be condemned for their sins-- viz: lose
their salvation --then you leave me no option but to conclude that you have
cast a vote of no-confidence in what Jesus said in the verse above; and
according to John 3:18 and John 3:34-36 that is a hell-worthy way to treat
the head of the Lord's church.

Now, I'm not saying that you're going to hell. I'm only saying that you have
gone and done something that's hell-worthy; but that's not all.

According to John 10:27-29 Jesus gives his own sheep eternal life and
promises they will never perish. By insisting that Jesus sheep can lose their
salvation-- viz: perish --you are casting a vote of no-confidence not only in
his promise; but also in his competence as a shepherd. You are in effect
saying that Jesus can't be trusted to protect the sheep that God entrusted
to his care. And that's not all. You are also saying that the Lord's sheep are
not only strong enough to overpower their shepherd; but also strong enough
to overpower God.

†. John 10:28-29 . . No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father,
who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out
of my Father's hand.

You see what a can of worms you opened for yourself by watering down the
Lord's words with Paul's?

Unless we have encounters with God like Moses did, how can any of us ignore 1 Cor 10:12?

Now we come to one of the supernatural elements of the Lord's church that
gets very little attention these days from the anti-OSAS faction.

†. Rom 8:16 . .The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's
children.

The koiné Greek word for "testifies" is summartureo (soom-mar-too-reh'-o)
which means to corroborate. Weber's defines "corroborate" as: to support
with evidence or authority. In other words: a corroborating witness is one
that's called upon to verify the validity of evidence already in motion.

Now the trick is; the Spirit doesn't testify in the court's hearing; no, the
Spirit testifies in the hearing of the "our spirit" of Rom 8:16. In other words;
the Spirit's corroborating testimony is on a strictly personal level: one-on-one.

You know how I "know" I'm God's kin? Well first off, the Bible tells me I'm
God's kin; but more importantly: the Spirit assures me that what the Bible
says about my position in God's family is valid. Well, in my book; the
Spirit's corroboration is way, way more effective than a burning bush.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Tropical Islander]

Who has ever been thrown out of heaven? Satan. Ok, then don't do what he did.

What did he do? I can think of Rebellion. And presumed Godlikness.
Establishing his own law, that says there is "no law is the only law"

and of course tempting the nations that will bring desolation to the cities

Anything else?

 

[KingJ]

You have a very difficult decision to make. Christ is the head of his church
and according to John 3:18 and John 3:34-36 it is hell-worthy to disbelieve
what he says. However I have never yet seen a passage stating that it is
hell-worthy to disbelieve what Paul says except maybe Gal 1:8-9.

So then, when an apparent contradiction arises between what Christ says
and what Paul says; you have to decide who's sayings you're going to listen
to and whose sayings you're going to have to look into a little further.

Peter said that Paul's writings are difficult to understand; viz: easily
misunderstood. (2Pet 3:16). So I'm willing to bet a tank of premium
gasoline that you have understood Christ correctly while misunderstanding
Paul completely.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition.

Seeing as how you insist that those who listen to Jesus' message, and
believe in God who sent him, can be condemned for their sins-- viz: lose
their salvation --then you leave me no option but to conclude that you have
cast a vote of no-confidence in what Jesus said in the verse above; and
according to John 3:18 and John 3:34-36

Jesus says we must carry our cross. Paul referred to Christianity as a race we are running. No conflict whatsoever. Jesus said in Matt 24:13 that we must endure to the end.

This is not worth debating though!!! . If you saw someone continuing in extreme / mortal sins (as mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 5 for example / the type that get you kicked out of the church) you would want to preach the gospel to him and help him. You would believe he was never truly saved (I hope). We would both agree that he is en-route to hell.

 

[Webers_Home]

If you saw someone continuing in extreme / mortal sins (as mentioned by Paul in
1 Cor 5 for example / the type that get you kicked out of the church) you would
want to preach the gospel to him and help him. You would believe he was never
truly saved (I hope). We would both agree that he is en-route to hell.

I don't know who these "we" are for whom you presume to speak but I am
not one of them. Jesus testified at John 5:24 that those who listen to his
message, and believe in God who sent him, have eternal life and will never
be condemned for their sins.

Webster's defines "never" as: not ever, at no time, not in any degree, not
under any condition.

If it's Paul's sayings you prefer over Jesus' sayings, then there's Rom 8:1 for
your consideration, which states: There is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life
set me free from the law of sin and death. Surely you don't dispute Paul
seeing as how it's his sayings, rather than Christ's, that are the mainstay of
your beliefs.

If there is one thing that all sheep need from a shepherd it's protection from
their own stupidity. If Jesus cannot protect his sheep from so-called mortal
sins, then he doesn't deserve to be put in charge of the sheep his Father
entrusted to his care. He needs to be fired and replaced by someone just a
tad more responsible.

Jesus testified at John 5:24 and John 10:27-29 that he gives his sheep
eternal life. That is an interesting kind of life. According to 1John 1:1-2, it's
an infinite kind of life; viz: eternal life is impervious to death, decay, and the
aging process. Ergo: eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin; which are
defined at Rom 6:23 as death. In other words: eternal life is a kind of life
that not even God can kill. If that were not true, then it would be possible
for God to commit suicide.

Now, one thing that people working out their salvation can never obtain is
eternal life. You know why? Because it's a gift; which is a blessing that comes
with no strings attached.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So go ahead; debate and debate and debate and debate until your keyboard
melts for all I care; but you won't be debating with me; no, you'll be
debating with the shepherd of the Lord's sheep; and according to John 3:18
and John 3:34-36, that's not a smart thing to do. In point of fact, I would go
so far as to wager that if people in heaven were to debate with Christ, they
wouldn't last very long up there.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

Jesus says we must carry our cross. Paul referred to Christianity as a race we are running. No conflict whatsoever. Jesus said in Matt 24:13 that we must endure to the end.

This is not worth debating though!!! . If you saw someone continuing in extreme / mortal sins (as mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 5 for example / the type that get you kicked out of the church) you would want to preach the gospel to him and help him. You would believe he was never truly saved (I hope). We would both agree that he is en-route to hell.

What did He mean by carrying our cross? Did He mean to maintain our salvation through the works carried out in the flesh? If so, how can one arrive at that from one sentence?

Funny that people mention carrying on in extreme sins. James said that if a person should fail on any one point of the law he is declared guilty of all the law. The issue is that if we are to be judged on the basis of law we will all fall short, whether we are in extreme sin or just a little accidental sin. In contrast,the present key to life is to come under the new covenant by faith in His work and His sacrifice. When that happens, we are given everlasting life, having passed from death to life (John5:24), and as Jesus promised in that verse, we shall not come under judgment (to condemnation).

Here is the formula for life (for lack of a better term). No judgment = no condemnation. This is all due to the sacrifice at Calvary. So hopefully this should shed some light as to how we carry our cross. The old man is declared dead in Christ, having been positionally crucified with Him. Taking him off the cross is not advised. Keeping him there by faith is how we carry our cross. We do it by maintaining the same faith that got us saved in the first place.

A person who has never truly been saved is he who has never truly received Christ by faith. Therefore he will automatically be identified with sin. But sin is not the measurement that determines one's successful salvation. In fact, Jesus encountered some whom He called "My servants" in Rev.2.20, who were in sexual immorality. Seems to me He did not have the same viewpoint as you, that these could never have been saved in the first place. How did He deal with them? As He also confirmed in Rev. 3:19, He rebuked and chastened them, warning that He would cast them into great tribulation unless they repented of their deeds. That is what chastening can look like. It is no fun. But it is not the same as total rejection.

I think we should let Him deal with sin His way, and not superimpose our own human logic on the new covenant.

 

[Dodo_David]

Belief in the controversial doctrine of "Once saved always saved" isn't a litmus test for determining who will be in Heaven.

 

[KingJ]

Funny that people mention carrying on in extreme sins. James said that if a person should fail on any one point of the law he is declared guilty of all the law.

Frustrating how people think sin = sin for a Christian. Sin = sin for the unsaved. As smallest sin = sin. But for a Christian a small sin = small rebellion and a big sin = big rebellion.

The issue is that if we are to be judged on the basis of law we will all fall short,

Are you implying that there was nobody in Abrahams bosom? God's law from day 1 is exactly the same as it is today. This is what you don't 'get'. Lets look at the OT law properly. All failed Exodus 20 but that does not mean they failed God's law in Psalm 51:17. God says Exodus 20 etc and He says Psalm 51:17 etc.

whether we are in extreme sin or just a little accidental sin. In contrast,the present key to life is to come under the new covenant by faith in His work and His sacrifice. When that happens, we are given everlasting life, having passed from death to life (John5:24), and as Jesus promised in that verse, we shall not come under judgment (to condemnation).

God is impartial. If He has made it easier to come to heaven NT that makes Him partial. The only difference is that now when we do Psalm 51:17 God reveals Himself as Jesus and we don't need to go to Abrahams bosom. We go straight to heaven. We can hence enter fellowship with God the Father immediately. Jesus said there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ. To be ''in-Christ'' He has to have our hearts / He has to be on the throne of our lives. When we continue in an extreme sin the sincerity of repentance becomes the chief issue! The worse the sin the greater the depth of rebellion. Just like consistent adultery results in divorce... because we can never trust our spouse... their actions really hurt us as we know they no longer love us. Their sin has caused their heart to change ownership. Jesus doesn't kick us out or leave us. Jesus doesn't lose us if we wonder from His flock. We transform from a lamb into a wolf. Jesus removes wolves. Just as Paul said in 1 Cor 5 to kick them out. You think God doesn't do the same when He told Paul to do it?

Here is the formula for life (for lack of a better term). No judgment = no condemnation.

That sounds right but it is clear heresy 1 Cor 11:31.

A person who has never truly been saved is he who has never truly received Christ by faith. Therefore he will automatically be identified with sin. But sin is not the measurement that determines one's successful salvation. In fact, Jesus encountered some whom He called "My servants" in Rev.2.20, who were in sexual immorality. Seems to me He did not have the same viewpoint as you, that these could never have been saved in the first place. How did He deal with them? As He also confirmed in Rev. 3:19, He rebuked and chastened them, warning that He would cast them into great tribulation unless they repented of their deeds. That is what chastening can look like. It is no fun. But it is not the same as total rejection.

God examines our hearts and our minds. He knew their hearts were right. Hence, they would accept chastening and come right when confronted with the truth that sexual immorality upsets God. If they continued after they knew the truth...Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

I think we should let Him deal with sin His way, and not superimpose our own human logic on the new covenant.

Agreed. Lets use scripture only with proper hermeneutics! Not a few scriptures plus opinion leaving him with a half truth.

If it's Paul's sayings you prefer over Jesus' sayings, then there's Rom 8:1 for
your consideration, which states: There is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life
set me free from the law of sin and death. Surely you don't dispute Paul
seeing as how it's his sayings, rather than Christ's, that are the mainstay of
your beliefs.

If there is one thing that all sheep need from a shepherd it's protection from
their own stupidity. If Jesus cannot protect his sheep from so-called mortal
sins, then he doesn't deserve to be put in charge of the sheep his Father
entrusted to his care. He needs to be fired and replaced by someone just a
tad more responsible.

You keep wanting to believe I prefer Paul's teaching over Jesus's. I accept both. I have proven this. To accept one only would make me a false teacher.

Jesus the shepherd CAN protect us from mortal sins. But He DOES NOT over ride our free will to reject Him, if we choose to stay in them after many warnings. As long as I am living I have the power to choose this day whom I will serve. I am married to my wife, but if I wanted to, I could leave her. It would rip her to pieces. Hence I would need to sink to a depth of intent / hatred beyond the depth I sank to when I first met her. Read my post above to Willie for further explanation on this please.

Now, one thing that people working out their salvation can never obtain is
eternal life. You know why? Because it's a gift; which is a blessing that comes
with no strings attached. Jesus testified at John 5:24 and John 10:27-29 that he gives his sheep
eternal life. That is an interesting kind of life. According to 1John 1:1-2, it's
an infinite kind of life; viz: eternal life is impervious to death, decay, and the
aging process. Ergo: eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin; which are
defined at Rom 6:23 as death. In other words: eternal life is a kind of life
that not even God can kill. If that were not true, then it would be possible
for God to commit suicide.

You believe God is partial? that He chooses who to the gift to? Are you a Calvinist? The gift of eternal life comes to those who believe in Him. Believing in Him = choosing to be aware of those things that please Him and doing them to the best of our ability over ignoring them. In the NT we can simplfy it and say those who have faith in Jesus being Lord. A revelation the Holy Spirit gives 1 Cor 12:3 us AFTER we do James 4:8 by following Matt 16:24; Phil 2:12; 1 Cor 11:31 and Psalm 51:17.

So go ahead; debate and debate and debate and debate until your keyboard
melts for all I care; but you won't be debating with me; no, you'll be
debating with the shepherd of the Lord's sheep; and according to John 3:18
and John 3:34-36, that's not a smart thing to do. In point of fact, I would go
so far as to wager that if people in heaven were to debate with Christ, they
wouldn't last very long up there

I am not debating with you, Let alone Christ. I am showing you the scripture you are ignoring. So that going forward you have no excuse for teaching a half truth.

 

[Dodo_David]

A Christian is not going to Hell because that person doesn't believe the controversial doctrine "Once saved always saved".

Once we are in Heaven, we will have perfect knowledge of Spiritual truth. So, we will know which controversial doctrines are correct and which aren't.

 

[KingJ]

A Christian is not going to Hell because that person doesn't believe the controversial doctrine "Once saved always saved".

Once we are in Heaven, we will have perfect knowledge of Spiritual truth. So, we will know which controversial doctrines are correct and which aren't.

Agreed. Or we can whilst down here, just take all scripture, put it together and then conclude.

 

[Webers_Home]

I am showing you the scripture you are ignoring. So that going forward you have no
excuse for teaching a half truth.

And I am showing you the scripture that YOU are ignoring-- worse; you are
ignoring not just scripture but Christ. You should be ashameful of yourself
for treating him that. I wish I could reciprocate and say that you're teaching
half truth; but you are teaching twisted truth, which in reality isn't truth at
all; it's insidious.

Buen Camino
/

 

[KingJ]

And I am showing you the scripture that YOU are ignoring-- worse; you are
ignoring not just scripture but Christ. You should be ashameful of yourself
for treating him that. I wish I could reciprocate and say that you're teaching
half truth; but you are teaching twisted truth, which in reality isn't truth at
all; it's insidious.

Buen Camino
/

So what you are saying is that following Paul's teaching to the letter is insidious? and you justifying your root Christian belief on only the gospels.

Yes, Jesus will NOT lose a sheep. But a person who continues in mortal sin is NOT a sheep but a wolf. This is hardly rocket science. When you imply the wolves will be saved, you cause people to think they are fine in their sin. That is exactly what the devil wants, not Jesus.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

.
According to the anti-OSAS faction, it's possible lose one's salvation. So
then, wouldn't how to stay in heaven be a far more important question to
ask than how to get there?

And what about the "endure to the end" crowd? Well; supposing they
manage to endure to the end. Then what? Do they have what it takes to
endure to eternity?

This reminds me of Oregon's early pioneers. Getting to Oregon was the easy
part; and even that was brutal. But when the pioneers got Oregon, their
difficulties were only just beginning; and many of them didn't even survive
their first winter in the northwest.

How many anti-OSAS people are confident that they'll survive their first year
in heaven? Well; if they're not even confident they'll get there in the first
place, then they sure as heck can't be confident of staying as I'd imagine
anti-OSASers can be kicked out of heaven for the very same reasons that can
block them from heaven.

Buen Camino
/

I think you are forgetting something very, very important here.

You are assuming that when we "get to heaven" we will be in the same position that satan was.

But we won't. We will have something that satan actually lacked back then - perfect knowledge.

Satan obviously did not have knowledge about what the consequences of his fall would be until after he had fallen. (Similarly, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of "good and evil" and could not have known what death actually was until after they fell).

We on the other hand have a better understanding of what the consequences of sin are, and what death is. However, today we still "see through a glass, darkly" and therefore are still capable of failing to reach the goal of our faith - the salvation of our souls. We DO need to endure to the end in order to gain the kind of perfect knowledge that will keep us from falling!

 

[Webers_Home]

We will have something that satan actually lacked back then - perfect knowledge.

I seriously doubt that so-called "perfect knowledge" will stop people from
doing the very things that prevent most people from getting into heaven in
the first place.

In other words: if liars are blocked from heaven, then it only stands to
reason that liars would be kicked out too; and so would people prone to
conceit, deceit, dissembling, subterfuge, fraud, vanity, fault-finding,
narcissism, greed, envy, resentment, rivalry, quarreling, getting even,
chafing, confrontation, demeaning comments, ridicule, cold shouldering,
name calling, heckling, recriminations, toxic rejoinders, sarcasm, thoughtless
remarks, haughtiness, snobbery, elitism, condescension, selfishness,
egotism, gender bias, gossip, sniping, rebellion, insolence, and any number
of other negative attitudes and behaviors common to human nature.

†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

So you see; the problem isn't ignorance: the problem is human nature.
What's to be done about that? (Hint: John 3:3-8)

Buen Camino
/

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I seriously doubt that so-called "perfect knowledge" will stop people from
doing the very things that prevent most people from getting into heaven in
the first place.

In other words: if liars are blocked from heaven, then it only stands to
reason that liars would be kicked out too; and so would people prone to
conceit, deceit, dissembling, subterfuge, fraud, vanity, fault-finding,
narcissism, greed, envy, resentment, rivalry, quarreling, getting even,
chafing, confrontation, demeaning comments, ridicule, cold shouldering,
name calling, heckling, recriminations, toxic rejoinders, sarcasm, thoughtless
remarks, haughtiness, snobbery, elitism, condescension, selfishness,
egotism, gender bias, gossip, sniping, rebellion, insolence, and any number
of other negative attitudes and behaviors common to human nature.

†. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

So you see; the problem isn't ignorance: the problem is human nature.
What's to be done about that? (Hint: John 3:3-8)

Buen Camino
/

I don't think we will have "human nature" in God's kingdom. If it is human nature that causes us to sin then human nature will be weeded out of God's kingdom:

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." (Matt 13:41)

Those who have resurrection bodies will not have the same kind of flesh as we have (1 Cor 15:39), so the "sins of the flesh" will not be a problem for them. At present we have a "body of sin", which according to Romans 6:6 will be done away with so that we will no longer will be "slaves to sin". Until then we have to make the choice between whether or not our lives are controlled by the Spirit, which sanctifies us on our journey, or being controlled by the sinful nature, which reaps destruction.

Neither being born again nor being controlled by the Spirit means that we will never fall. However, such falling does not identify who we are. Notice how Paul says

"Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." (Romans 7:20)

Consequently, we will find ourselves doing things we don't want to do, but we need to have Paul's attitude towards it. Conduct alone does not identify us. What I think does identify us is where our focus is and what our attitudes are.