When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[TribulationSigns]

We agree with the Judaean Christians who told us that it wasn't a futurized fantasy.

Judaean Christians?! LOL.

 

[covenantee]

Judaean Christians?! LOL.

Futurized fantasy.

 

[claninja]

Future to it.

"c. of things future; then (at length) when the thing under discussion takes place (or shall have taken place):"

I can totally get behind that καὶ τότε in vs 30 could mean something that takes place in the future, and not immediately within the same time frame as vs 29. But then I always run into what comes next:

• Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Are the events that signal that He is near/the kingdom is near, the very events of the olivet discourse vs 4-29? Does "all these things" in "this generation will not pass away until all these things happen", not include vs 30-31?

 

[covenantee]

I can totally get behind that καὶ τότε in vs 30 could mean something that takes place in the future, and not immediately within the same time frame as vs 29. But then I always run into what comes next:

• Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Are the events that signal that He is near/the kingdom is near, the very events of the olivet discourse vs 4-29? Does "all these things" in "this generation will not pass away until all these things happen", not include vs 30-31?

That generation would not and did not see/experience vs. 30-31. Those verses were not included in "all these things".

 

[WPM]

I can totally get behind that καὶ τότε in vs 30 could mean something that takes place in the future, and not immediately within the same time frame as vs 29. But then I always run into what comes next:

• Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Are the events that signal that He is near/the kingdom is near, the very events of the olivet discourse vs 4-29? Does "all these things" in "this generation will not pass away until all these things happen", not include vs 30-31?

Jesus states in Matthew 24:34: “Verily I say unto you, This generation [Gr. genea] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race – in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means “this race” - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy." Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to “this generation” in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So, even if a limited physical generation was required of the text, it would be one preceding Christ’s return.

I believe He was talking about the Jewish race. They still continue, and will do until they say of that final day: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mat 23:39).

 

[WPM]

I don't understand your point. The disciples were not asked. They did the asking.

OK let me revise that.

It is simply inconceivable that with the discourse which relates to the 70 AD era, there is no reference to its end.

You have not addressed my argument re "the end" above. You have not addressed the NT linkage I showed between the second coming and "the end."

 

[covenantee]

Jesus states in Matthew 24:34: “Verily I say unto you, This generation [Gr. genea] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race – in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means “this race” - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy." Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to “this generation” in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So, even if a limited physical generation was required of the text, it would be one preceding Christ’s return.

I believe He was talking about the Jewish race. They still continue, and will do until they say of that final day: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mat 23:39).

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;"

 

[covenantee]

You have not addressed my argument re "the end" above. You have not addressed the NT linkage I showed between the second coming and "the end."

Which post?

 

[claninja]

That generation would not and did not see/experience vs. 30-31. Those verses were not included in "all these things".

From the standpoint that the son of man coming on the clouds must be understood as a literal, physical, and bodily, in vs 30-31, I can completely agree - that didn't happen in the first century. I just struggle with that framework because that means we are back to drawing lines through the text in order to support said framework, like some do for vs 15-22.

 

[claninja]

Jesus states in Matthew 24:34: “Verily I say unto you, This generation [Gr. genea] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race – in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means “this race” - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy." Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to “this generation” in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So, even if a limited physical generation was required of the text, it would be one preceding Christ’s return.

I believe He was talking about the Jewish race. They still continue, and will do until they say of that final day: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mat 23:39).

ok, so it looks like you've chosen usage 2a - successive member of a genealogy - as how genea ought to be used in matthew 24:34

• 2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
  
  a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

The problem is that genea, in matthew 24:34, is not plural nor is it being used in the context of a genealogy. Matthew 1:17 is the prime example of this usage/definition - "14 generationS (plural: geneai) from Abraham to David" - In this setting, genea still means generation: a contemporaneous group of people. Matthew 24:34 does not say "all of the generations (plural) will not pass away......"

 

[WPM]

ok, so it looks like you've chosen usage 2a - successive member of a genealogy - as how genea ought to be used in matthew 24:34

• 2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
  
  a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

The problem is that genea, in matthew 24:34, is not plural nor is it being used in the context of a genealogy. Matthew 1:17 is the prime example of this usage/definition - "14 generationS (plural: geneai) from Abraham to David" - In this setting, genea still means generation: a contemporaneous group of people. Matthew 24:34 does not say "all of the generations (plural) will not pass away......"

You totally overlooked your 1st meaning.

 

[WPM]

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;"

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

 

[WPM]

Which post?

When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

Why are you including this---and the abomination of desolation was standing in the holy place)? What AOD standing in the holy place allegedly in the first century pertaining to the 2nd temple? What would that have looked like to them at the time? It has to look like something to them if when...

www.christianityboard.com

When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

Matthew 24:3 uses "sunteleia/synteleia". And? What is your point? What about all my points?

www.christianityboard.com

 

[David in NJ]

From the standpoint that the son of man coming on the clouds must be understood as a literal, physical, and bodily, in vs 30-31, I can completely agree - that didn't happen in the first century. I just struggle with that framework because that means we are back to drawing lines through the text in order to support said framework, like some do for vs 15-22.

From the standpoint that the son of man coming on the clouds must be understood as a literal, physical, and bodily, in vs 30-31,

You are correct = 100% TRUTH = Bodily Return of the Resurrected KING of kings = LORD Jesus Christ

The KING is Returning with His Armies from Heaven = Zechariah ch14 , Gospel, 2nd Thessalonians , Revelation chapter 19

I just struggle with that framework because that means we are back to drawing lines through the text in order to support said framework,

No need to 'struggle' for God only speaks Truth = place your confidence in His Word = "Thy word is Truth"

Here is how we avoid struggling in our minds when reading scripture = Matthew 18:1-5 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , John 16:12-15

The moment we deviate from "every word from God" the struggles begin.

 

[covenantee]

The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

"the whole multitude of men living at the same time" is the applicable definition in the greatest number of NT verses.