When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[covenantee]

Yes. But when does He say that is the end of the old covenant, as you claim?

In what verse does Jesus tell His disciples when the temple would be destroyed?

Copy/paste my alleged claim that that is the end of the old covenant.

 

[WPM]

In what verse does Jesus tell His disciples when the temple would be destroyed?

Copy/paste my alleged claim that it is the end of the old covenant.

So, when is "the end" and what happens at "the end" in your estimation?

 

[covenantee]

So, when is "the end" and what happens at "the end" in your estimation?

First answer my question.

 

[WPM]

First answer my question.

No! I asked you to address 2 detailed posts and you refused. No!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When are you going to address my detailed posts? Your one-liners are not cutting it.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of all these back and forth one-liner posts. This isn't a chat room, this is a forum.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No! I asked you to address 2 detailed posts and you refused. No!

There are so many posts at this point, that it will take me awhile to catch up. Whoever asked questions first that have not yet been answered should have his questions answered first and then go from there. That's only fair.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In what verse does Jesus tell His disciples when the temple would be destroyed?

Copy/paste my alleged claim that that is the end of the old covenant.

Typically, preterists claim that the supposed "old covenant age" ended in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that? When would you say the old covenant ended?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You don't think they wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed?

Of course they did. Did you not see where I've said I believe Matthew 24:15-22 relates to what happened in 70 AD? I've said that many times and I said that to you in this thread as well. But, did Jesus say "see ye not the end of all these things"? Did the disciples ask: "when shall the end of these things be"? No. Those verses are about the destruction of the temple buildings, but there is no reference to "the end" there. Your argument is that any reference to "the end" would have to be in reference to 70 AD, but I see no reason to claim that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"the whole multitude of men living at the same time" is the applicable definition in the greatest number of NT verses.

This proves nothing. It's not the only definition. Look at this passage..

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

The word "generation" in verse 33 is a different word than "genea", so, just to be clear, I'm not making that reference part of the point I'm going to make regarding the use of the word "genea" in verse 36. I include verse 33 to show that Jesus is talking about a type of people here that he calls "vipers". And, He, of course, also called them hypocrites several times in Matthew 23. And they were murderers of innocent servants of God.

In verse 36, "this generation" includes those vipers and hypocrite Pharisees and scribes that Jesus was harshly criticizing, but look at verses 35 and 36. Jesus indicated that "this generation" was responsible for all the righteous blood shed on the earth going all the way back to Abel and included "Zacharias son of Barachias" (Zechariah son of Berekiah in other translations), which may refer to the father of John the Baptist, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that "this generation" even includes Cain since he killed Abel. It also included all who killed any righteous people like Abel from that point up until Jesus was speaking in Matthew 23. Think about that. This means that Jesus indicated that "this generation" was not just those living at that time, but rather was a reference to a certain type of people that Jesus has in mind here in this passage. Vipers. Hypocrites. Murderers of innocent people like Cain.

So, again, seeing that "this generation" even included Cain and all who killed the righteous since Cain, you should see that "this generation" is a reference to a type of people and not just those who were living at that time. Some of those in "this generation" who were killed in 70 AD were not even alive yet when Jesus gave His Olivet Discourse. So, to claim that "this generation" only referred to people that were alive when Jesus was speaking is not true. So, "this generation" does not refer only to those who were alive at the time in either Matthew 23:36 nor in Matthew 24:34. Instead, in each case, "this generation" refers to a type of people, including Cain, and including some who were not born yet when Jesus was speaking, but would be among "this generation" that was killed in 70 AD.

With that said, "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 has a different context from "this generation" in Matthew 23:36. It again refers to a certain type of people, but not just those who were vipers, hypocrites and murderers of innocent people. Those people didn't literally all pass away in 70 AD, but in Matthew 24:34, I believe Jesus was talking about all of "this generation" passing away. He was talking about the literal, complete passing away of "this generation", in other words. Which, in relation to the Pharisees and scribes and unbelieving Jews in general, did not occur in 70 AD as some survived and were taken captive.

So, in the case of Matthew 24:34, it refers to the Jews in general passing away, in my opinion. The word "genea" can refer to a type of people, like it does in Matthew 23:36, but also can refer to a race of people. Notice in the very next verse after Jesus talks about "this generation" passing away He refers to heaven and earth passing away (Matthew 24:35). To me, that shows that what He had in mind in relation to the timing of "this generation" passing away was that it would occur when heaven and earth pass away at the second coming of Christ at the end of the age.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, when is "the end" and what happens at "the end" in your estimation?

His understanding of "the end" in verses 6, 13 and 14 was that it occurred in 70 AD. I talked to him at length about that. But, He agrees with us that "the end of the age" comes when Jesus returns in the future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In what verse does Jesus tell His disciples when the temple would be destroyed?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

[covenantee]

So, in the case of Matthew 24:34, it refers to the Jews in general passing away, in my opinion.

I'm confident in Strong's mastery of the Greek.

 

[covenantee]

Typically, preterists claim that the supposed "old covenant age" ended in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that? When would you say the old covenant ended?

I believe that it ended at Calvary. 70 AD was God's judgment and punishment on apostate Israel, and the destruction of the last physical trappings and vestiges of that old covenant, which had ended at Calvary.

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

In Matthew 24:15 we see "therefore". We know the question.

What is it there for?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm confident in Strong's mastery of the Greek.

Don't put your confidence in fallible men. Put your confidence in the Holy Spirit.

 

[covenantee]

Don't put your confidence in fallible men. Put your confidence in the Holy Spirit.

Yes. So I don't have confidence in you, nor you in me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that it ended at Calvary. 70 AD was God's judgment and punishment on apostate Israel, and the destruction of the last physical trappings and vestiges of that old covenant, which had ended at Calvary.

That's what I thought, but it's good to have confirmation. The one thing I dislike the most about what many preterists believe is their false claim that the imaginary "old covenant age" ended in 70 AD. If there is such thing as an "old covenant age" then it ended instead around 33 AD or whatever year it was that Jesus died and made the old covenant obsolete while establishing the new covenant with His blood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. So I don't have confidence in you, nor you in me.

That's good. That's how it should be. But, you also should not have too much confidence in James Strong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Matthew 24:15 we see "therefore". We know the question.

What is it there for?

What do you mean exactly? Don't be vague with me, please. If you're asking what that word refers back to, I already addressed this in detail with you. Do you not remember that?

 

[covenantee]

That's what I thought, but it's good to have confirmation. The one thing I dislike the most about what many preterists believe is their false claim that the imaginary "old covenant age" ended in 70 AD. If there is such thing as an "old covenant age" then it ended instead around 33 AD or whatever year it was that Jesus died and made the old covenant obsolete while establishing the new covenant with His blood.

Depends on the definition. If we define the old covenant age to include its physical trappings and vestiges, then it does extend to 70 AD.