When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[Scott Downey]

are you declaring yourself to be of the elect?

Certainly!
What does John 5 say?

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

It's not the only confirmation of eternal life.

2 things are important, the hearing and the believing.
You wont be believing unless God has given you ears to be hearing Him.
And those who are of God hears what God says.

If you do not hear, your are not of God.
Example is John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[rwb]

Why can it not be the coming of Christ?

Because Christ shall return when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, and not before. Since the last trumpet did not sound the arrival of Christ coming in the clouds in the first century, and in fact the final trumpet still has not yet sounded, that which was near/soon to come to pass cannot be the second coming of Christ.

If Christ had come in the first century AD, why didn't the end when death shall be destroyed come?

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Why is there no record of Christ coming in the first century AD with all His saints?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Why is there no gathering of God's elect if Christ has already come in the first century AD? Why does Paul tell us that day of Christ was not at hand (near/soon) when he wrote to the Thessalonians? Why does Paul write that when Christ comes the man of sin would be revealed?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All who have been given to Christ from the Father will be gathered to Him on the last day. Since 'day' indicates time, why didn't time cease after Christ's coming in the first century AD as it shall when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the coming of Christ?

All who belong to Christ shall be raised up on the last day, why is there no record of the saints being gathered to Christ in the first century AD, if that is when He came again?

Scripture indicates that at His coming on the last day all who reject Him and refuse to receive His Word will be judged on the last day. How can this not be past if Christ has already come in the first century AD?

I find it very telling that you ignore the fact that the discourse though speaking of things that shall come to pass not only to the first century disciples, but also to every generation to follow them, changes from the singular "Ye" at Christ's coming to the inclusive "they" shall see Him coming in the clouds.

 

[HappyOma]

Because Christ shall return when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, and not before. Since the last trumpet did not sound the arrival of Christ coming in the clouds in the first century, and in fact the final trumpet still has not yet sounded, that which was near/soon to come to pass cannot be the second coming of Christ.

If Christ had come in the first century AD, why didn't the end when death shall be destroyed come?

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (KJV) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Why is there no record of Christ coming in the first century AD with all His saints?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Why is there no gathering of God's elect if Christ has already come in the first century AD? Why does Paul tell us that day of Christ was not at hand (near/soon) when he wrote to the Thessalonians? Why does Paul write that when Christ comes the man of sin would be revealed?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

All who have been given to Christ from the Father will be gathered to Him on the last day. Since 'day' indicates time, why didn't time cease after Christ's coming in the first century AD as it shall when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the coming of Christ?

All who belong to Christ shall be raised up on the last day, why is there no record of the saints being gathered to Christ in the first century AD, if that is when He came again?

Scripture indicates that at His coming on the last day all who reject Him and refuse to receive His Word will be judged on the last day. How can this not be past if Christ has already come in the first century AD?

I find it very telling that you ignore the fact that the discourse though speaking of things that shall come to pass not only to the first century disciples, but also to every generation to follow them, changes from the singular "Ye" at Christ's coming to the inclusive "they" shall see Him coming in the clouds.

That's a lot to deal with, but I am happy to.

You wrote: "Because Christ shall return when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, and not before. Since the last trumpet did not sound the arrival of Christ coming in the clouds in the first century, and in fact the final trumpet still has not yet sounded, that which was near/soon to come to pass cannot be the second coming of Christ."

And yet, Jesus said He would come on the clouds of heaven with His might angels "with a loud trumpet call" (Mat. 24:30, 31). He placed that coming in the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him. They were to see all those things in their "generation." When the timing is clear, rwb, we must be willing to reassess our understanding of the nature of His coming.

Your insistance upon a bodily return and visible return causes you to have conflict with the timing.

You wrote: "If Christ had come in the first century AD, why didn't the end when death shall be destroyed come?"

Didn't it? Jesus said "the end" would come in that generation. Peter wrote that the "end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). You and I are using the same terminologies with different meanings. What is the death Christ came to end? It was not physical death because all still die. Christ came to overcome the sin-death that separates us from fellowship with the Father. That fellowship was broken with the First Adam when he died to God. It was restored in the Last Adam. Death has been done away with; fellowship with God has come to all who believe.

You wrote: "Why is there no record of Christ coming in the first century AD with all His saints?" 1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Again, your unbiblical insistance on visibility and physicality gives you difficulty with the timing. Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 3:13, in its context. First of all, Paul is admonishing the saints in the church in Thessalonica to continue to abound in their love for one another. His prayer for THEM was that THEIR hearts would be "blameless in holiness before God" AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS. Paul wanted THEM to be blameless when Christ came--in their lifetime!

Furthermore, the word rendered as "saints" in this verse is the Greek word hagios. It means holy or hallowed or set apart. It can be and sometimes is translated as "saints" (45x out of 234x). It is mostly translated as "holy." (145). Threrefore, in this text it can refer to either "saints" or "holy angels." On the Mount of Olives, Jesus told those disciples that He was coming to them with His mighty ANGELS. Paul could have been referring to Jesus' words as expressed by the Synoptic writers. In any event, Paul clearly indicates that those Thessalonians were to see those "holy ones" at the "coming of the Lord Jesus Christ."

You wrote: Why is there no gathering of God's elect if Christ has already come in the first century AD? Why does Paul tell us that day of Christ was not at hand (near/soon) when he wrote to the Thessalonians? Why does Paul write that when Christ comes the man of sin would be revealed?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again, if you are willing to accept the undeniable meaning of "this generation," you will see that Jesus placed the gathering of the elect in the lifeetime of those disciples with Him. You continue to look for the physical, visible manifestations of things and then have touble with the timing.

Notice that Paul said "OUR gathering together unto him." They were to be gathered together with Him when He came. That gathering was the full establishment of His kingdom that is not of this world. Apparently, there were those who were saying that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME. The word normally rendered as "at hand" is not found in the text. In other words, those false teachers were not declaring that the Lord was soon to come--they were saying that He HAD come. Paul, then, tells the Thessalonian believers that Christ could not come until a "falling away" first happened and until "the man of sin" was revealed.

Please continue on to verse 6. Paul states that THEY knew "what was restraining HIM,"--even then ("now"). He was someone of THEIR day. The "day of the Lord" could not come until he--someone of their day--was revealed.

You wrote: "why didn't time cease after Christ's coming in the first century AD as it shall when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the coming of Christ?

Where does Scripture teach that time would cease?

Are you referring to Revelation 10:6 because that does not teach that "time" would be no more but, rather, that there would be no more delay in what was coming. That is the majority rendering of that verse. Daniel taught about the "time of the end" and not the "end of time." Big difference.

 

[rwb]

And yet, Jesus said He would come on the clouds of heaven with His might angels "with a loud trumpet call" (Mat. 24:30, 31). He placed that coming in the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him. They were to see all those things in their "generation." When the timing is clear, rwb, we must be willing to reassess our understanding of the nature of His coming.

Speaking to the disciples with Him, Christ did NOT tell them His visible coming would be visibly observed by them. Read and accept the words Christ spoke to them of His coming that THEY not YE "shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"They" and not "ye" indicate Christ, at His coming will send His angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This was not fulfilled in the first century AD, and it shall not be fulfilled until the last/seventh trumpet sounds there will be no more delay for time shall be no longer.

I don't have any conflict with the timing of the coming of Christ. It's telling how Preterists interpret the discourse literally until it comes to the coming of Christ on the last day when the seventh/last trumpet sounds. Instead of accepting what the text plainly tells us, you force a spiritual fulfillment, turning to Old Testament symbolism and allegory attempting to prove what cannot be biblically supported.

Didn't it? Jesus said "the end" would come in that generation. Peter wrote that the "end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7).

When Peter writes "the end of all things is at hand", he isn't saying what you assume. At hand simply means ready, approaching, drawing near. This is true because the Gospel of Christ was/is now being preached to all people and judging both the living and the dead. The savor of life unto all that believe, or death for all who remain in unbelief. That which had been hidden but now revealed through the advent of Christ is eternal salvation preached unto all the nations of the earth and whosoever believes on Him will be saved. No longer is the message of the Savior/Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord hidden from the nations throughout the earth. Since the advent of Christ, no longer would the knowledge of the Savior to come be only for the Jews. This is what was at hand and would shortly be done.

1 Peter 4:5-6 (KJV) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[rwb]

Are you referring to Revelation 10:6 because that does not teach that "time" would be no more but, rather, that there would be no more delay in what was coming. That is the majority rendering of that verse. Daniel taught about the "time of the end" and not the "end of time." Big difference.

What's the difference? No longer delay is really no different than time no longer. When will this be? With the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God finished, as declared through His servants the prophets from the beginning.

Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I agree. Daniel's prophesy points to the coming of Christ the Messiah (first advent) when all that is written of Him will be complete through Him.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Certainly!
What does John 5 say?

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

It's not the only confirmation of eternal life.

2 things are important, the hearing and the believing.
You wont be believing unless God has given you ears to be hearing Him.
And those who are of God hears what God says.

If you do not hear, your are not of God.
Example is John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

i did not ask about your probability of everlasting life. that is something held out to all believers. that is if they can live with out sin for throughout the 1000 years time period. and then be judged incorruptible. There is that period of time after the 1,000 years that the devil is released for a short while. if it is then that you make it past that hurdle .Then you are truly Alive.
as for the elect it a different scenario its one you didn't describe

 

[Scott Downey]

i did not ask about your probability of everlasting life. that is something held out to all believers. that is if they can live with out sin for throughout the 1000 years time period. and then be judged incorruptible. There is that period of time after the 1,000 years that the devil is released for a short while. if it is then that you make it past that hurdle .Then you are truly Alive.
as for the elect it a different scenario its one you didn't describe

Sorry, but I am amillennial, or millennial in the sense the 1000 years reign of Christ is ongoing today and 1000 years is symbolic of a long indeterminate to us period of time before the return of Christ to earth. At the end of that time, that reign, Christ will destroy the earth and heavens, they pass away, then the judgment, then new earth and new heavens, and the Christ delivers the kingdom back to the Father, as 1 Corinthians 15:24 states.

Rev 1, us being kings and priests to God is a current reality, not a future one. Which is why it is soon, the time is near, it is being realized today the 1000 years reign, and that reign is in heaven with Christ right now.

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who [b]loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The Last Enemy Destroyed​

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul spoke of the hope of Israel when he was brought before Felix and told him that he was preaching nothing else than what the Jews themselves taught--that there was "ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead" (Acts 24:15). That resurrection would be associated with the judgment of the just and the unjust. Jesus placed that judgment in the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him when He said to THEM: "For the Son of Man is about to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and THEN He will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to YOU, there are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM" (Mat. 16:27, 28). All of them (Jesus, John, Paul) placed the resurrection and the judgment in THEIR lifetime. Paul also placed the judgment there when he told Felix about the judgment that was ABOUT TO COME (Acts 24:25). This frightened Felix enough that he sent Paul away.

Yep. I agree with this above. That judgment would include both the just AND the unjust, (coming in AD 70) which imminent resurrection and judgment truly frightened Felix.

There is no justification for claiming that Jesus was speaking of two different hours in John 5.

Sure there is. This AD 33 resurrection in verse 25 - the hour that "NOW IS" - did not have any evil individuals which participated in that resurrection. There were only those who heard the voice of the Son of God and lived. Only righteous saints were raised from their graves that same day that Christ arose from the dead. NO unrighteous ones in this resurrection.

This resurrection in verse 25 was separate from the next resurrection event - in the hour that was coming which Christ mentioned in verse 28-29, this time with the good and evil both mentioned as participating. It included the "just" and the "unjust", which resurrection Paul said was "about to be" (in AD 70) - the one which Daniel 12:1-2 also wrote about.

Paul confirmed this order of resurrection events in 1 Cor. 15:23-24. Three of them.

 

[PS95]

i did not ask about your probability of everlasting life. that is something held out to all believers. that is if they can live with out sin for throughout the 1000 years time period. and then be judged incorruptible. There is that period of time after the 1,000 years that the devil is released for a short while. if it is then that you make it past that hurdle .Then you are truly Alive.
as for the elect it a different scenario its one you didn't describe

Dear Locust- JW "locusts" have no Savior and they have no concept of what elect is.
There is no 2nd chance to earn your salvation over 1000 years.
Put the watchtowers down and read the bible.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

will destroy the earth and heavens, they pass away,

New International Version
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

 

[Scott Downey]

New International Version
Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

Well, an earth will remain, but it will be a new one.
Hebrews 1

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

YOU show ME the CONTEXT, rebuilder. You are the one who used the verse. If you cannot, I will be happy to do so. It is easy.

Answer these questions: To WHOM is Peter writing? WHEN is Peter writing? WHY is Peter writer?

Lol
That tells me you do not know.
You can not refute what is written.
Got it.

You claim only you know the context.

When called on it you ask questions.
Lame.

 

[rebuilder 454]

St

So, I am to assume that you don't know the context of 2 Peter 3?

I am waiting on you to show me.

So far after all the invitations, you back out.

All air.
No substance

 

[rebuilder 454]

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

sorry I don't see your words​

My quote was that Jesus told the thief on the cross. Today you will be with me in paradise.
Then you quote the actual verse where Jesus said it. But have a strange comment," I don't see your words"

 

[HappyOma]

St
I am waiting on you to show me.

So far after all the invitations, you back out.

All air.
No substance

Again, I am not the one who first used the verse out of context. But I am happy to take the time to provide it for you.

Peter is writing to Jews--"elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1). It was not written to US. This is the second letter Peter has written to them (2 Peter 3:1). The purpose for both letters was to stir them up "to remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior THROUGH YOUR APOSTLES." They were in the "last days" (Heb. 1:1--"in THESE last days"). This reminder to them by Peter of scoffers in the last days is only significant if they are in those last days. And they were.

They were taught by their apostles that the Lord was coming back to them in their day. They were waiting "for these" (vs. 14) events. In other words, they were waiting for the "day of the Lord" to come like 'a thief" (3:10). Jesus Himself had warned His disciples that He would come in their generation as a thief--at an hour THEY did not know or expect (Mat. 24, 25). They were waiting for the "heavens" to "pass away with a roar." They were waiting for the "earth" to be "burned up." We must understand the Jewish meanings of these terms.

The "scoffers" knew that those of that day believed those things. That is why THEY mocked Peter's audience and readers. The recipients of Peter's words were justified in "waiting" and watching for those things. Jesus and their apostles had told them to do so. Peter reminds them of God's faithfulness in their waiting. To them it might have seemed a long time to wait, but "with the Lord," it was not. He is not bound by time; He is bound by His promises.

They were to be patient unto the coming of those things he told them would happen. The "heavens" and the "earth" here are not those of the physical cosmos. The word "elements" is stoicheia. It is used in Galatians 4:3, 9; Colossians 2:8, 20-22; Heb. 5:12. In NONE of those usages does it refer to the physical earth. It is used of the oracles of God or the principles and philosophies of men. We must not define words of Scripture with our western mindset. Peter and those of his day knew exactly what stoicheia meant. They were not thinking of the literal "heavens" and "earth.' They knew that the Temple was going to be destroyed in THEIR generation. Again, Jesus and His inspired apostles had told them so. The "day of the Lord" was tied to that destruction. The "elements" Peter spoke of, then, were those things pertaining to the Old Covenant, Judaism, the Mosaic Age--all related to the Temple and Jerusalem. Even in that day, they were "ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13). In A. D. 70, the Romans destroyed both the Temple and the city. The "heat" of the fires were so "fervent" that the gold melted from the walls.

That is the CONTEXT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, I am not the one who first used the verse out of context. But I am happy to take the time to provide it for you.

Peter is writing to Jews--"elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1). It was not written to US. This is the second letter Peter has written to them (2 Peter 3:1). The purpose for both letters was to stir them up "to remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior THROUGH YOUR APOSTLES." They were in the "last days" (Heb. 1:1--"in THESE last days"). This reminder to them by Peter of scoffers in the last days is only significant if they are in those last days. And they were.

They were taught by their apostles that the Lord was coming back to them in their day. They were waiting "for these" (vs. 14) events. In other words, they were waiting for the "day of the Lord" to come like 'a thief" (3:10). Jesus Himself had warned His disciples that He would come in their generation as a thief--at an hour THEY did not know or expect (Mat. 24, 25). They were waiting for the "heavens" to "pass away with a roar." They were waiting for the "earth" to be "burned up." We must understand the Jewish meanings of these terms.

The "scoffers" knew that those of that day believed those things. That is why THEY mocked Peter's audience and readers. The recipients of Peter's words were justified in "waiting" and watching for those things. Jesus and their apostles had told them to do so. Peter reminds them of God's faithfulness in their waiting. To them it might have seemed a long time to wait, but "with the Lord," it was not. He is not bound by time; He is bound by His promises.

They were to be patient unto the coming of those things he told them would happen. The "heavens" and the "earth" here are not those of the physical cosmos. The word "elements" is stoicheia. It is used in Galatians 4:3, 9; Colossians 2:8, 20-22; Heb. 5:12. In NONE of those usages does it refer to the physical earth. It is used of the oracles of God or the principles and philosophies of men. We must not define words of Scripture with our western mindset. Peter and those of his day knew exactly what stoicheia meant. They were not thinking of the literal "heavens" and "earth.' They knew that the Temple was going to be destroyed in THEIR generation. Again, Jesus and His inspired apostles had told them so. The "day of the Lord" was tied to that destruction. The "elements" Peter spoke of, then, were those things pertaining to the Old Covenant, Judaism, the Mosaic Age--all related to the Temple and Jerusalem. Even in that day, they were "ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13). In A. D. 70, the Romans destroyed both the Temple and the city. The "heat" of the fires were so "fervent" that the gold melted from the walls.

That is the CONTEXT.

Lol
Omitting the tribulation period and the specific items listed in judgement.

Jesus himself said, "tribulation such as the world has never seen, and never will".

Hello....the holocaust under Stalin and Hitler EXCEED the ad 70 holocaust.

That alone destroys amil, postrib, and your doctrine.

 

[HappyOma]

Yep. I agree with this above. That judgment would include both the just AND the unjust, (coming in AD 70) which imminent resurrection and judgment truly frightened Felix.


Sure there is. This AD 33 resurrection in verse 25 - the hour that "NOW IS" - did not have any evil individuals which participated in that resurrection. There were only those who heard the voice of the Son of God and lived. Only righteous saints were raised from their graves that same day that Christ arose from the dead. NO unrighteous ones in this resurrection.

This resurrection in verse 25 was separate from the next resurrection event - in the hour that was coming which Christ mentioned in verse 28-29, this time with the good and evil both mentioned as participating. It included the "just" and the "unjust", which resurrection Paul said was "about to be" (in AD 70) - the one which Daniel 12:1-2 also wrote about.

Paul confirmed this order of resurrection events in 1 Cor. 15:23-24. Three of them.

Yep. I agree with this above. That judgment would include both the just AND the unjust, (coming in AD 70) which imminent resurrection and judgment truly frightened Felix.


Sure there is. This AD 33 resurrection in verse 25 - the hour that "NOW IS" - did not have any evil individuals which participated in that resurrection. There were only those who heard the voice of the Son of God and lived. Only righteous saints were raised from their graves that same day that Christ arose from the dead. NO unrighteous ones in this resurrection.

This resurrection in verse 25 was separate from the next resurrection event - in the hour that was coming which Christ mentioned in verse 28-29, this time with the good and evil both mentioned as participating. It included the "just" and the "unjust", which resurrection Paul said was "about to be" (in AD 70) - the one which Daniel 12:1-2 also wrote about.

Paul confirmed this order of resurrection events in 1 Cor. 15:23-24. Three of them.

Jesus is referring to one hour and one hour only. At the coming of the Messiah, "the hour" and the "hope of Israel" had arrived. They eagerly awaited the deliverance of the "soul from the power of Sheol" (Psalm 89:48--resurrection). That "hour" had arrived in Christ and would continue until the resurrection of the dead that occurred at His coming in A. D. 70. That "hour" was so close when John wrote his first epistle that he stated "It is the last hour." The hour had arrived with the Advent of the Messiah and continued through His Parousia. Through His death, burial, and resurrection, believers were born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. That promise came at His Parousia in A. D. 70 when Christ brought the full, spiritual restoration of feillowship with God (that which was lost in the First Adam).

 

[HappyOma]

What's the difference? No longer delay is really no different than time no longer. When will this be? With the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God finished, as declared through His servants the prophets from the beginning.

Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I agree. Daniel's prophesy points to the coming of Christ the Messiah (first advent) when all that is written of Him will be complete through Him.

There is a big difference between "no more delay" and "no more time." People use this verse to falsey contend that time will end and the earth will be destroyed. The things which were unfolding in John's vision were coming to a close. There would be no more delay in the coming of those events. The Bible does not teach the "end of time" or the "end of the world."

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, I am not the one who first used the verse out of context. But I am happy to take the time to provide it for you.

Peter is writing to Jews--"elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1). It was not written to US. This is the second letter Peter has written to them (2 Peter 3:1). The purpose for both letters was to stir them up "to remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior THROUGH YOUR APOSTLES." They were in the "last days" (Heb. 1:1--"in THESE last days"). This reminder to them by Peter of scoffers in the last days is only significant if they are in those last days. And they were.

They were taught by their apostles that the Lord was coming back to them in their day. They were waiting "for these" (vs. 14) events. In other words, they were waiting for the "day of the Lord" to come like 'a thief" (3:10). Jesus Himself had warned His disciples that He would come in their generation as a thief--at an hour THEY did not know or expect (Mat. 24, 25). They were waiting for the "heavens" to "pass away with a roar." They were waiting for the "earth" to be "burned up." We must understand the Jewish meanings of these terms.

The "scoffers" knew that those of that day believed those things. That is why THEY mocked Peter's audience and readers. The recipients of Peter's words were justified in "waiting" and watching for those things. Jesus and their apostles had told them to do so. Peter reminds them of God's faithfulness in their waiting. To them it might have seemed a long time to wait, but "with the Lord," it was not. He is not bound by time; He is bound by His promises.

They were to be patient unto the coming of those things he told them would happen. The "heavens" and the "earth" here are not those of the physical cosmos. The word "elements" is stoicheia. It is used in Galatians 4:3, 9; Colossians 2:8, 20-22; Heb. 5:12. In NONE of those usages does it refer to the physical earth. It is used of the oracles of God or the principles and philosophies of men. We must not define words of Scripture with our western mindset. Peter and those of his day knew exactly what stoicheia meant. They were not thinking of the literal "heavens" and "earth.' They knew that the Temple was going to be destroyed in THEIR generation. Again, Jesus and His inspired apostles had told them so. The "day of the Lord" was tied to that destruction. The "elements" Peter spoke of, then, were those things pertaining to the Old Covenant, Judaism, the Mosaic Age--all related to the Temple and Jerusalem. Even in that day, they were "ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13). In A. D. 70, the Romans destroyed both the Temple and the city. The "heat" of the fires were so "fervent" that the gold melted from the walls.

That is the CONTEXT.

Quote
"Again, I am not the one who first used the verse out of context."

No, many before you also do not know what is being said.
"A day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day"
You just can not accept it, so you use a 50 sentence word salad to hide what the Holy Spirit wrote.

Psssst..He is SAYING he is not in your time frame or anyone else's.

Sorry you fell for that "Jesus already came incognito" heresy.