Bodily and visibly are not in question! What is in question is the difference Scriptures shows us between a few disciples of Christ seeing His ascension to heaven, and every eye seeing Him descending from heaven.
When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
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Bodily and visibly are not in question! What is in question is the difference Scriptures shows us between a few disciples of Christ seeing His ascension to heaven, and every eye seeing Him descending from heaven.
We must "limit Christ's words," rwb, when Christ Himself does. Jesus spoke specific things to those specific disciples at a specific time about a specific time. Preterists understand this and give honor to HIS words and HIS timing. We don't "attempt to" do this. We do it. Nearly all preterists were once futurists. But there came a time when they had to come to terms with the time statements and time words. There are over 100 of them!
Please note that there are around TWENTY YE's in Matthew 24:1-34. They are not directed at us and they do not involve us. How many abominations of desolation did Daniel speak of? They were to see it. How many great tribulations did Jesus say there would be? They were to live through it. In fact, John referred to himself as "a fellow partaker in THE tribulation" (Rev. 1:9)--the tribulation that was depicted in the vision he was given. Nowhere in Jesus' words to those disciples does He even hint that anyone but they should look for the signs of His coming. Nowhere in Jesus' words to those disciples does He indicate that any other generation except theirs would live to endure and experience all the things He had told them! Unique, specific things have specific timing and cannot be repeated.
You have a dilemma with the context, and it comes from your understanding of the NATURE of His coming, the Resurrection, and the Judgment. It is your paradigm that forces you to mishandle the time statements. They must be acknowledged honestly and in their context. When one finds himself having to manipulate, ignore, or redefine plain words, he is wise to try to understand why he feels compelled to do so.
TIMING DICTATES NATURE. In other words, when the Scriptures are clear that something took place at a specific time in history and it involved specific people, we must adjust our understandings.
As I already told you: The emphasis in that passage is not on Christ's body or His visibility. You must understand what His ascension meant to those disciples right there at the time. They were Jews who understood the meaning of "clouds" from their OT writings. We must not approach a book written predominantly by Jews with our western mindset. We must get into their skin.
THEY were with Jesus when He offered up to the Father His high priestly prayer to have His glory restored to Him (John 17). THEY would have understood His ascension as the answer to that prayer. It has nothing to do with His body or His visibility. It had to do with GLORY--as depicted by the clouds!
God came in judgment in the OT on clouds of glory.
"An oracle concerning Egypt, See, the LORD rides on a swift CLOUD and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them." (Isaiah 19:1)
"Now I pronounce my judgments against them. Look! He advances like the CLOUDS, His chariots come like a whirlwind..." (Jeremiah 4:12-13)
"Praise the LORD, O my soul...He makes the CLOUDS His chariot and rides on the wings of the wind." (Psalm 104:3)
"Wail and say, 'Alas for that day! For the day is near--a day of CLOUDS, a time of doom for the nations.'" (Ezekiel 30:3)
It's about the CLOUDS. He left in clouds of glory; He returned in clouds of glory.
I agree, Christ warns the first century Jewish disciples of things that would come to them. Are these words spoken to them of no value for all of Christ's disciples to come? Are the things written of Old and the discourse not meant to be an example for the whole church?
But notice when Christ speaks of His coming again the "Ye" He spoke to encompasses "all the tribes of the earth" who "shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven". If the words of Christ must be limited to the first century disciples, why doesn't Christ continue to say "Ye shall see the Son of man coming"?
Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-26 (KJV) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Luke 21:26-27 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The problem for Preterists is the same as that of Christian Zionists dispensationalism. Being consumed with Israel of Old they fail to understand the Kingdom of Old that was a literal physical Kingdom of God is changed through Christ into a spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in when He came to earth a man. The Kingdom of Old being a physical Kingdom is no more. It is changed to the new Kingdom of God that is not of this earth, but is of heaven, and is not physical, but spiritual, and may only be entered into when man is born again of the Spirit of Christ in them.
You think clouds of heaven has to do with the weather?
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Many times in the NT, clouds are spiritual not natural, not rain clouds.
To a physical flesh and blood being, clouds are what they see associated with heavenly spirits.
They will see Christ returning with His glorified body, so then visible to them, coming with the clouds of heaven, containing spirits. Sprit of God, angels, people are forming these clouds. Of this 'cloud' are spiritual witnesses from heaven.
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Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 9:34
While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud.
Luke 9:35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 9:34
While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud.
Luke 9:35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Revelation 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Revelation 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
Ezekiel 1
4 Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man.
6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their [c]legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And each one went straight forward; they went wherever the spirit wanted to go, and they did not turn when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. 18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. 19 When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the [d]living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the [e]living creatures was in the wheels.
22 The likeness of the [f]firmament above the heads of the [g]living creatures was like the color of an awesome crystal, stretched out over their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings spread out straight, one toward another. Each one had two which covered one side, and each one had two which covered the other side of the body. 24 When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 A voice came from above the firmament that was over their heads; whenever they stood, they let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.
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Maybe some can see the connection of the Spirit, spirits, and heavenly clouds. In Ezekiel God is sitting on His throne above these clouds.
And the clouds of Heaven ferry Him about. We see similar language Christ uses when He says He is coming on the clouds of Heaven.
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
Ezekiel 1
4 Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man.
6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their [c]legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And each one went straight forward; they went wherever the spirit wanted to go, and they did not turn when they went.
13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches going back and forth among the living creatures. The fire was bright, and out of the fire went lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran back and forth, in appearance like a flash of lightning.
15 Now as I looked at the living creatures, behold, a wheel was on the earth beside each living creature with its four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they moved, they went toward any one of four directions; they did not turn aside when they went. 18 As for their rims, they were so high they were awesome; and their rims were full of eyes, all around the four of them. 19 When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the [d]living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up together with them, for the spirit of the [e]living creatures was in the wheels.
22 The likeness of the [f]firmament above the heads of the [g]living creatures was like the color of an awesome crystal, stretched out over their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings spread out straight, one toward another. Each one had two which covered one side, and each one had two which covered the other side of the body. 24 When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 A voice came from above the firmament that was over their heads; whenever they stood, they let down their wings.
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe some can see the connection of the Spirit, spirits, and heavenly clouds. In Ezekiel God is sitting on His throne above these clouds.
And the clouds of Heaven ferry Him about. We see similar language Christ uses when He says He is coming on the clouds of Heaven.
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The Glory Departs from the Temple
1 And I looked, and there in the firmament[a] that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 Then He spoke to the man clothed with linen, and said, “Go in among the wheels, under the cherub, fill your hands with coals of fire from among the cherubim, and scatter them over the city.” And he went in as I watched.3 Now the cherubim were standing on the [b]south side of the [c]temple when the man went in, and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and paused over the threshold of the [d]temple; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord’s glory. 5 And the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard even in the outer court, like the voice of Almighty God when He speaks.
Numbers 10:34
And the cloud of the Lord was above them by day when they went out from the camp.
Deuteronomy 33:26
“There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds.
Numbers 12:5
Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward.
Numbers 12:10
And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.
Numbers 14:14
and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.
Deuteronomy 31:15
Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.
1 Kings 8:11
so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
2 Chronicles 5:13
indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying: “For He is good, For His mercy endures forever,” that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud,
2 Chronicles 5:14
so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.
Psalm 68:4
Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name Yah, And rejoice before Him.
And the cloud of the Lord was above them by day when they went out from the camp.
Deuteronomy 33:26
“There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds.
Numbers 12:5
Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward.
Numbers 12:10
And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.
Numbers 14:14
and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people; that You, Lord, are seen face to face and Your cloud stands above them, and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.
Deuteronomy 31:15
Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.
1 Kings 8:11
so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
2 Chronicles 5:13
indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying: “For He is good, For His mercy endures forever,” that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud,
2 Chronicles 5:14
so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.
Psalm 68:4
Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name Yah, And rejoice before Him.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Pretribbers agree with that.
If you think only postribs go to heaven, then all the Christians that have died and lead a life free of horrible tribulation , are all going to hell.
There is a huge, huge, vast difference in the tribulation we suffer and the one that's coming.
BTW, The AC kills all refusing the mark.
So, no such thing as a Christian "going through " the trib.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
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