Your argument is against that which is plainly written in the Bible! I gave you supporting text, but sadly, in order for you to continue to espouse your unbiblical doctrine (Preterist) you refuse to receive the truth from the Word of God!
When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
- Thread starter Scott Downey
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Your argument is against that which is plainly written in the Bible! I gave you supporting text, but sadly, in order for you to continue to espouse your unbiblical doctrine (Preterist) you refuse to receive the truth from the Word of God!
Let's look at the CONTEXT of 1 Peter 4:5-6 instead of just ripping it out to try to make a point. The word for "ready" is "etoimos." The readiness is clarified in Verse 7. The "readiness" was at hand. What was Christ "ready" to do? He was to judge the "living and the dead." The timing for this is given by James (James 5:9). He wrote that in his day, the Judge was "at the door." That followed His statment that the "coming of the Lord" was "AT HAND."
What else does Peter tell THEM? Because the "end of all things" was "at hand," THEY were to be "self-controlled and sober-minded." He goes on. THEY were to rejoice in their sharing of "Christ's sufferings" so that THEY could "rejoice and be glad WHEN HIS GLORY WAS REVEALED" (verse 13). That glory was ABOUT TO BE REVEALED (5:1--mellouses. He was ready and about to judge the living and the death--in THEIR day. The JUDGE was THEN at the door!
Peter continues by telling THEM that THEY would "receive the unfading crown of glory," "WHEN the chief Shepherd" appeared. (5:4).
Please read the entire chapter book to get the true sense of Peter's words!
What is plainly written in the Bible?
What is the point of "supporting text, rwb, when you do not acknowledge what is "plainly written" in 1 Peter 4? I EXEGETED that entire section and THEN I gave supporting text. It is YOU who continues "to espouse your unbiblical doctrine" and "refuse to receive the truth from the Word of God."
WHAT is the context of 2 Peter 4? Why do you ignore it?
YOUR "argument is against that which is plainly written in the Bible."
"None is so blind as he who will not see."
rebuilder, you stubbornly resist truth that is presented to you from the very words of the Bible and then accuse others of not being able to "accept it."
Heresy? Let us all be careful lest we find OURSELVES guilty of what we accuse others.
I wish you no ill will, rebuilder, but I will no longer waste my time with someone who resists every BIBLICAL truth given in CONTEXT and who tries to skirt around it in every fashion possible.
Here's what the "Holy Spirit wrote":
"In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). That was written SHORTLY before A. D. 770 (ca. 64-69). I have yet to find ANY futurist who will even attempt to deal with that verse in its CONTEXT. Why? Because like YOU, they do not like "what is being said."
First of all, the holocaust is questionable. Time will bring out the truth.
Second, Jesus placed THAT tribulation in the generation of those disciples right there with Him ("THIS generation"). "That alone destroys" futurism and YOUR doctrine.
Furthermore, the Tribulation period very much included the horrendous, unspeakable tortures Nero inflicted on Christians. According to Jesus Himself, the Great Tribulation took place between A. D. 30 and A. D. 70--THEIR generation. The Jews were the predominant persecutors of His Church! This is clear from Paul's letters to the saints of that day.
It was, however, the unbelieving, lawless, rebellious Jews who suffered the most at the hands of the Romans. Their crime was the greatest of all and could never be repeated--THEY rejected the Messiah and crucified Him. The Tribulation was local and confined to the land of Israel. It was not to be a worldwide catastrophe. It was to culminate in THEIR HOUSE (the Temmple) being left unto THEM desolate (Mat. 23). Christ was coming to JUDGE that generation of apostate Jews. Never before had He so utterly judged them. Never before had He judged them so drastically and so finally. It had never happened before; He had always brought them back to Himself. THAT tribulation would never happen again because never again would God deal with OT Israel. Besides the millions who died within the walls of Jerusalem, many more were taken off into captivity, never to be restored. Everything related to the Old Covenant was gone--the city, the Temple, the records, the altar, the holy place and most holy place, etc. Never had He judged them so harshly and never would He do so again!
That which calls itself "Israel" today is NOT OT Israel. It is the creation of the U. N. and is not the people of God.
You seem to be reading your bias for your doctrine into this and many other texts of Scripture rather than allowing the Scripture to inform your doctrine.
1 Peter 4:1-7 (KJV) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Peter does NOT speak of what Christ is ready to do. He's writing of how those who were once of the same nature as unbelieving Gentiles had endured suffering in the flesh because they no longer desired to commit sin in the flesh with them. After being armed with the mind of Christ upon hearing the gospel according to grace through faith, believing by the power of the Holy Spirit in them, they were convicted of sins. The unbelieving Gentiles they once partied with according to the lusts of the flesh, were speaking evil against them. But rather than turn away from those who were still DEAD in trespasses and sins, the gospel was preached even to them that are DEAD (spiritually)! Why? Because the Word of God they preach is ready to judge them according to men in the flesh. Those Gentiles who turn to Christ through the message of the gospel could themselves also live according to God in the spirit. This is how the end of all things has come/draws near (at hand). The all things that come to an end when unsaved man turns to Christ for everlasting life is lust of the flesh in this life, and everlasting death to come.
Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
2 Timothy 1:8-11 (KJV) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Just as James has written, we are called to patiently wait for the coming of the Lord. And we must understand that He (husbandman) will come once the fruit of the laborers of the gospel of Christ have gathered the complete harvest of souls who are being eternally saved as the gospel is preached unto all the nations of the earth. We are to wait patiently for the coming of the Lord the second time is indeed approaching, made near to whosoever hears the gospel preached by grace through faith and turn to Christ for everlasting life.
James 5:7-8 (KJV) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You can't say "this generation" then point to history and say "Jesus came already, no more second coming"
Then see that Hitler and Stalin did more holocaust than Rome.
Either Jesus was confused, or the unpacking you are doing in the phrase " this generation " is way way off.
Either way, your deal is a grand canyon leap.
A literal impossibility.
Jesus used the expression "this generation" 19 times. A good student of God's Word would have looked them up. If he had bothered, he would have seen that Jesus always meant His contemporaries when He used that phrase--always. Since you apparently didn't find it profitable to study them, I will give them to you:
Matthew 11:16 THIS generation
Matthew 12:41 and 42 and 45 THIS generation
Matthew 23:36 THIS generation
Matthew 24:34 THIS generation
Mark 8:12 THIS generation
Mark 8:38 THIS generation
Mark 13:30 THIS generation
Luke 7:31 THIS generation
Luke 11:29 (2x) THIS wicked generation
Luke 11:30 and 31 and 32 THIS generation
Luke 11:50 and 51 THIS generation
Luke 17:25 THIS generation
Luke 21:32 THIS generation
Peter also used it in Acts 2:40 of his generation.
A very foundational principle of sound hermeneutics is the Analogy of Faith--that is, Scripture interprets Scripture. That is the very essence of ascertaining the meaning of a passage IN CONTEXT. Sadly, far too many Christians never bother to study the context, much less look up other passages for clarity.
Again, Jesus clearly meant the generation of those disciples right there with Him when He said "THIS generation." You try to redefine it, not because it is not plain and simple, but because taking it as it is intended violates your false paradigm.
Let's be honest with Scripture--especially the words from our own Lord and Savior, lest we make Him a liar before an unbelieving world!
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Take this verse with your same logic....
Jesus told his disciples " not a hair on your heads will perish"
Uh ,they were all killed brutally by Satan, except for John.
So your one dimensional approach would most likely never get to what was actually conveyed by Jesus.
You only think you know what is meant.
You pick and choose what fits your deal, unable to admit the notion that Jesus already came is so outlandish and impossible it is beyond words.
rebuilder, I am finished with your ignoring what I post and then bringing up something else. DEAL with the many "THIS generation" passages and THEN I might entertain your subsequent false accusations--AFTER you provide the CONTEXT of Luke 21. Do you understand what CONTEXT means, rebuilder. I don't think you do.
It is YOU who is picking and choosing what "fits your deal" because YOU are "unable to admit the notion that Jesus already came."
What did Jesus mean by THIS generation in all of the verses I gave you? I will not respond to anything you post until you answer that.
Since the Greek word "genea" (generation), is derived from the Greek word "genos" it's not a stretch, nor improbable that when Christ said, "this generation" He was speaking of all the seeds of Abraham, called Israel. Abraham's generation, offspring, kin, country men, same stock, both biological and supernatural are of the four generations of Noah and his three sons.
Abram was 100 years old when Isaac was born, and Isaac was 60 at the birth of his children, and Jacob 64 years of age at his marriage. But the word dôr (Hebrew word translated 'generation' Gn 15:16) had probably come down from a remote antiquity, and, like the Latin word seculum, signified a century. [A seculum is a length of time roughly equal to the potential lifetime of a person or, equivalently, the complete renewal of a human population.]
Genesis 15:13 (KJV) And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 15:16 (KJV) But in the fourth generation (four centuries) they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
γένος génos, ghen'-os
from G1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):—born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.
My point being that Christ was not limiting "this generation" to only those of the first century. Christ is saying that the offspring of Abraham, both those who come through his natural/biological seeds, as well as those who come through his supernatural SEED (Christ) shall not cease to be a nation/offspring/stock/kindred, called Israel upon this earth till all these things be fulfilled. There shall be a nation called Israel to the end of the age when the last/seventh trumpet shall sound there will no longer be any delay, time shall be no longer.
Matthew 24:34 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Where in the New Testament can we find a generation limited only to the people alive at the time of Christ?
3 Resurrections
Active Member
We cannot simply flush the Matthew 27:52-53 account of those many saints who were bodily resurrected in AD 33 and went into the holy city to be seen of many eye-witnesses there. Along with "Christ the First-fruits", these Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints were also the "First-fruits". Revelation 14 refers to the group of Jewish tribal members numbering 144,000 resurrected ones who were called "the First-fruits unto God and the Lamb". They shared Christ's title of the "First-fruits" because those Matthew 27:52-53 saints were raised from their graves around Jerusalem on the same day as Christ. These all composed the "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. The second resurrection event in AD 70 was of the same nature - bodies coming out of the graves and being taken to heaven with the returning Christ.
It was in AD 33 that the souls of the righteous dead were taken to heaven from then onward, and not to Hades. "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth..." i.e., From the "First resurrection" in AD 33 onward.
God did not wait until AD 70 to bring full, spiritual restoration of fellowship with Himself. He did that once Christ had "offered Himself without spot to God" in heaven at His resurrection-day ascension, and was consecrated by God in heaven as our Great High Priest of the New Covenant made with better promises. "God was in Christ, reconciling Himself unto the world". This "ministry of reconciliation" was given to the disciples to proclaim the glad tidings of restored fellowship through Christ's actions on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:19). This was available long before AD 70.
What was NOT available to humankind until AD 70 was to enter heaven's temple in a glorified, resurrected body form. The bodily-resurrected believers had to wait until the 7 judgment vials were poured out, and then bodily-resurrected humanity were finally able to enter heaven's temple, as stated in Revelation 15:8.
All the progressive stages of our salvation are not finished until we are finally restored in a face-to-face fellowship with our Creator, standing in His presence in our glorified, resurrected body forms, changed into the incorruptible and immortal state, just like that of "Christ the First-fruits".
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Uh, yes, He was. His statement was that the Queen of Sheba, and those of Nineveh would rise up in the judgment with "THIS generation" because a greater than Solomon and Jonah was "HERE" - namely Christ Himself standing right there in front of them, "here" and bodily, in THAT wicked generation which was then refusing to accept His message. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." He "suffered many things", and was rejected by "THIS generation" (Luke 17:25) - namely, His own fellow Jews in the first century who were given first-hand the sign of the prophet Jonah as proof of Christ Jesus' deity in THAT wicked and adulterous first-century generation.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand the language, but then again all language has been confused and must be spiritually discerned.
That is why I said, "end of the world"--because when the times of this age are fulfilled--this world is finished.
If saints had been bodily resurrected from the graves when Christ resurrected, how can they be first-fruits with Christ since they were not resurrected physically immortal & incorruptible? They all died again, there is no record of any human being physically alive for some two thousand years.
Those first to receive the Spirit, first the Christian Jew, and Christian Gentiles also after Pentecost are called "the firstfruits of the Spirit". Even though they possessed the Spirit of Christ in them, they still must wait until the appointed time of the end for the redemption of the body. That shall be when the last trumpet sounds.
Romans 8:23 (KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
"Where in the New Testament can we find a generation limited only to the people alive at the time of Christ?"
Matthew 11:16 THIS generation
Matthew 12:41 and 42 and 45 THIS generation
Matthew 23:36 THIS generation
Matthew 24:34 THIS generation
Mark 8:12 THIS generation
Mark 8:38 THIS generation
Mark 13:30 THIS generation
Luke 7:31 THIS generation
Luke 11:29 (2x) THIS wicked generation
Luke 11:30 and 31 and 32 THIS generation
Luke 11:50 and 51 THIS generation
Luke 17:25 THIS generation
Luke 21:32 THIS generation
Peter also used it in Acts 2:40 of his generation.
You wrote: "My point being that Christ was not limiting "this generation" to only those of the first century. Christ is saying that the offspring of Abraham, both those who come through his natural/biological seeds, as well as those who come through his supernatural SEED (Christ) shall not cease to be a nation/offspring/stock/kindred, called Israel upon this earth till all these things be fulfilled."
Have you ever studied English GRAMMAR? Do you recall ever learning about NEAR demonstratives (THIS) and FAR demonstratives (THAT)? Jesus did not say THAT generation. He said THIS generation--the generation of the first century, those disciples right there with Him. Christ said NOTHING about the "offspring of Abraham." You are putting words into the mouth of your own Lord and Savior and forcing Him to say something He NEVER said.
THIS generation meant His contemporaries. Did you even bother to look up the other times in which Jesus used the expression? I doubt it. You would rather shore up your false paradigm by putting words into Jesus' mouth. Egregious and inexcusable.
Instead of questioning my intellect, perhaps you should question the inconsistencies in your unbiblical doctrine??? This generation is inclusive of the entire posterity of Father Abrham, including Christ! Both Abraham's biological seeds, as well as those who are of Abraham's supernatural SEED (Christ) are Israel. Within Israel is both the natural seeds, Israel of the flesh, and Israel of God who are of the SEED (Christ). All Christians or "this generation" that has existed since the time of Abraham is called Israel.
Genesis 15:16 (KJV) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Hebrew: Generation -
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
1755. דּוֹר dowr (dôwr)
Search for H1755 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.
דּוֹר dôwr, dore
or (shortened) דֹּר dôr; from H1752; properly, a revolution of time, i.e. an age or generation; also a dwelling:—age, × evermore, generation, (n-) ever, posterity.
All of that happened at His Parousia in A. D. 70.--which was the event THEY waited for. They had been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until that time. That was the time Jesus told His disciples to look for--when they were to lift up their eyes because THEN their SALVATION (full restoration) drew near.
Where does Scripture state that the "time of this age" will be fulfilled? Where does it state that the world will be "finished"? There is no "end of the world." The Scripture state "end of the age." The Jews knew of two ages: The Mosaic Age (Old Covenant) and the Messianic Age (New Covenant). We are now in the Messianic Age of the Church--it has no end.
Similar threads
