When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[HappyOma]

This is all Preterist jibberish. These references above are still speaking about the literal physical natural heavens and earth, albeit asigning figurative attributes to each. Hello!

You render them meaningless cryptic illusions.

Anything goes in Preterist interpretation. Anything that reinforce it's faulty teaching. You have to twixt the plain straightforward meaning of this passage to sustain your position.

Premillennialists have similarly been forced in recent times to align with this nonsense, as 2 Peter 3 forbids their error. They have to spiritualize this natural physical depiction as it clearly eliminates any possible of their imaginary future millennium. Preterists do it because they know the literal physical natural heavens and earth were not eliminated in AD70. Both camps assume this to support their bias doctrinal positions. They deviate from the obvious meaning.

So, you are just repeating what you have been taught. The reality is, everywhere the heavens and earth are coupled together it is always in the context of the literal physical natural heavens and earth.

I am stating what I STUDIED. It is you who do not understand. You do not understand the very JEWISH nature of the Scriptures. Jesus spoke as an OT prophet, using the very language they used--symbolic, apocalyptic, judgment language. The prophets used metaphors of the physical heavens and earth to describe God's coming in FIERY WRATH against nations (e.g., Babylon, Edom, Egypt, Israel). Stop listening to YOUR teachers and study the CONTEXT of Isaiah 13, 24, 34, Nahum 1, Amos 5, 8). You are woefully ignorant of OT writings and the writing genre of the OT prophets!

THAT is how Peter used "heavens and earth." His JEWISH readers would have clearly understood his meaning. You are so blinded by your wrong concepts of the NATURE of His coming, the NATURE of the Resurrection, and the NATURE of the judgment that you take every time word and statement and twist them and pervert them and redefine them to your own ends.

Let's look at Scripture--in CONTEXT--and stop calling names. The sign of a good student of God's Word is when he understands the different types of literature found in the Bible (e.g., historical narrative, poetry, prophecy, symbolism) and can skillfully discern them.

Note: When people throw dirt, it is a good sign that they are losing ground!

You disregard anything that does not align with what YOU think is true. Everyhone is wrong except you. People who think that way never learn. If you want to attack my beliefs, do so with the Scriptures, demonstrating to me that you know how to exegete them properly.

Let us be careful of what we accuse others lest we find ourselves to be the one guilty! "None is so blind as he who WILL NOT see."

Let's do this. If you can satisfactorily exegete the following verse in its context without twisting any of the words, I will take my leave and not bother any longer with you. OK?

Writing SHORTLY before A. D. 70 (ca 64-69), the writer of Hebrews wrote:

"In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE HE who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). Preterists take that literally. Why are they at fault for doing so?

 

[Lizbeth]

No worries, Lizbeth. It is hard to keep up.

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but it is important. As I noted before, the Scriptures do not state that Israel was an "ensample" to us. The disobedience of the people in the wilderness under Moses was the example to those of that day, not to us. We can surely draw an application, but that is not the context of that passage. The example was not Israel; it was those in the 40-year wilderness wanderings.

When is the "time of the Gentiles"? You will probably disagree because, like all futurists, you do not accept Jesus' meaning of "this generation." He used that expression 19 times, and He always meant those of His day, His contemporaries. Jesus stated that the "times of the Gentiles" would occur in that very generation of those disciples standing right there with Him. If we consider Daniel's timing, we find this fits the years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70. During that time, God allowed the Romans to "trod down the city of Jerusalem for the time of its destruction. "Time, times, and half a time (1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years) coincides perfectly with the time frame of the Roman-Jewish wars--A. D. 67 - A. D. 76 (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years!). The times of the Gentiles ended at the destruction of the Temple and the city in A. D. 70. Lizbeth: "This generation" means exactly what it means. The answers to your questions lie in that time frame. Approaching this any other way will give you more questions than answers. Will you consider it?

Whatever horrors and calamities are happening in the world right now are nothing much different than those of most past generations. We must refrain from using "newspaper exegesis" whereby we impose things happening today upon the scriptures. The bottom line is that the things Jesus warned about on the Mount of Olives were directed at those very disciples right there with Him. The wars and rumors of wars were of their day. They were to be killed and hated for His name's sake. And they were. They were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies--Luke 21). They were to flee. History records that when Christians, heeding Jesus' words and the words of the inspired writers, fled the city to the mountains of Pella. All were saved from the coming assault on the city.

Yes, I agree and don't need convincing that those things applied to "that" literal generation in the first century. Just that I ALSO seem to see another layer of truth, so to speak, superimposed on that. Jesus said right there in Luke 21 that His words would not pass away even though the "heaven and earth" of that generation and age would pass away. So I believe, and seem to see, that His words are still alive and active and have application for us today. The generation that sees the fig tree (Israel) and all the trees greening up (ruling themselves and prospering?) would see those things begin to happen.

The apostles asked Jesus when the kingdom (sovereign self-rule) would be restored to Israel and Jesus told them it wasn't for them to know and only the Father knew when that would happen. That occurred in 1948. And though there may have been some bad actors and nefarious things involved in all that, it still remains that God is sovereign and He is the one who raises or lowers kings and kingdoms in this world ultimately. So He has allowed it for His purposes.

Apostate Israel/Jerusalem was and is the Mystery Babylon spoken of in Revelation, and yes it got judged in 70AD, but ALSO there is a "Christian" counterpart.....the apostate church is also Mystery Babylon, a spiritual harlot and mother of harlots. Merchant ministers making merchandise of the people, trading in false doctrines and souls of men. I'm seeing a pattern with the things that are going on today. Christianity sure is big business in the west and her merchants sure do get wealthy off it. Israel is getting ready to build another Temple and unfortunately the Temple Institute intends to use it to "unite" all the world's religions. The Lord showed me a very strong deception associated with it.....the "strong delusion" I believe. Many Christians will be deceived by it, especially Hebrew roots people, and any Christians who are being deceived already to believe that all faiths are worshiping the same God....which I beleive is the lie God is giving them over to in judgment as per 2 Thess. 2. If it were possible it would deceive the very elect. True of Israel in the first century but also true in the last days of THIS age. I want to say more but it is hard to discuss everything in writing all at once.

 

[HappyOma]

You do not have one single passage in Scripture that teaches that the heavens and earth figuratively represent "the old covenant Mosaic Age and Judaism" or "their ultimate destruction represents "the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple." You invent that of your own imagination and then foist that upon the sacred text, without a single prooftext teaching such. This is breathtaking. This is delusional.

Peter is writing just prior to A. D. 70 and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Jesus foretold this time and told THEM that it would happen in THEIR generation. They looked for it; they waited for it, they longed for it.

Upheavals in the "heavens" and "earth" were OFTEN depicted by the OT prophets as judgments from God against peoples and nations (Babylon, Egypt, Edom, Israel--see Isa. 13, 34, Ezek. 32, Amos 5, 8, ETC.).

Peter uses that SAME type of language in 2 Peter 3. THOSE Jews understood Him. THEY knew that Christ's coming was to happen in THEIR lifetime. Jesus and His inspired writers had told them so. THEY understood that Peter was not speaking of the physical heavens and earth. They knew the OT writings and how such depictions were commonly used. Did you even bother to look up the word for "elements" there, O wise and knowing one, immune to all imagination, invention, and delusion? The word is "stoicheia." It is NEVER EVER used in the scriptures of the phsical, chemical make up of the earth. EVER!

Here they are.

1. Gal. 4:3, 9 - "So also we, when we were babes, under the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world were in servitude...and now, having known God -- and rather being known by God -- how turn ye again unto the weak and poor ELEMENTS to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?"

2. Col. 2:8, 20-22 - "See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the PHILOSOPHY (stoicheia) and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the RUDIMENTS (stoicheia) of the world, and not according to Christ, ...

3. Heb. 5:12 - "For even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what [are] the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food."

Second Peter 3 is the other usage. You asked me a question, so now I ask you: WHERE in any of those passages do you see the physical earth?

It is not my "invention" or my "imagination" or my "delusion" that Peter does NOT have the physical earth in mind. The nearest judgment coming in Peter's day is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. They epitomized the Mosaic, Old Covenant Age. That is clear evidence that he was referring to it. THEY were waiting for it. The OT writers often spoke of FIRE and BURNING when relating times of judgment. That is the foundation for Peter's use of FERVENT HEAT. In A. D. 70, when the Romans burned the city and the Temple, the heat of the fires was to FERVENT that the gold melted from the walls! THAT was Peter's FERVENT HEAT!

You are so in love with your futurist paradigm that makes everything about you, that you cannot see what is right in front of you. And then making matters worse, you accuse others of what YOU are guilty--imagination and invention and delusion.

The bottom line is this: Futurism, which denies the very words of our Lord and Savior, makes Him out to be a liar, deceiver, or idiot who didn't know what He was talking about. Is that the type of picture you want to create of Him before the eyes of an unbelieving world?

Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (Mat. 24; Mark 13, Luke 21). AND THEY DID--whether you want to see it or not.

 

[WPM]

My "teacher" is the Word of God. Your comment gives the impression that my understanding comes from those outside of the Scriptures--from the studies of others. While I appeal to the thoughts of others, as we all do, my final conclusions come from my own personal study of God's Word.

According to Scripture itself, A. D. 70 was the "coming of Christ" and the "resurrection." Jesus placed the resurrection in the lifetime of those disciples standing right there with Him. The elect would be gathered from the four winds (resurrection) by the angels. That would happen in that very generation. It is the same gathering that Paul appointed to himself and those of his day in 1 Thessalonians 4. He clearly stated that he and those of his day would meet the Lord in the "air."

Physical death and marriage do not come to end on the earth. The earth has no end.

When Jesus addressed the sin against the Holy Spirit, he stated that it would not be forgiven either in 'this age" or in the age ABOUT TO come. It was about to come in Jesus' own day. At the Advent of the Messiah, the ages were about to change through His atonement. That age of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, sacrifices, and rituals was coming to a close. The writer of Hebrews spoke of this when he wrote that the Old was "growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13).

The age about to come was the New Covenant in His blood. Under the Old, all who died went to Sheol/Hades to await resurrection. With the coming of the New, the "dead in Christ" in Hades were to be released from their bondage at His coming--in A. D. 70. The "dead in Christ" rose first and were changed, then those still alive were changed and joined together with them and with Christ (1 Thes. 4). THAT change was the restoration of full fellowship with God lost through the First Adam. Resurrection is not the overcoming of PHYSICAL death. That is not the need of mankind. It is the victory over spiritual death--the death Adam suffered "in the day" that He sinned in the Garden.

You are a heretic. Scripture warns about people like you. The resurrection, glorification and perfection has obviously not arrived. Your delusions are breathtaking.

The live in Christ have never been caught up. Hello! You are delusional. Your obsession with AD70 is grievous. And no, you never found this. You were brainwashed by your heretical teachers.

Your theology is banned here.

 

[HappyOma]

The generation that sees the fig tree (Israel) and all the trees greening up (ruling themselves and prospering?) would see those things begin to happen.

Lizbeth, that is not what Jesus said. He used the expresson "this generation" nineteen times. Please look them up and study them. He always meant those of His own day--His contemporaries. Always.

Jesus told THEM that THEY were to recognize the signs of His COMING as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree and ALL the trees." This is not about Israel--these are just trees! Those disciples were to live through all of those things--particular, historical things.

You wrote: "The apostles asked Jesus when the kingdom (sovereign self-rule) would be restored to Israel and Jesus told them it wasn't for them to know and only the Father knew when that would happen. That occurred in 1948."

How can I say this more clearly? They did not know the "day or the hour" but they knew the GENERATION. Did He not make that clear in His use of THIS generation? Lizbeth, if Jesus used "this generation" to mean His contemporaries and those of His own day in 18 occurrences, should we not be careful about giving it a different meaning in Matthew 24:34? Should He not have explained how and why He was giving it a different nuance? The creation of the nation "Israel" in 1948 has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Consider also His words in Matthew 16:28. "There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom." The kingdom was going to come in their lifetime. Again, Jesus told them that only the Father knew when exactly, but THEY knew the generation. That is why throughout the epistles, those of that day are described as 'waiting" and "watching" and "being ready." Jesus Himself told them to do so. They did so because He had told them that He was returning to them.

I used to believe as you do, but I could no longer do injustice to the time words and the time statements. You are free to continue to believe as you do, but your approach will never give you cohesiveness. You will always struggle with the timing because it cannot be made to fit your futurist understanding of the NATURE of things (the Parousia, the Resurrrction, the Judgment). The time indicators place them in the generation of those very disciples. I pray you will become willing to look at other approaches that lead to compatibility.

Apostate Israel/Jerusalem was and is the Mystery Babylon spoken of in Revelation, and yes it got judged in 70AD, but ALSO there is a "Christian" counterpart.....the apostate church is also Mystery Babylon, a spiritual harlot and mother of harlots. Merchant ministers making merchandise of the people, trading in false doctrines and souls of men. I'm seeing a pattern with the things that are going on today. Christianity sure is big business in the west and her merchants sure do get wealthy off it. Israel is getting ready to build another Temple and unfortunately the Temple Institute intends to use it to "unite" all the world's religions. The Lord showed me a very strong deception associated with it.....the "strong delusion" I believe. Many Christians will be deceived by it, especially Hebrew roots people, and any Christians who are being deceived already to believe that all faiths are worshiping the same God....which I beleive is the lie God is giving them over to in judgment as per 2 Thess. 2. If it were possible it would deceive the very elect. True of Israel in the first century but also true in the last days of THIS age. I want to say more but it is hard to discuss everything in writing all at once.

Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2 apply to his time frame and to his time frame only. Paul told them that they would live to see His appearing. In 2 Thessalonians 1 (the chapter most futurists bypass), Paul commends them for their faith and their steadfastness in the persecutions they are going through. He encourages them by telling them that THEY will be "given relief" at the APPEARING of the Lord. THEY would be given relief.

Then in chapter 2 Paul makes it clear that the "man of sin" was someone of their very own day. THEY knew what restrained him. He was alive then.

Respectifully, you continue to attempt to make all kinds of double fulfillments for things because you have an unbiblical understanding of the nature of His coming. You insist that He must come "bodily and visibly." You cannot see how that has happened, so you insist on some yet future event. But He wasn't to come "bodily and visbily." That is not the essence of Acts 1. The KEY there is the CLOUDS. He left in the clouds of glory, majesty, and authority and THAT was how He came--in clouds of judgment against that apostate generation of Jews guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" Mat. 23).

Peace!

 

[HappyOma]

You are a heretic. Scripture warns about people like you. The resurrection, glorification and perfection has obviously not arrived. Your delusions are breathtaking.

The live in Christ have never been caught up. Hello! You are delusional. Your obsession with AD70 is grievous. And no, you never found this. You were brainwashed by your heretical teachers.

Your theology is banned here.

Whatever. Such hatred against a fellow believer "is banned here." Scripture warns about that you know! When you get to glory, your eschatology will be corrected.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

You can't say "this generation" then point to history and say "Jesus came already, no more second coming"
Then see that Hitler and Stalin did more holocaust than Rome.
Either Jesus was confused, or the unpacking you are doing in the phrase " this generation " is way way off.

Either way, your deal is a grand canyon leap.
A literal impossibility.

a generation is what ?
Genesis 6:3
God says ''My spirit will not tolerate man indefinitely, because he is only flesh. Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.”
if we now figure from a point in time where it is that the first signs Jesus gave about his presents began to happen then we are still with in that 120 year time span.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All of that happened at His Parousia in A. D. 70.--which was the event THEY waited for. They had been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until that time. That was the time Jesus told His disciples to look for--when they were to lift up their eyes because THEN their SALVATION (full restoration) drew near.

You are correct that the Matt. 27:52-53 saints bodily resurrected in AD 33 were waiting for a "full restoration" event you referred to in AD 70. They were waiting for their final transport into heaven. It wasn't good enough just for their bodily remains to come up out of the grave, changed into the incorruptible and immortal state. The completion of our salvation inheritance is to have a restored face-to-face fellowship with our Creator in our changed, incorruptible and immortal body forms.

As you wrote above, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints (the 144,000 First-fruits) were "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. This was the Holy Spirit's pledge that, even though they were tasked with remaining on earth in those glorified, redeemed bodies from AD 33 until AD 70, their eventual bodily transport to heaven with the returning Christ was an assured thing. THAT is the culmination point of our salvation - not just to get above ground.

This is why the bodily-resurrected Jewish 144,000 "First-fruits' were the only ones able to "learn that song" in Rev. 14. Their experience would be unique, in that they would have the patience to wait from AD 33 until AD 70 for their glorified bodies to ascend to heaven with Christ - along with every other resurrected saint who had died up until then.

 

[rwb]

No, it is not even possible for those Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints to have died again. "...Neither CAN they die anymore, but are like the angels in heaven..." You are merely uttering a common misconception about those raised to life again in the Scriptures dying twice. Can't happen. This is totally contrary to what Scripture says for the bodily-resurrected state. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die..." , NOT TWICE.

And yes, we do have a record of someone who lived several millennia on earth in a glorified, deathless body. We have the example of Melchizedek, which Hebrews 7:8 testified as still living as that book was being written.

As for all those bodily-resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, these were made "alive", but "remained" on the earth among the church as the resurrected "First-fruits" Paul mentioned in Romans 8:28, the verse you brought up above. Those resurrected "First-fruits" were waiting with the rest of the believers for the (1 Thess. 4) final transport of the resurrected saints into heaven at Christ's return (which came in AD 70). So, none of those individuals resurrected in Scripture are presently on earth today. They were caught up in the sky and taken to heaven together with the bodily returning Christ in AD 70, joining all of the rest of the newly-resurrected saints at that time when the seventh Revelation trumpet sounded. Just as Christ had promised He would return, while some of those He spoke to on earth were still alive to see it happen (Matt. 16:27-28).

Of course, those of the resurrection Christ is referring to that are as the angels of God in heaven cannot die again! Why? Because the resurrection as angels of God is heaven is not physical it is spiritual. It is only those who have partaken in the resurrection of Christ who have before death spiritually entered the Kingdom of God when we are born again of His Spirit. Then when our body dies, or spirit returns to God a living soul (Ecc 12:7). That's why Christ says in the resurrection we don't marry, because we are eternally wed to Christ, and as spiritual body we are as the angels of God in heaven. This is why Christ says that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." By having part in the first resurrection through faith in Christ, which is by grace, these saints of Old including, but not limited to Abaham, Isaac, and Jacob, now belong to the spiritual body of Christ waiting in heaven for the spiritual Kingdom of God to be complete and then they shall be raised in physical albeit immortal & incorruptible body of flesh fit for life on the new earth.

Matthew 22:28-32 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It was not physical bodies resurrected to life again! That cannot be because if it were they would have (1) become immortal and never die again, (2) None shall be physically lifted up until the last day. This is not 'seeing' Christ in a physical sense, but through discerning who He is.

As the spiritual body of Christ, even after death living souls, this is depicting the first resurrection of the dead for saints who had died in faith before the first advent.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 6:39-40 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Melchisedec is a curiosity! Being called King of righteousness, King of Salem, King of peace. Christ is a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. We know Melchisedec did not walk this earth an immortal man, because we have no record of his birth or death. It's been suggested that Melchisedec may be a Jewish legend, others believe him to be an epiphany. To argue his immortality seems quite the stretch!

Genesis 14:18-20 (KJV) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 7:1-4 (KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Hebrews 7:21 (KJV) (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

 

[WPM]

Whatever. Such hatred against a fellow believer "is banned here." Scripture warns about that you know! When you get to glory, your eschatology will be corrected.

Nonsense. Keep your heresy to yourself. You have no answer to the Book.

Has the curse been lifted? Is death abolished? Is evil gone? Is sin terminated? Are you glorified? Has perfection arrived?

You live in a delusional world.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Except they were not glorified.

Yes, those Matt. 27:52-53 saints were given glorified bodies. Any saint who is bodily-resurrected retains that glorified, incorruptible immortal body form. In the same way that Romans 6:9 tells us that "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him", neither can any saint who is bodily resurrected ever physically die a second time - death has no dominion over them from that point onward.

So what about these people have they not died again? Where are they now? Still wandering the earth?

All the bodily-resurrected saints left this planet back in AD 70 with the returning Christ. That includes the Dorcas and Eutychus examples which you mentioned above, in addition to any individuals that Christ and the disciples raised to life again during their earthly ministry. Those resurrected "alive" individuals who had "remained" on earth did not ascend to heaven before those saints who were still in the ground at that point. They waited on earth until they were "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (the fulfillment of the "rapture" of ONLY resurrected saints in 1 Thess. 4. No living believers were translated and caught up to heaven at that point - ONLY bodily-resurrected saints.)

These resurrection events came after Christ ascended.

Of course they did. Christ ascended alone to heaven in Acts 1. Nobody left the planet with Him at that time. But all of those examples of resurrected saints who had been made "alive" would "remain" on the earth in those glorified bodies until the AD 70 bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives, just as He had promised to do while some of those He spoke and ministered to were still alive to see it (Matt. 16:27-28).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Melchisedec is a curiosity! Being called King of righteousness, King of Salem, King of peace. Christ is a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. We know Melchisedec did not walk this earth an immortal man, because we have no record of his birth or death. It's been suggested that Melchisedec may be a Jewish legend, others believe him to be an epiphany. To argue his immortality seems quite the stretch!

"Melchizedek" was the "nickname" given to the translated Enoch. Enoch became known as the deathless Melchizedek who, at the time Abraham knew him, had no obvious genealogy or beginning of life or end of days. This single example of the only person ever to be translated so that he would never die was still living in the time the book of Hebrews was being written. How do you think Jude was able to quote Enoch so accurately? The man Enoch / Melchizedek was still around in those days. He left this planet with the rest of the bodily-resurrected saints in AD 70.

It was not physical bodies resurrected to life again! That cannot be because if it were they would have (1) become immortal and never die again,

Of course it was examples of physical bodies resurrected to immortal life in Matt. 27:52-53, Lazarus, Dorcas, Eutychus, etc.. None of those individuals ever died again, but became deathless, just like the angels in heaven are deathless, as promised in Luke 20:35-36. Hebrews 9:27 declares that it is appointed to mankind to die only ONCE physically, just like Christ only died once, never to die again.

It is the spiritually-resurrected state of believers that is the Holy Spirit's pledge that their mortal remains will be changed and raised out of the grave as incorruptible and immortal. All those examples in the NT like Lazarus, Dorcas, Eutychus, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc., were first given a spiritual resurrection while in this life, and were then entitled after physical death to have their mortal bodies changed and raised to eternal life of an incorruptible and immortal form.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But He wasn't to come "bodily and visbily." That is not the essence of Acts 1.

Yes, Christ Jesus did come bodily and visibly in that AD 70 generation, and was witnessed in AD 70 by every eye of those who pierced Him, as was predicted. We today have archeological proofs that He came to the Mount of Olives that year, just as was promised for that first-century generation. All the bodily-resurrected saints were gathered to that location on that day, and returned to heaven with Christ.

"Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him." (Romans 6:9). Christ Jesus never abandoned His glorified, resurrected body form that came out of the grave on His resurrection day, even after His final ascension in Acts 1. Of necessity, anywhere Christ has gone since His resurrection (and will go in our future) is done while He still retains that same glorified, resurrected human body form as our representative Great High Priest. Unlike the high priests of the OT who were not allowed to continue by reason of death, the resurrected Christ "continueth ever" in that glorified, resurrected human body form (Hebrews 7:24).

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, that is not what Jesus said. He used the expresson "this generation" nineteen times. Please look them up and study them. He always meant those of His own day--His contemporaries. Always.

Jesus told THEM that THEY were to recognize the signs of His COMING as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree and ALL the trees." This is not about Israel--these are just trees! Those disciples were to live through all of those things--particular, historical things.

You wrote: "The apostles asked Jesus when the kingdom (sovereign self-rule) would be restored to Israel and Jesus told them it wasn't for them to know and only the Father knew when that would happen. That occurred in 1948."

How can I say this more clearly? They did not know the "day or the hour" but they knew the GENERATION. Did He not make that clear in His use of THIS generation? Lizbeth, if Jesus used "this generation" to mean His contemporaries and those of His own day in 18 occurrences, should we not be careful about giving it a different meaning in Matthew 24:34? Should He not have explained how and why He was giving it a different nuance? The creation of the nation "Israel" in 1948 has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Consider also His words in Matthew 16:28. "There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom." The kingdom was going to come in their lifetime. Again, Jesus told them that only the Father knew when exactly, but THEY knew the generation. That is why throughout the epistles, those of that day are described as 'waiting" and "watching" and "being ready." Jesus Himself told them to do so. They did so because He had told them that He was returning to them.

I used to believe as you do, but I could no longer do injustice to the time words and the time statements. You are free to continue to believe as you do, but your approach will never give you cohesiveness. You will always struggle with the timing because it cannot be made to fit your futurist understanding of the NATURE of things (the Parousia, the Resurrrction, the Judgment). The time indicators place them in the generation of those very disciples. I pray you will become willing to look at other approaches that lead to compatibility.

Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2 apply to his time frame and to his time frame only. Paul told them that they would live to see His appearing. In 2 Thessalonians 1 (the chapter most futurists bypass), Paul commends them for their faith and their steadfastness in the persecutions they are going through. He encourages them by telling them that THEY will be "given relief" at the APPEARING of the Lord. THEY would be given relief.

Then in chapter 2 Paul makes it clear that the "man of sin" was someone of their very own day. THEY knew what restrained him. He was alive then.

Respectifully, you continue to attempt to make all kinds of double fulfillments for things because you have an unbiblical understanding of the nature of His coming. You insist that He must come "bodily and visibly." You cannot see how that has happened, so you insist on some yet future event. But He wasn't to come "bodily and visbily." That is not the essence of Acts 1. The KEY there is the CLOUDS. He left in the clouds of glory, majesty, and authority and THAT was how He came--in clouds of judgment against that apostate generation of Jews guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" Mat. 23).

Peace!

I dont believe Jesus is coming bodily, that we may say lo here He is or there......but He is coming like lightning that lights up the sky from east to west.....yes, in clouds of judgment. I believe He has judged the Jews, but not yet the Gentiles. And further, I consider whether He is going to judge Israel a second time, along with the nations....."double unto her double"..."speak comfortably to her and say that she has paid double for her sins". I dont know how Israel will avoid judgment again if she doubles down on her rejection of Christ by re-instituting Temple animal sacrifices and engaging in friendship with the world" and spiritual adultery through interfaith worship. But also that we will not finish going through the cities/towns of Israel again....because the Lord is going to pass His hand over the grapevine and glean it a second time...a second harvest of remnant Jewish souls before judgment comes. As Christendom falls, I believe things are going to be focussed on Israel again. The ploughman will overtake the reaper....full circle. We are to compare spiritual with spiritual with scripture, so the Lord is not confined necessarily to literal context and a single fulfillment of prophecy. Often it is a case of "One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard.....". (and how do we have ears to hear, but by the Holy Spirit) Anyway, just laying out how I'm seeing things......I dont' want to push it on anyone, so I will leave it there. Just please don't have anything to do with the Temple...it's going to be dangerously deceptive.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I dont believe Jesus is coming bodily, that we may say lo here He is or there......but He is coming like lightning that lights up the sky from east to west.....yes, in clouds of judgment. I believe He has judged the Jews, but not yet the Gentiles. And further, I consider whether He is going to judge Israel a second time, along with the nations....."double unto her double"..."speak comfortably to her and say that she has paid double for her sins". I dont know how Israel will avoid judgment again if she doubles down on her rejection of Christ by re-instituting Temple animal sacrifices and engaging in friendship with the world" and spiritual adultery through interfaith worship. But also that we will not finish going through the cities/towns of Israel again....because the Lord is going to pass His hand over the grapevine and glean it a second time...a second harvest of remnant Jewish souls before judgment comes. As Christendom falls, I believe things are going to be focussed on Israel again. The ploughman will overtake the reaper....full circle. We are to compare spiritual with spiritual with scripture, so the Lord is not confined necessarily to literal context and a single fulfillment of prophecy. Often it is a case of "One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard.....". Anyway, just laying out how I'm seeing things......I dont' want to push it on anyone, so I will leave it there. Just please don't have anything to do with the Temple...it's going to be dangerously deceptive.

There’s not even a shred of solid Scriptural support for these claims. Her doctrines are built on assumptions, not sound exegesis. Just look at what she’s teaching:

1. Misinterpreting Revelation 18:6
She claims God will judge Israel a second time by applying “double unto her double” to the Jewish nation, wrongly identifying Israel as Babylon the Great—a claim with no textual basis.

2. Restoration of the physical temple and animal sacrifices
She teaches that a rebuilt temple and renewed sacrifices are part of God’s end-time plan, directly contradicting the finished work of Christ (Hebrews 10:10-14).

3. A massive second harvest of Jewish souls before Christ’s return
This supposed future “revival” of national Israel is speculative and unsupported by New Testament prophecy.

4. God will refocus on the nation of Israel after the Church age
This dispensational idea separates God’s redemptive plan into disjointed phases, which Scripture does not teach.

5. “The plowman shall overtake the reaper”
This is taken out of its Old Testament context (Amos 9:13) and misapplied to support her flawed prophetic timeline. Her understanding of Isaiah 2:4 may be compromised as well.

 

[ScottA]

Second Peter must be understood in it historical setting and through the mind of a Jew of that day. First of all, Jesus told His first-century disciples that He would return to THEM as a "thief in the night" (Mat. 24:42ff). In the days of Noah, they were unaware that the flood was coming and it took them by surprise and they perished. In light of that, Jesus warned His disciples right there with Him to "stay awake" because THEY did not know what day their Lord was coming. It would be ridiculous for Him to tell them to stay awake and be ready for something that was not even going to concern them! He tells THEM that just as the master of a house would have been ready if he'd known what "hour" the thief would come, THEY were to be "ready" because "the Son of Man" was going to COME at an "hour" THEY did not expect. Peter is reminding them of that when he uses the same wording: "thief in the night."

I submit to you that the "heavens" Peter is speaking of are metaphoric. Immediately after I say that, people nearly go into shock because with them, unless something is literal, it is wrong. But the Scriptures are filled with symbols and metaphors and figurative language. It is critical that we be able to ascertain what is literal and what is not.

Peter's audience of his day were Jews who were very familiar with the OT writings. They would have easily understood that Peter was using the language of the OT prophets in his use of "heavens." The prophets commonly addressed the people of Israel: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth" (Deu. 32:1). Furthermore, the prophets commonly used references to the sun, moon, and stars, and the heavens and earth to express God's judgment or punishment for transgressions. In Levitius 26:14, for example, we find this description of the consequences of disobedience: "I will make your HEAVEN as iron and your EARTH as bronze" (Lev. 26:14). In God's judgment against Babylon, in which He used the Medes as His instrument, it is stated that the HEAVENS would tremble and the EARTH would move out of her place" (Isa.a 13). This is clearly the use of metaphors to portray judgment.

Isaiah described God's judgment is this way: "the EARTH mourns and withers, the EARTH lanquishes and withers . . . the EARTH lies defiled . . . they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant . . . the gladness of the EARTH is banished' (Isa. 24:4-11). Notice the presence of heat and fire: "the inhabitants of the EARTH are SCORCHED." In the following verses we find these descriptions: "For the windows of HEAVEN are opened and the foundations of the EARTH tremble. The EARTH is utterly broken, the EARTH is split apart, the EARTH is violently shaken, the EARTH staggers like a drunken man; it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again. On that day the Lord will punish the HOST OF HEAVEN . . . ." (24:19-21). Consider also the words of Nahum: "The MOUNTAINS quake at Him and the HILLS MELT, and the EARTH is BURNED at His presence" (Nahum 1:6).

Jesus HImself used similar language in describing the coming judgment upon aspostate Israel of His day: "there will be signs in sun, moon, and stars, and on the earth" . . . the powers of the HEAVENS will be shaken" (Luke 21:25, 26). God used the Romans as His instruments to bring that judgment in A. D. 70.

I contend that Peter is using that same type of judgment language in his use of "heavens and earth" and the common associated concepts of fire and of things melting. Punishment was coming upon Israel in A. D. 70 by the Romans. Everything pertaining to the Old Covenant, Mosaic Age and Judaism was then about to be abolished in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Those were the "elements" (stoicheia) that were to be burned up. It has nothing to do with the physical earth and its chemical make up--not in ANY of its NT usages of that term
.
When the Romans burned the city and the Temple, the heat of the fires was so FERVENT that the gold melted from the walls!

That is all well and good for that historic context. But just as it is wrong not to consider the biblical use of metaphoric language, it is also wrong to limit the events as only being historic, when much of the scriptures--nay, all the scriptures actually point to and foreshadow their greater counterparts in the heavenly realm.

You spoke of Jesus telling His disciples to "stay awake"--and yes, He was referring to things that would "soon" come to pass. But He also did it three times, and I submit to you--not from me, but from God--that He also spoke of "today, tomorrow, and the third day"--which is all encompassing, covering every generation from the beginning to the end. "Then the end shall come." Which I say to the sleeping of "tomorrow" (now upon us), that you too will not miss all that was done and revealed during those times.

 

[ScottA]

what Jesus said. He used the expresson "this generation" nineteen times. Please look them up and study them. He always meant those of His own day--His contemporaries. Always.

Correct!

But some want to consider it all as many among the early Christians did, as if perhaps they missed it. Which is not what that is all about. Nor are they all just historic events only regarding that generation. What Jesus was eluding to, is that although He "was slain before the foundation of the world" (past tense), if was being manifest in the fulness of time during that generation. Which then also includes all living and all dead from every generation, born before or after--as Paul also eluded to, saying "I was crucified with Christ" (past tense).

The point is--we have come in to "time no more"--not as the end of the world (which was soon to follow), but is the unsealing by "Him who restrains", leading unto "all truth" as promised. It is by this Spirit that I have been speaking to you. In other words, without considering time, by removing the times component to those things written--all truth is revealed. Which was given to me to declare.

Then comes the end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Second Peter must be understood in it historical setting and through the mind of a Jew of that day. First of all, Jesus told His first-century disciples that He would return to THEM as a "thief in the night" (Mat. 24:42ff). In the days of Noah, they were unaware that the flood was coming and it took them by surprise and they perished. In light of that, Jesus warned His disciples right there with Him to "stay awake" because THEY did not know what day their Lord was coming. It would be ridiculous for Him to tell them to stay awake and be ready for something that was not even going to concern them!

Jesus said no one knew the day or hour of His coming except for the Father. So, He didn't even know. So, for all He knew, it could occur in their lifetimes. In no way, shape or form did He say His second coming as a thief in the night would for sure happen in their lifetimes. He has not yet come as a thief in the night! Open your eyes! When He comes as a thief in the night the heavens and earth will be burned up by fire and renewed to become the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells! This has clearly not yet happened! Take your preterist blinders off!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

He tells THEM that just as the master of a house would have been ready if he'd known what "hour" the thief would come, THEY were to be "ready" because "the Son of Man" was going to COME at an "hour" THEY did not expect. Peter is reminding them of that when he uses the same wording: "thief in the night."

Since even Jesus did not know the day or hour He spoke to them as though it could occur in their lifetimes, but that doesn't mean He was saying it would happen in their lifetimes. How could He know that when even He didn't know the day or hour? Think!

I submit to you that the "heavens" Peter is speaking of are metaphoric.

Nonsense! There is no basis for that claim whatsoever.

2 Peter 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

What do you think, that Peter was claiming a metaphorical event with a literal event that happened in Noah's day when the flood waters killed everyone in the world except for Noah and his family? Of course he wasn't. He was comparing one literal, global event with another. When Jesus comes as a thief in the night in the future the earth will be burned up with fire and Peter contrasted that directly with the flood in Noah's day. Jesus also did that.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Like Peter, Jesus compared the destruction that will occur at His second coming directly to the flood in Noah's day. He pointed out that "heaven and earth will pass away" and that no one knows the day or hour it will happen and He pointed out that the flood in Noah's day "took them all away" (killed all unbelievers) and "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". That clearly has not yet happened.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My "teacher" is the Word of God. Your comment gives the impression that my understanding comes from those outside of the Scriptures--from the studies of others. While I appeal to the thoughts of others, as we all do, my final conclusions come from my own personal study of God's Word.

According to Scripture itself, A. D. 70 was the "coming of Christ" and the "resurrection." Jesus placed the resurrection in the lifetime of those disciples standing right there with Him. The elect would be gathered from the four winds (resurrection) by the angels. That would happen in that very generation. It is the same gathering that Paul appointed to himself and those of his day in 1 Thessalonians 4. He clearly stated that he and those of his day would meet the Lord in the "air."

Physical death and marriage do not come to end on the earth. The earth has no end.

When Jesus addressed the sin against the Holy Spirit, he stated that it would not be forgiven either in 'this age" or in the age ABOUT TO come. It was about to come in Jesus' own day. At the Advent of the Messiah, the ages were about to change through His atonement. That age of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, sacrifices, and rituals was coming to a close. The writer of Hebrews spoke of this when he wrote that the Old was "growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13).

The age about to come was the New Covenant in His blood. Under the Old, all who died went to Sheol/Hades to await resurrection. With the coming of the New, the "dead in Christ" in Hades were to be released from their bondage at His coming--in A. D. 70. The "dead in Christ" rose first and were changed, then those still alive were changed and joined together with them and with Christ (1 Thes. 4). THAT change was the restoration of full fellowship with God lost through the First Adam. Resurrection is not the overcoming of PHYSICAL death. That is not the need of mankind. It is the victory over spiritual death--the death Adam suffered "in the day" that He sinned in the Garden.

You aren't addressing any of the arguments being made against your false claims. You act like you are brainwashed and incapable of considering anything except what you have been taught. Jesus did not come in 70 AD. That is complete nonsense. There was no resurrection in 70 AD. Total nonsense. There was no gathering to Christ in the air in 70 AD. Utter nonsense. The old covenant was made obsolete by Christ on the cross! You say "The writer of Hebrews spoke of this when he wrote that the Old was "growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13).". It was not "becoming obsolete" when that was written. That is a poor translation of the verse because right before that it says it was made obsolete. It can't have been "becoming obsolete" if it was "made obsolete". Think. Here is a better translation of the verse:

Hebrews 8:13 (NIV): By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

So, it was made obsolete before this was written. You need to get that straight. So, what it means when it talks about it disappearing is the traces of it disappearing like the second temple where the old covenant sacrifices and offerings were performed. That is what was going to disappear, but the old covenant itself was already obsolete, just like the text says. Why would you think it was not obsolete immediately upon the death of Christ? Do you not understand that His death established the new covenant? How could the old covenant still be in effect once the new covenant was put into effect? That's complete nonsense.

Jesus put an end to the old covenant and its burdensome commandments and "handwriting of requirements that was against us" by "having nailed it to the cross". Once He died and rose again God's people were under the new covenant and no longer under the old covenant and no longer under the curse of the law of Moses that no one (except Jesus) could keep.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[HappyOma]

That is all well and good for that historic context. But just as it is wrong not to consider the biblical use of metaphoric language, it is also wrong to limit the events as only being historic, when much of the scriptures--nay, all the scriptures actually point to and foreshadow their greater counterparts in the heavenly realm.

You spoke of Jesus telling His disciples to "stay awake"--and yes, He was referring to things that would "soon" come to pass. But He also did it three times, and I submit to you--not from me, but from God--that He also spoke of "today, tomorrow, and the third day"--which is all encompassing, covering every generation from the beginning to the end. "Then the end shall come." Which I say to the sleeping of "tomorrow" (now upon us), that you too will not miss all that was done and revealed during those times.

No! Jesus said "all these things" to His disciples. All those things included His Coming with His mighty angels and their gathering of the elect from the four corners of the earth (i.e., resurrection), the Abomination of Desolation, and the Great Tribulation. Specific things happen at specific times, to specific people. They are not to repeated and cannot be repeated.

The problem for futurists is that if something doesn't happen in the way they insist that it happen, they manipulate the clear timing or create double fulfillments. That is not sound hermeneutics.

What is the context Luke 13:32? His words were a message to Herod ("that fox"). Surely, Jesus intended for him to understand them. This entire verse is surrounded by much controversy and debate and DISAGREEMENT as to what it really means. Whatever the "third day" was, its time frame is not clearly delineated by Jesus. Where does Jesus even hint that He is "covering every generation from the beginning to the end." Jesus does give some indication of the timing when He speaks about their "house" (the Temple) being forsaken (verse 34, 35). That happened in their generation--in A. D. 70

What is your justification for associating Luke 13:32 with the statement "then the end shall come"? Those words are not there.