When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

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CTK

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White horse and Little Horn appeared in 500AD?? What are you talking about, and based on what Scripture?
Well, that question would take us quite a few miles away from anything within this posting and I believe it would demand its own topic... and even then, the specific subject would not be the beginning of an interpretation, it would fit within the rest of Revelation that comes before as well as the Book of Daniel.

So, if you would desire to open another topic ... great, but we cannot discuss the interpretations of Daniel that fit quite nicely with those in Revelation.
 

TribulationSigns

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Well, that question would take us quite a few miles away from anything within this posting and I believe it would demand its own topic... and even then, the specific subject would not be the beginning of an interpretation, it would fit within the rest of Revelation that comes before as well as the Book of Daniel.

So, if you would desire to open another topic ... great, but we cannot discuss the interpretations of Daniel that fit quite nicely with those in Revelation.

Let me guess, you believe the little horn has anything to do with the Papacy?
 

David in NJ

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When Christ died and rose? Or in 70 AD when it was fully destroyed? There can only be one answer here.

Why this matters is because of what Matthew 24:15, for one, records.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

If the holy place in this verse is meaning the 2nd temple, that obviously, thus undeniably, means that the 2nd temple did not cease to be the holy place when Christ died and rose, it continued to be the holy place up until it ws destroyed. Which then means since animal sacrificing continued even after Christ died and rose, that because some are interpreting the holy place to be meaning the 2nd temple, their interpretation implies that God was ok with animal sacrificing still continuing, because, after all, per their interpretation, the 2nd temple was the still the holy place until it was destroyed.

Some interpreters seem to speak out of both sides of their mouth. Where on one side of their mouth they insist that the 2nd temple ceased to be the holy place once Christ died and rose, then on the other side of their mouth they insist the 2nd temple was still the holy place until it was destroyed. Don't some interpreters even grasp what a 'contradiction' is? That contradictions clearly lead to lies not the truth?

What does one do then, assuming they are at least humble enough to admit that they are contradicting that they agree Christ's death and resurrection made the 2nd temple no longer the holy place by insisting that the holy place in Matthew 24:15 is meaning the 2nd temple? Do they do like Dispys do, make it be involving a rebuilt temple in the future? Like that is the only option. But if it was the only option, I for sure don't fault them for insisting the holy place is meaning the 2nd temple in that case. Because clearly, a literal rebuilt temple in the future being how one should interpret this, is one of the most far-fetched ideas anyone has ever come up with. And I'm thinking there may have been a time in the past when that was my position as well. And if so, that was then, this is now.

Is there another option? Of course there is. It's involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves. Except 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not involving a literal temple, not the 2nd one before it was destroyed nor a rebuilt one in the future. And the funny thing about it, some of these interpreters insisting the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 is the 2nd temple are on the same page with me concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:4, that it is not involving a literal temple.

Why can't these same interpreters plainly see, that by applying 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to Matthew 24:15 rather than the 2nd temple, now they are no longer speaking out of both sides of their mouth? Now they are no longer contradicting that they agree that the 2nd temple ceased to be the holy place once Christ died and rose, as opposed to it continuing to be the holy place until it was destroyed in 70 AD. But who cares, right? It's way better to contradict something rather than trying to understand something in such a manner where nothing is being contradicted. God forbid, that the latter makes the better sense.

What one should be asking themselves since Jesus was a prophet and knew He was going to the cross, did He too think the 2nd temple remained the holy place until it would be destroyed in 70 AD? After all, keep in mind, Jesus is the one who called the temple in mind the holy place. Would He be so silly to contradict that His death and resurrection would make the 2nd temple no longer the holy place, by then meaning the 2nd temple rather than the 3rd temple, a spiritual temple?

When do some of you think the 3rd temple initially came into affect? In 70 AD when the 2nd temple was destroyed? Surely not. There you go then unless you want to continue speaking out of both sides of your mouth. That the 3rd temple came into affect once Christ died and rose, therefore, causing the 2nd temple to cease being the holy place, yet the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 is meaning the 2nd temple. What a confused interpreter this person is, spouting nothing other than one contradiction after another.
the Temple ceased to be the holy place when the Veil was torn after the Death of Christ on the Cross

no Veil = no more a holy place for it was God who tore down the Veil of Separation
 
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CTK

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Let me guess, you believe the little horn has anything to do with the Papacy?
Of course he is.... there is no other... but once again, you would be taking this topic off in a totally different direction... Start a new topic on "who is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8." In your initial post, offer your interpretation with the supporting scripture. Then, carry that specific interpretation forward through the later chapters of Daniel and then bring it forward to the verses in Revelation that speak of this same person / system. Oh, and by the way, it would be terrific if you were also able to show how the little horn came to be and when, why and where - and, since Daniel tells us "he will continue until the end where he will be destroyed without human hands (God), that should give you a clue that he does not arise at the end of time, but he continues until the end of time.......

And finally, there is absolutely no reason for you to mention the word "anti-Christ" when speaking of the "little horn." This term is used 4 time in the NT only to describe one, anyone who speaks a different Gospel than Jesus - he is not a supernatural boogeyman, there is no 7 year tribulation, etc., all of this was created by the Jesuits as a counter arguement during the reformation to remove the label of the 'little horn" form the papacy.... they were unfortunately successful given the breathe of their church, their established schools, the financial power, and more.

Look forward to your interpretation and support..... Please be specific.
 

covenantee

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And that would be before 70 AD, right? Therefore, the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 couldn't possibly be meaning the 2nd temple before it was destroyed.
It would have been too late for the Judaean Christians to flee if they had waited until the abomination of desolation, the Roman armies, occupied the Temple.

Rather, they recognized Jesus' reference to the holy place to be the holy city Jerusalem itself, specifically, its outskirts as the Roman armies were advancing upon it.

The Judaean Christians recognized this and fled in time, preserving their lives.
 

Exegesis

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1260 vs. 1290 vs. 1335 vs. 2300 days. <- You need to 'see' (let him that readeth understand).

None of you here have solved the above, so what qualifies you to teach Daniel's prophecies with such strong conviction?

If you did solve it, you would have plainly seen that the Abomination of Desolation could only happen at 1290 in the timeline, which is the Crucifixion:

Daniel 12:11-12 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

The timing is very specific and precise. Those that understood the verse quoted above knew exactly when Jerusalem would be destroyed.

Who here can solve it? I will give you a hint. Since Daniel's Seventy Weeks is using the Day/Year Principle, you must stay with it. In other words, all of the so called 'days' must be interpreted as years. None of you have done that. You all have cheated, yet you proclaim to teach truth. You better go back to the drawing board would be my suggestion.

Rule #1: No 'mixing and matching' days versus years to make your theology work the way you want it to.

You all are stone cold busted.
 

Exegesis

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Rule #1: No 'mixing and matching' days versus years to make your theology work the way you want it to.

By the way, this applies to the Two Witnesses as well:

Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Yep, days = years:

Revelation 11:9 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

3-1/2 years.

Hint: Middle of week Messiah is cut off.

Good luck. hlo
 

CTK

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Rule #1: No 'mixing and matching' days versus years to make your theology work the way you want it to.

You all are stone cold busted.

The two dates in chapter 12, the 1290 days and the 1335 days are meant to reveal the first and second coming of the Messiah. First, God will give us the formula for calculating His first coming based on two very specific events. There is only one time element to consider to arrive at this very specific number of days. Once we have the forumula for His first coming, we can use it for His second coming and they will also tie perfectely in with the Fall feasts - Thus, He will return and fulfill the final 3 Fall feasts. He is quite precise and once again, if we attempt to interpret the Book of Daniel and all its prophecies, including all of the time propheciess as they relate to the Messiah and not to some secular event, we will see why He has given them to us.....



Daniel 12:11-13

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that wait, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Almost all the time prophecies in the Book of Daniel have been interpreted by applying the year-for-a-day principle. This includes the seven "times" found in Chapter 4, the "time, times, and half a time" in Chapter 7, and even the "2300 evenings and mornings" prophecy in Chapter 8, despite Daniel clearly mentioning it refers to the "evenings and morning sacrifices." In this commentary, an alternative interpretation has been offered for each of these time elements based on the context found in the surrounding verses. These two time elements are also quite challenging to interpret, but they, too, ultimately point to the Messiah—His first and second coming upon the earth.

Verse 11 represents two separate timed events: the period between when the daily sacrifice was taken away and the setting up of the abomination of desolation. These two events are referenced in Chapter 9. The "abomination of desolation" signifies the crucifixion of the Messiah in the middle of the final week, which equates to 3.5 years of the last seven-year period. The "setting up" of the abomination of desolation begins on the first day of His ministry, marked by His baptism in the Jordan River.

Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy is given in years, with the last week representing seven years. Using 360 days for each prophetic year, the period from the first day of the seventieth week to His crucifixion is 3.5 years or 1,260 days (3.5 years x 360 days per year). However, an adjustment is necessary to account for the Jewish calendar's reconciliation of the solar and lunar calendars, ensuring the spring feast days occur in the spring. Over a nineteen-year cycle, the calendar is adjusted seven times in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19, adding a 30 day adjustment to that year. During any three-year period within this cycle, there must be at least one 30-day adjustment. Thus, the 1,260-day span between the "set up of the abomination" and the crucifixion includes an additional 30 days, totaling 1,290 days. This adjustment is crucial because it aligns with the prophecy’s timeline and helps us understand the timing of His second coming.

God provided a formula for His first coming, which we can apply to understand the timing of His second coming and the fulfillment of the fall feast days. The second time prophecy of 1,335 days signifies the period from Passover to His second coming on the Feast of Trumpets.

This period includes a prophetic span of 1,260 days (3.5 years, using 360 days per year). As mentioned earlier, within a nineteen-year period, the Jewish calendar will be adjusted seven times (in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19), however, within three of the seven adjustment periods there will be two 30-day adjustments. These adjusting days will be applied within the 3.5-year period but fall outside of the seven feast-day periods from Passover to Tabernacles. Thus, from the Passover at the beginning of the final 3.5-year period to the Feast of Trumpets, the first of the fall festivals, there will be 1,320 days (3.5 years, plus two 30-day adjustments). This understanding helps us recognize the prophetic significance and precise timing of His return.

The end times, according to this interpretation, might unfold in alignment with significant dates in the Jewish calendar and their prophetic meanings. This period begins with Passover, marking the start of a final 3.5-year span. During these years, the Jewish people will preach the message of the Messiah for a period extending to 1,320 days, accounting for necessary adjustments in the Jewish calendar. This preaching period concludes with the Feast of Trumpets, signaling the beginning of the ten Days of Awe, a time of repentance and introspection. Ten days later, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, arrives, followed by the Feast of Tabernacles five days after that. Those who reach the 1,335th day, coinciding with the Feast of Tabernacles, will be blessed, signifying a time when believers will dwell with God forever.

Although the exact timing and duration of the tribulation are not detailed in Daniel, it is suggested that this period of divine reckoning could commence after the 3.5-year period of preaching, possibly coinciding with the ten Days of Awe. This interpretation offers a structured timeline, consequently, it might be offered that the end time may look something like this:

1. God will remove the blindness of the Jews, and they will realize the Messiah, Jesus, the One they have pierced, is their Messiah. They will mourn for 30 days in sackcloth.

2. For 3.5 years, they will go throughout the earth preaching God’s Word (Tanakh), His Ten Words and the Testimony of Jesus. (Matthew 24:14, 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come).

3. The little horn will attack these messages and teachings, with all their power and might. Some will accept their teachings while others will continue to stay with the false teachings of the little horn.

4. At the end of the 3.5 years, on the Day of Trumpets, the Lord will come in the clouds of heaven. (However this would mean those who place their faith in the Lord would /may be taken away and would not witness His wrath that will be poured out).

5. This begins the period of God’s wrath–the ten days of Awe. Those who have kept the faith in the Messiah and obeyed His ten commandments will not experience His wrath.

6. Blessed are those who wait until the end of those days when, on Tabernacles, the 1335th day, we will be with our God forever.

Note: Different Jewish traditions and scholars may have various interpretations of how the prophetic timelines are affected by calendar adjustments. Generally, when looking at prophecies, the focus is more on the events and their alignment with important dates on the Jewish calendar rather than on the specific changes made to keep the lunar and solar cycles in sync. Prophecies connected to festivals and times are usually understood based on the fixed dates in the traditional calendar, not the occasional addition of a 13th month. While adding a 13th month ensures Jewish festivals stay in the right season, prophetic interpretations tend to emphasize the significance of fixed calendar dates in relation to prophecy, rather than the technical details of these calendar adjustments.

Isaiah 53:1-3, 1Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Isaiah 54:7-8, For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger, I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you…The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;


In Romans 11:27-32, 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.28As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the Fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 

David in NJ

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The two dates in chapter 12, the 1290 days and the 1335 days are meant to reveal the first and second coming of the Messiah. First, God will give us the formula for calculating His first coming based on two very specific events. There is only one time element to consider to arrive at this very specific number of days. Once we have the forumula for His first coming, we can use it for His second coming and they will also tie perfectely in with the Fall feasts - Thus, He will return and fulfill the final 3 Fall feasts. He is quite precise and once again, if we attempt to interpret the Book of Daniel and all its prophecies, including all of the time propheciess as they relate to the Messiah and not to some secular event, we will see why He has given them to us.....



Daniel 12:11-13

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that wait, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Almost all the time prophecies in the Book of Daniel have been interpreted by applying the year-for-a-day principle. This includes the seven "times" found in Chapter 4, the "time, times, and half a time" in Chapter 7, and even the "2300 evenings and mornings" prophecy in Chapter 8, despite Daniel clearly mentioning it refers to the "evenings and morning sacrifices." In this commentary, an alternative interpretation has been offered for each of these time elements based on the context found in the surrounding verses. These two time elements are also quite challenging to interpret, but they, too, ultimately point to the Messiah—His first and second coming upon the earth.

Verse 11 represents two separate timed events: the period between when the daily sacrifice was taken away and the setting up of the abomination of desolation. These two events are referenced in Chapter 9. The "abomination of desolation" signifies the crucifixion of the Messiah in the middle of the final week, which equates to 3.5 years of the last seven-year period. The "setting up" of the abomination of desolation begins on the first day of His ministry, marked by His baptism in the Jordan River.

Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy is given in years, with the last week representing seven years. Using 360 days for each prophetic year, the period from the first day of the seventieth week to His crucifixion is 3.5 years or 1,260 days (3.5 years x 360 days per year). However, an adjustment is necessary to account for the Jewish calendar's reconciliation of the solar and lunar calendars, ensuring the spring feast days occur in the spring. Over a nineteen-year cycle, the calendar is adjusted seven times in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19, adding a 30 day adjustment to that year. During any three-year period within this cycle, there must be at least one 30-day adjustment. Thus, the 1,260-day span between the "set up of the abomination" and the crucifixion includes an additional 30 days, totaling 1,290 days. This adjustment is crucial because it aligns with the prophecy’s timeline and helps us understand the timing of His second coming.

God provided a formula for His first coming, which we can apply to understand the timing of His second coming and the fulfillment of the fall feast days. The second time prophecy of 1,335 days signifies the period from Passover to His second coming on the Feast of Trumpets.

This period includes a prophetic span of 1,260 days (3.5 years, using 360 days per year). As mentioned earlier, within a nineteen-year period, the Jewish calendar will be adjusted seven times (in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19), however, within three of the seven adjustment periods there will be two 30-day adjustments. These adjusting days will be applied within the 3.5-year period but fall outside of the seven feast-day periods from Passover to Tabernacles. Thus, from the Passover at the beginning of the final 3.5-year period to the Feast of Trumpets, the first of the fall festivals, there will be 1,320 days (3.5 years, plus two 30-day adjustments). This understanding helps us recognize the prophetic significance and precise timing of His return.

The end times, according to this interpretation, might unfold in alignment with significant dates in the Jewish calendar and their prophetic meanings. This period begins with Passover, marking the start of a final 3.5-year span. During these years, the Jewish people will preach the message of the Messiah for a period extending to 1,320 days, accounting for necessary adjustments in the Jewish calendar. This preaching period concludes with the Feast of Trumpets, signaling the beginning of the ten Days of Awe, a time of repentance and introspection. Ten days later, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, arrives, followed by the Feast of Tabernacles five days after that. Those who reach the 1,335th day, coinciding with the Feast of Tabernacles, will be blessed, signifying a time when believers will dwell with God forever.

Although the exact timing and duration of the tribulation are not detailed in Daniel, it is suggested that this period of divine reckoning could commence after the 3.5-year period of preaching, possibly coinciding with the ten Days of Awe. This interpretation offers a structured timeline, consequently, it might be offered that the end time may look something like this:

1. God will remove the blindness of the Jews, and they will realize the Messiah, Jesus, the One they have pierced, is their Messiah. They will mourn for 30 days in sackcloth.

2. For 3.5 years, they will go throughout the earth preaching God’s Word (Tanakh), His Ten Words and the Testimony of Jesus. (Matthew 24:14, 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come).

3. The little horn will attack these messages and teachings, with all their power and might. Some will accept their teachings while others will continue to stay with the false teachings of the little horn.

4. At the end of the 3.5 years, on the Day of Trumpets, the Lord will come in the clouds of heaven. (However this would mean those who place their faith in the Lord would /may be taken away and would not witness His wrath that will be poured out).

5. This begins the period of God’s wrath–the ten days of Awe. Those who have kept the faith in the Messiah and obeyed His ten commandments will not experience His wrath.

6. Blessed are those who wait until the end of those days when, on Tabernacles, the 1335th day, we will be with our God forever.

Note: Different Jewish traditions and scholars may have various interpretations of how the prophetic timelines are affected by calendar adjustments. Generally, when looking at prophecies, the focus is more on the events and their alignment with important dates on the Jewish calendar rather than on the specific changes made to keep the lunar and solar cycles in sync. Prophecies connected to festivals and times are usually understood based on the fixed dates in the traditional calendar, not the occasional addition of a 13th month. While adding a 13th month ensures Jewish festivals stay in the right season, prophetic interpretations tend to emphasize the significance of fixed calendar dates in relation to prophecy, rather than the technical details of these calendar adjustments.

Isaiah 53:1-3, 1Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Isaiah 54:7-8, For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger, I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you…The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

In Romans 11:27-32, 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.28As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the Fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
JESUS is the 70th Week and He was "cut off" in it and HE will Return to complete it = thus 3.5 / GOSPEL / AC 3.5 / 2nd Coming = 1st Ressurection/rapture

You do know that the "One New Man = Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH" will be here until His 2nd Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18
 

CTK

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JESUS is the 70th Week and He was "cut off" in it and HE will Return to complete it = thus 3.5 / GOSPEL / AC 3.5 / 2nd Coming = 1st Ressurection/rapture

You do know that the "One New Man = Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH" will be here until His 2nd Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18
David, I have to apologize... I would kindly ask if you might expand on your comments above.... I would like to truly understand what you are telling me.... thanks.
 

Exegesis

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Almost all the time prophecies in the Book of Daniel have been interpreted by applying the year-for-a-day principle.

Almost? Why not all? Too challenging? I can do it with ease.

This includes the seven "times" found in Chapter 4, the "time, times, and half a time" in Chapter 7, and even the "2300 evenings and mornings" prophecy in Chapter 8, despite Daniel clearly mentioning it refers to the "evenings and morning sacrifices."

Ah, I see you avoided the KJV translation:

Daniel 8:14 "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

I can resolve everything using days. Moreover, my theory requires no mental gymnastics and walls of text and over the top pretentious preaching. A child could understand my theory without knowing anything about the Bible.

In this commentary, an alternative interpretation has been offered for each of these time elements based on the context found in the surrounding verses.

Flip flopping between days and years is no great feat. Anyone can do it. Why even bother?
 

TribulationSigns

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Of course he is.... there is no other... but once again, you would be taking this topic off in a totally different direction... Start a new topic on "who is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8."

You started it. You mentioned it in your post. I do not care about it anyway because I knew it has NOTHING to do with the Papacy. Move on.


In your initial post, offer your interpretation with the supporting scripture. Then, carry that specific interpretation forward through the later chapters of Daniel and then bring it forward to the verses in Revelation that speak of this same person / system.

It is NOT a "person/system." The horn signifies POWER. Not a person. Not a system.
Oh, and by the way, it would be terrific if you were also able to show how the little horn came to be and when, why and where - and, since Daniel tells us "he will continue until the end where he will be destroyed without human hands (God), that should give you a clue that he does not arise at the end of time, but he continues until the end of time.......

I am not in the mood to explain it AGAIN like I did in the other thread. If you want to know badly, do the search feature to find my old post on the subject.

And finally, there is absolutely no reason for you to mention the word "anti-Christ" when speaking of the "little horn." This term is used 4 time in the NT only to describe one, anyone who speaks a different Gospel than Jesus - he is not a supernatural boogeyman, there is no 7 year tribulation, etc., all of this was created by the Jesuits as a counter arguement during the reformation to remove the label of the 'little horn" form the papacy.... they were unfortunately successful given the breathe of their church, their established schools, the financial power, and more.

Forget the Papacy—it’s a misinterpretation.


I do not follow traditions or man-made doctrines. I am orthodox in the biblical sense: holding fast to the faithful Word as taught by the Holy Spirit (Titus 1:9), not to doctrins taught by men or by tradition.

When we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find the little horn and its designation as a king to be symbolic. It is not a literal man, literal nation, system or religious office—it is a metaphor for power. In the Word of God, the horn consistently symbolizes power, not a person, nation, empire, or religious system. Let’s look at the evidence:

Daniel 8:6
“And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Daniel 8:7
“And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.”

Habakkuk 3:4
“And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.”

Revelation 17:12
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

See that? God defines horns as symbols of power. Period. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever say a horn is a man, a system, or an empire. That interpretation is read into the text, not from it.


The little horn simply represents a short period of power. The kings symbolize their temporary reign near the end. “Little” means just that—little. This is consistent. So, we are looking at power for a little while. Does the phrase “a little season” in Revelation ring a bell?

This interpretation may sound unorthodox to man, but it is orthodox according to the Word of God. It aligns with Revelation 20, where Satan is “loosed” for a little season and is given power to deceive and gather the nations against the saints. That’s the true picture of the end.

As for the Papacy? Your view that the “little horn” is the Papacy arising around 500 AD is historically and biblically flawed. At that time, Satan was still bound in the bottomless pit as Christ was building His Church (Revelation 20:1–3). The end had not yet come—and we ourselves were not yet born, much less born again, BEFORE Satan is loosened and gains power again - - for a little while before Christ returns.

So no—500 AD was not the "time of the end." The “little horn as Papacy” interpretation falls short of both the timing and the biblical symbolism. Selah!
 

CTK

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Almost? Why not all? Too challenging? I can do it with ease.



Ah, I see you avoided the KJV translation:



I can resolve everything using days. Moreover, my theory requires no mental gymnastics and walls of text and over the top pretentious preaching as your theory needs. A child could understand my theory without knowing anything about the Bible.



Flip flopping between days and years is no great feat. Anyone can do it. Why even bother?
Ok and thanks for your thoughts....
 

CTK

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You started it. You mentioned it in your post. I do not care about it anyway because I knew it has NOTHING to do with the Papacy. Move on.




It is NOT a "person/system." The horn signifies POWER. Not a person. Not a system.


I am not in the mood to explain it AGAIN like I did in the other thread. If you want to know badly, do the search feature to find my old post on the subject.



Forget the Papacy—it’s a misinterpretation.


I do not follow traditions or man-made doctrines. I am orthodox in the biblical sense: holding fast to the faithful Word as taught by the Holy Spirit (Titus 1:9), not to doctrins taught by men or by tradition.

When we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find the little horn and its designation as a king to be symbolic. It is not a literal man, literal nation, system or religious office—it is a metaphor for power. In the Word of God, the horn consistently symbolizes power, not a person, nation, empire, or religious system. Let’s look at the evidence:

Daniel 8:6
“And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

Daniel 8:7
“And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.”

Habakkuk 3:4
“And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.”

Revelation 17:12
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

See that? God defines horns as symbols of power. Period. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever say a horn is a man, a system, or an empire. That interpretation is read into the text, not from it.


The little horn simply represents a short period of power. The kings symbolize their temporary reign near the end. “Little” means just that—little. This is consistent. So, we are looking at power for a little while. Does the phrase “a little season” in Revelation ring a bell?

This interpretation may sound unorthodox to man, but it is orthodox according to the Word of God. It aligns with Revelation 20, where Satan is “loosed” for a little season and is given power to deceive and gather the nations against the saints. That’s the true picture of the end.

As for the Papacy? Your view that the “little horn” is the Papacy arising around 500 AD is historically and biblically flawed. At that time, Satan was still bound in the bottomless pit as Christ was building His Church (Revelation 20:1–3). The end had not yet come—and we ourselves were not yet born, much less born again!

So no—500 AD was not the "time of the end." The “little horn as Papacy” interpretation falls short of both the timing and the biblical symbolism. Selah!
Thank you for your response...
 

TribulationSigns

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Its funny from what I see here so far. Regarding Daniel's Abomination of Desolation. Many people believe:

1.) Has to do with Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
2.) Has to do with the end of Jewish animal sacrifice at the Cross
3.) Has to do with the 70AD destruction of the temple
4.) Has to do with Roman Catholic Church and Papacy.
5.) Has to do with the statue of one man sitting in a future Jewish Temple in Jersualem.

And what do they all have in common, humm? What did Jesus mean when he said:

Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Why does God say let him that readeth understand? Could it be because He knows that it's difficult to understand, and the unfaithful will view it as too complicated? Indeed, God is encouraging the faithful "who read" to understand that it's Just Not That Simple!!! Simple like look at world history and cherry pick the event to fit their doctrine. That's the whole "POINT" of that extra encouragement of "Whoso readeth, let him understand!" It means we need to come with the wisdom of Christ. It is all about having spiritual discernment in order to see the abomination of desolation. It is the CHURCH all over the world that has gone astray!

So, the question then becomes, who is he that not only readeth, but understands. And shall he stay in this abominable assembly or Holy Place in accordance to all the pundits of Church tradition, or shall he be in subjection to God's word and flee to the mountains? The Lord will decide and His Spirit will lead.

It is the eternal body within whom we assemble and wherein we find our hope. In Christ, not the external Church. On the contrary, God warned the believers not to be yoked together or assemble together with unbelievers to worship, because we have no agreement with them, right? Thus, if any Church is filled with many more false prophets and christs, spew false doctrines to deceive many and is filled with the abominations God speaks of, then it would not only be unbiblical to attend that assembly, it would be disastrous.

2nd Corinthians 6:16-17
  • "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
  • Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"
I want to clarify that this writing is not about assembling together with believers, this is about assembling together with unbelievers, which are PROFESSED CHRISTIANS, like we see today in our churches. This is the abomination that makes desolation). It's ALL ABOUT if "WE," seeing abominations stand in the Holy Place, will stay to break bread with them or if we will obey and flee to the mountains. It's about the man of sin taking a seat in the Holy Temple, and if we will decide to remain there with those who worship the beast. That is what this is all about! And all the smoke and mirrors notwithstanding, God is not mocked by rationalizations of remaining within a Church that has become detestable. Those who refuse to learn from biblical history are destined to repeat it. And those who remain in the great whore who has left her husband for another (Spiritually speaking) to fornicate, will not escape the judgment of God with vain platitudes or trite remarks about assembling with God's people. They aren't God's people that we are to assemble with at that time.
 

Exegesis

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Hi @TribulationSigns . This quote of yours has me wondering:

The horn signifies POWER. Not a person.

This verse states that the ten horns are ten kings:

Daniel 7:24
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings."

Are they not people? What are these 'kings' if they are not a person?

Another example:

Daniel 8:21
"And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Why can't these examples be literal?
 

TribulationSigns

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Hi @TribulationSigns . This quote of yours has me wondering:

First, do you agree that the horns signify power according to Scripture?

This verse states that the ten horns are ten kings:

Are they not people? What are these 'kings' if they are not a person?

Or some people suggested the ten common market states?

That's another well oiled myth, which proves that many people are merely blindly reading from the script of the Premillennial handbook, and not from the Bible. They are following a man-made formula that changes like the weather, depending on the breaking news everyday. In the Bible, the horn signify power (Daniel 8:7). The number ten signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. So the ten horns means the fullness of power that Satan will have after being loosened from the bottomless pit. And the ten horns are also kings illustrating their RULE. Kings=Rules. God did not symbolize kings that they are human Princes, Presidents, Leaders or Prime Ministers of any political nations. They are the rules of the beast through the fullness of the time of the end. They have enmity against Christ and His saints all over the world (Gog and Magog), not the political nation of Israel in the Middle East!

Another example:

Daniel 7:24-26
  • "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
  • And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
  • But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end."
Think about it. The different countries of the world are not going to wearing out (causing affliction to) the saints as prophesied. Rather it is the false Christs, false prophets, man of sin and his minions! Right in the House of God! Where the abomination of desolation stands! Sure, some country is going to persecute Christians physically somewhere, but that has always been the case, since the dawn of man. But the great tribulation for the Church/Saints is something far more sinister and dangerous than beatings or killings! Do you know what it is? It is a DECEPTION so great that if the days weren't shortened, there would be no flesh left on earth to be saved because it could almost deceive the elect too! That is what the false doctrines does to people in the church by the false prophets and christs which Satan rules through! When Revelation 17 says the 10 horns have received no kingdom yet, it is declaring they have not come to rule yet the saints, because it was the time that Christ build His Church to make sure all Elect are secured FIRST (Revelation 7:1-4). After this, after the testimony of two witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished, their (ten horns') little horn (power) comes in as the beast is loosed, as is illustrated in Revelation.

But if you want to keep looking at political nations, states, countries, or human kings, instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself, you will never have any understanding of prophesy.

Daniel 8:21
"And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Why can't these examples be literal?

Literal? Have you seen a literal goat attack a ram and cut the horns off yourself? Or maybe God is saying that the vision has spiritual signification, talking about the kingdom of Satan and the congregations of Israel? And do you even wonder about the two horns of the rams in verse 3 that "were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last."? Do you understand this? Or do you insist it be understood literally? I DO NOT THINK SO! Try to think this way. Horn = power, right? What do the two horns upon a ram (congregation of Israel) represent? Why is one higher than other and comes up last?
 

Exegesis

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First, do you agree that the horns signify power according to Scripture?

Yes, this is well known. However, the symbolism is not limited to just one thing.

Or some people suggested the ten common market states?

That is not something I agree with.

The number ten signifies the fullness of whatever is in view.

The number ten can mean having dominion over something.

And the ten horns are also kings illustrating their RULE.

Perfect. The ten horns are ten kings who have great power and authority. That works.

God did not symbolize kings that they are human Princes, Presidents, Leaders or Prime Ministers of any political nations.

The above sounds contradictory.

Think about it. The different countries of the world are not going to wearing out (causing affliction to) the saints as prophesied. Rather it is the false Christs, false prophets, man of sin and his minions!

I interpret those particular saints as the angels in heaven. They are the 'stars' that fall, i.e., fallen angels:

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

This is the 'falling away'. It is the 'rebellion' of the angels that follow Satan. It has happened many times throughout history.

Right in the House of God!

The House of God in Heaven?

Where the abomination of desolation stands!

Our views are very different here. I see the Abomination of Desolation as the Crucifixion.

But the great tribulation for the Church/Saints is something far more sinister and dangerous than beatings or killings! Do you know what it is?

Yes, the Great Tribulation began in 70AD and continues to this very day as Scripture teaches. Sudden destruction and wrath is what we will experience next.

When Revelation 17 says the 10 horns have received no kingdom yet, it is declaring they have not come to rule...

The ten horns are not of this world. They will mingle themselves with the seed of man, i.e., they are the return of the Giants and hybrids.

After this, after the testimony of two witnesses for the purpose of salvation is finished...

Scripture teaches that the time of the Two Witnesses came and went long ago. They prophesied for 1260 years from Moses to John the Baptist (Law and Prophets). You are flip-flopping with your Day/Year Principle to suit your theory.

But if you want to keep looking at political nations, states, countries, or human kings, instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself, you will never have any understanding of prophesy.

Agreed. Geopolitics is almost always a misdirection.


I find that Christians often 'spiritualize away' things that should be interpreted literally.

Horn = power, right?

Again, Biblical symbolism can have more than one meaning or definition. A horn that is a king is a powerful king.

What do the two horns upon a ram (congregation of Israel) represent? Why is one higher than other and comes up last?

This commentary sounds correct:

The ram was standing before the river, or eastward of it, and represented the Medo-Persian empire (Daniel 8:20). The two horns, like the two breasts and arms of the image, or the two sides of the bear, symbolise the twofold character of this empire. The higher horn denotes the Persians, the dominant race.


And yet, a horn can be a king and a person as we read here:

The large horn signifies the first king of the Greek Empire, historically recognized as Alexander the Great.


The point being that one cannot generalize these horns. They must be interpreted on a case by case basis.