When did the devil first rebel against God?

[us2are1]

The scriptures does not support the above. I am always willing to be corrected if I am in error but there are two things which I am sure about.
1. God cannot and does not lie.

2. He never misleads by writing or allowing anything untrue in his word.

The Old Testament was not written in latin it was written in ancient Hebrew and when translated they had to use words which were the nearest in meaning by the Jewish Scholars.

In the history of Judaism we find that Satan somehow sneaked into the garden in the guise of a serpent.
In the New Testament we see something very important...


John 13:2 & 27

[sup]2 [/sup]And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;


King James Version (KJV)

[sup]27 [/sup]And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


Who put what in his heart? Why would Satan need to enter him and how can he put something in his heart if it is already there?

As Christ had taught...
[sup]15 [/sup]There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
[sup]16 [/sup]If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.


So how did Satan enter him and why was it necessary if he had already put it in his heart to betray Christ?
How can Satan stand before God as the accuser of men if he does not exist?

Revelation 12.
[sup]7 [/sup]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[sup]8 [/sup]And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[sup]9 [/sup]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10 [/sup]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[sup]11 [/sup]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



We need to check what we believe. We need to remember that what we believe can affect what is said in the book of Revelations and elsewhere.


[sup]7 [/sup]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[sup]8 [/sup]And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


If not a person why refer to him as a him why not a her or a it?

I see nothing in scripture that does not suggest that Satan is a being.

The adversary of God is a person. From the serpent in the garden to the final man that Christ removes by fire at His return. They are all around us now. Everywhere. They are messengers of lies and most of them don't know it. Peter was being the adversary of God in the scripture I mentioned before. That is why Christ called Him satan. The word satan means "adversary of God". It always has meant just that and nothing else.

There are many words that should have been translated and were not because of the agendas of men.. Satan is one and angel is another. angel simply means messenger and nothing else. Devil is another word that simply means Evil. Like Christ said about Judas in this scripture.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Until a person asks God for His Spirit in faith they will go on accepting mans gospel in-place of the Gospel of Christ. Still nothing will stop the truth from overtaking everyone here real soon.

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. [background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, [/background]17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' 18"All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; 19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. 20You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

 

[veteran]

You simply speak lies as your father does.

Ezek 28 calls the King of Tyrus an Anointed cherub that covereth.
NEVER is there one reason for you to suggest he was otherwise than flesh, except that only because you love a lie.

The stones of fire were the Israelites!

Just like we are the living stones in the true Temple, purified by fire as described by Peter. You know what I mean or do I need to show you the scriptures?

You need to understand the mind and language of God. Otherwise you'll be sidetracked into silliness like this at ever turn.

Seek JESUS! Ask for His Holy Spirit of knowledge wisdom and understanding and He will open your eyes! It is true!

Peace

Your tirads are unwarranted.

By you're attempt to HIDE that God is only referring to the "king of Tyrus" title when speaking about Satan as that "anointed cherub that covereth" who was in His Garden of Eden, it means you're actually siding with the devil in denial of God's Message there.

Most likely you've gotten that denial from men's doctrines that you follow which have deceived you into denying that Ezekiel 28 Message.

The adversary of God is a person. From the serpent in the garden to the final man that Christ removes by fire at His return. They are all around us now. Everywhere. They are messengers of lies and most of them don't know it. Peter was being the adversary of God in the scripture I mentioned before. That is why Christ called Him satan. The word satan means "adversary of God". It always has meant just that and nothing else.

There are many words that should have been translated and were not because of the agendas of men.. Satan is one and angel is another. angel simply means messenger and nothing else. Devil is another word that simply means Evil. Like Christ said about Judas in this scripture.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Until a person asks God for His Spirit in faith they will go on accepting mans gospel in-place of the Gospel of Christ. Still nothing will stop the truth from overtaking everyone here real soon.

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. [background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, [/background]17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' 18"All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; 19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. 20You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

Now that's a new one, the false idea that Satan or "the Devil" (Rev.12:9) is not an actual entity, but many ones instead.

Haven't you ever considered that the reason why Jesus called Judas "a devil" was because of Judas following the cherub called "the Devil", the "dragon", "that old serpent", "Satan"?

 

[us2are1]

Now that's a new one, the false idea that Satan or "the Devil" (Rev.12:9) is not an actual entity, but many ones instead.

Haven't you ever considered that the reason why Jesus called Judas "a devil" was because of Judas following the cherub called "the Devil", the "dragon", "that old serpent", "Satan"?

"The adversary of God", satan, has no head as Christ points out in his teachings, about a house divided. There are many factions of adversary's speaking lies in God's name. They have no head and that is why when The Lord's two witnesses remove the food and water from earth they will all fall. Because they are all living on the bosom of the beast, saying what ever pleases them, with no faith in God.

The Just shall Live By Faith.

 

[whitestone]

The adversary of God is a person. From the serpent in the garden to the final man that Christ removes by fire at His return. They are all around us now. Everywhere. They are messengers of lies and most of them don't know it. Peter was being the adversary of God in the scripture I mentioned before. That is why Christ called Him satan. The word satan means "adversary of God". It always has meant just that and nothing else.

There are many words that should have been translated and were not because of the agendas of men.. Satan is one and angel is another. angel simply means messenger and nothing else. Devil is another word that simply means Evil. Like Christ said about Judas in this scripture.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Until a person asks God for His Spirit in faith they will go on accepting mans gospel in-place of the Gospel of Christ. Still nothing will stop the truth from overtaking everyone here real soon.

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. [background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, [/background]17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' 18"All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; 19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. 20You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

The adversary of God is a person. From the serpent in the garden to the final man that Christ removes by fire at His return. They are all around us now. Everywhere. They are messengers of lies and most of them don't know it. Peter was being the adversary of God in the scripture I mentioned before. That is why Christ called Him satan. The word satan means "adversary of God". It always has meant just that and nothing else.

There are many words that should have been translated and were not because of the agendas of men.. Satan is one and angel is another. angel simply means messenger and nothing else. Devil is another word that simply means Evil. Like Christ said about Judas in this scripture.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Until a person asks God for His Spirit in faith they will go on accepting mans gospel in-place of the Gospel of Christ. Still nothing will stop the truth from overtaking everyone here real soon.

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. [background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, [/background]17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' 18"All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; 19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. 20You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

Ah! Finally, someone who Loves and understands the Word of God. Excellent understanding. Thank you for your addition here Son of Man. It is a pleasure to meet another brother in Christ with the wisdom of God. Blessings!

 

[veteran]

"The adversary of God", satan, has no head as Christ points out in his teachings, about a house divided. There are many factions of adversary's speaking lies in God's name. They have no head and that is why when The Lord's two witnesses remove the food and water from earth they will all fall. Because they are all living on the bosom of the beast, saying what ever pleases them, with no faith in God.

The Just shall Live By Faith.

That is the lie planted among many Churches today from occultists that I was talking about, the falsehood that Satan, the Devil, is not a specific entity per God's Word.

Those who push that lie from occultism call God Himself a liar...

Job 1:6-8
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(KJV)

 

[us2are1]

That is the lie planted among many Churches today from occultists that I was talking about, the falsehood that Satan, the Devil, is not a specific entity per God's Word.

Those who push that lie from occultism call God Himself a liar...

Job 1:6-8
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
(KJV)

The adversaries of God have been mixed in with the sons of God to this very day.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

[Brother James]

And now we have Christians disagreeing about something that really does not matter....

Yes, and I don't understand where this need to ridicule and attack comes from among Christians.

 

[Rank Stranger]

Very interesting reading. However, you have all apparently overlooked the obvious. First of all, satan could not have fallen prior to the Book of Job being written, mainly because once this evil angel had fallen he was forever banned from Heaven (God does not permit evil in his heavenly presence). And he came into the immediate presence of God with the Sons of God. He conversed directly with God, too.

satan was an angel serving God. He was given a task of tempting men and accusing men before God. And if you think such activity was beneith God, remember that He is the Creator, and He can do anything He wishes with His created beings as long as His activities are contained within His purpose.

More importantly does anyone believe that God did not know that Adam and Eve would fall from His grace? He is omniscient, and knows everything. He even knows how many hairs are on each of our heads as He keeps His eye on every sparrow. The fall of Adam, therefore, had to be within His "purpose". He knew it would happen, and He permitted it to happen. But, He did not cause it to happen. That was their free-will choice alone to make.

Someone mentioned Ezekiel 28:11-16, which are important verses relating to satan. But who was Ezekiel? He was a prophet of God. He was relating a prophecy of the future, and not some event from the distant past.

So, when did satan fall? While no one can say with any certainty, I believe this event (described by Jesus) occurred during the period between the two testaments. I believe God knew it would happen, and I also believe God knew it was in preperation for the advent of His only begotten Son. (There is mention in the Book of Mackabees about a terrible storm, which might be what war in Heaven might look like to men on earth.)

As for scriptural proof, all I can offer is circumstantial evidence. satan was first called "the devil" in Matthew. There is no mention of THE devil anywhere in the OT. There is no mention of demons or demonic possession anywhere in the OT (the lying spirit was sent from God), but there are numerous accounts of demon possession in the NT.

Anyway, just a few thoughts on this subject.

Rank Stranger

 

[veteran]

Yes, and I don't understand where this need to ridicule and attack comes from among Christians.

It comes from the servants of the devil who are here to deceive away from what God has revealed in His Word, nothing more, nothing less.

Very interesting reading. However, you have all apparently overlooked the obvious. First of all, satan could not have fallen prior to the Book of Job being written, mainly because once this evil angel had fallen he was forever banned from Heaven (God does not permit evil in his heavenly presence). And he came into the immediate presence of God with the Sons of God. He conversed directly with God, too.

satan was an angel serving God. He was given a task of tempting men and accusing men before God. And if you think such activity was beneith God, remember that He is the Creator, and He can do anything He wishes with His created beings as long as His activities are contained within His purpose.

More importantly does anyone believe that God did not know that Adam and Eve would fall from His grace? He is omniscient, and knows everything. He even knows how many hairs are on each of our heads as He keeps His eye on every sparrow. The fall of Adam, therefore, had to be within His "purpose". He knew it would happen, and He permitted it to happen. But, He did not cause it to happen. That was their free-will choice alone to make.

Someone mentioned Ezekiel 28:11-16, which are important verses relating to satan. But who was Ezekiel? He was a prophet of God. He was relating a prophecy of the future, and not some event from the distant past.

So, when did satan fall? While no one can say with any certainty, I believe this event (described by Jesus) occurred during the period between the two testaments. I believe God knew it would happen, and I also believe God knew it was in preperation for the advent of His only begotten Son. (There is mention in the Book of Mackabees about a terrible storm, which might be what war in Heaven might look like to men on earth.)

As for scriptural proof, all I can offer is circumstantial evidence. satan was first called "the devil" in Matthew. There is no mention of THE devil anywhere in the OT. There is no mention of demons or demonic possession anywhere in the OT (the lying spirit was sent from God), but there are numerous accounts of demon possession in the NT.

Anyway, just a few thoughts on this subject.

Rank Stranger

There's only two dimensions of existence per God's Word, this earthly and the heavenly. Satan's abode is in the heavenly, even as Rev.12 reveals. In the time of Job, he had already rebelled against God and was in his role as the adversary against God and His people. That he had already rebelled was first shown in Genesis when he tempted Adam and Eve in God's Garden. Notice it says he was in God's Garden of Eden in Gen.2 & 3 as "that old serpent" per Rev.12:9 one of his many titles. So likewise, if he was assigned only some mysterious place down inside the earth, then how did he get in Eden per Gen.2 & 3?

With our Lord's story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16, the rich man was carried to hell after he died and his flesh buried. A great gulf fixed border was shown existing between that place and the place where Lazarus went to. They were able to see each other, and speak to each other across that great gulf fixed border in the heavenly. So the word 'heaven' is not automatically synonomous to Salvation. The question should not be whether one wants to go to heaven only, but to which SIDE in heaven.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

The question should not be whether one wants to go to heaven only, but to which SIDE in heaven.

On the other hand, 'if' the Lord is coming back to set up His kingdom on earth, perhaps the 'other side' is 'under the earth'.

However, you have all apparently overlooked the obvious. First of all, satan could not have fallen prior to the Book of Job being written, mainly because once this evil angel had fallen he was forever banned from Heaven (God does not permit evil in his heavenly presence). And he came into the immediate presence of God with the Sons of God. He conversed directly with God, too.

Hi Rank Stranger,

I would like to point out that the meeting between God and the angels, including Satan's appearance amongst them, could have taken place on earth. The text allows for that. There is another reason too - these verses which indicate angels being based on earth:

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven:

and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
​

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. ​

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

On the other hand, 'if' the Lord is coming back to set up His kingdom on earth, perhaps the 'other side' is 'under the earth'.

Just a side note and probably off topic a bit ..... but several places in the bible do make it sound like Hades , hell, demons etc are actually located under (inside) the earth.

 

[ttruscott]

I contend that all spirits created in GOD's image (including the ability to make fully informed true free will decisions) were created before the physical universe, a time often refered to as either 'in the beginning' or 'before the foundation of the world.'

I also suggest that during this time between the creation of the spirits and the universe, we had our first true free will decisions which separated the self created eternal enemies of GOD, ie non-elect, from HIS elect church further separated into the holy church and the sinful evil church.

The choice by those we know as the damned who self created themselves as demons and devils by choosing to reject GOD's purpose for them forever and so put themselves outside of HIS grace, love and will for eternity, was the occasion of what we usually call the fall of satan or the angelic fall.

Those who accepted HIS purpose for their creation by a true free will choice were made the recipients of HIS gift of election to HIS church backed up by the gospel promise of salvation if they should ever choose to become evil in HIS sight.

Some elect did choose evil by rebelling against HIS call to "come out from among HIS eternal enemies" so they could be damned, self creating their sinfulness outside of the will of GOD but not outside of HIS grace and love. This is the fall of the church the fall of the elect into sin by free will choice.

Then the earth was created.

And so judgment was postponed so no elect would be damned with HIS eternal enemies and we live together on earth (the wheat and the tares) so the evil elect can learn the ultimate disvalue and addictiveness of evil and repent, be redeemed and sanctified unto holiness, fulfilling HIS promise of election and the gosple, allowing the great day of the Lord to come.

Pece, Ted

 

[epouraniois]

I would like to say that because the Lord put this topic in Scriptures for our learning, its a good topic. I admit that not too much is stated, but we do have some reference material, and some revelation. Why do we find this subject in SCripture?

It is for, imo, the larger picture, the big overview. In Jer. 4:22 forward, we find the earth to be made without form and void, however, in Gen1:1, we find God's first movement, and it is creation of heavens plural, and the earth. We read in Isa 45 that God did not make it without form, however, by the time we reach Gen 1:2, the creation has suffered some great catastrophe and it becomes without form and void. We then have the reconstruction of that which was made in vv1, and soon we find the already fallen angel. Job speaks about him as well, while also remembering a time when Job 47:7 I believe, all the angels sang together and the stars shouted for joy. When was that? It must have been before the great angelic fall. Not only Ecc, but Peter also, speaks of 3 earth ages, the world that then was, the world that now is, and the world to come.
Thus, in the previous earth age, we find an angelic fall. Now, while man walks under the sun in the flesh, is the age of redemption. In Eph we read of future ages, but a mos startling, for me, verse is found in the great resurrection chapter of 1 Cor. 15, where we find the farthest forward verse revealed to us, in God's plan for the age times, which states, that Christ must reign until...and it continues for a few verses. Satan is the only named being to be wholly destroyed, the purpose of the ages is redemption, to save that which was lost. In Rev we find that Satan took one third of the angels away, swept them away with his tail. The next earth age has to do with resurrection Glory, the power of His resurrection, although we see it not yet, there is coming a final meeting of the ages.

So something vital to Gods overall plan was lost because of this one being, called, the cherub that covereth, fell away in pride. Yes, there is something big going on, and it's not all about us in this book, it's all about Him, it's all 'for His great names sake'. Search and see.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,


On the other hand, 'if' the Lord is coming back to set up His kingdom on earth, perhaps the 'other side' is 'under the earth'.

That's confusion.

The materialistic idea that Satan's abode of hell is somewhere down in the earth is from those not able to discern the difference between the two separate dimensions of existence. Rev.12:9 forward reveals Satan and his angel's place is in the heavenly, and that he stands as our accuser before God. Just as there's those who think God's Heavenly Abode is literally in the sky atmosphere somewhere in our material dimension, likewise some believe Satan's place is somewhere down in the earth.


Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

End time tribulation events are given with that particular casting out above, which is to show us what time it is for. Some will claim that already happened. It has not yet happened.

Since there are only 2 different dimensions of existence per God's Word, this earthly and the heavenly, when Satan and his angels are cast out of the heavenly it means... this earthly dimension of existence is where they will come. And thus the big "Woe" warning to those on earth when that happens.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I do not approach this discussion with a completed view of what is what and where is where, but I do have a revelation of eternity - of the reality of now in the presence of God - and this is what comes through to me in those verses from Rev 12.

I suggested 'under the earth' because of Phil 2:10. And, those who use occult practices connect with those 'under the earth'.

Regarding's Satan's fall, we have Luke 10:18. I believe Satan was thrown out of heaven before the earth was created - or, finished as it would have been before the Flood - and that's why he's the prince of the power of the air - because he had no'where' to go.

God would have known that once there was dry land, Satan would be there, partly because of his desire to usurp the Son's inheritance.
Job 1:7, Zech 3:1, 1 Peter 5:8.

I am not claiming an end-time tribulation won't happen, but, there are so many misinterpretations of history, I'm reluctant to go along with popular rhetoric. I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing. I'm just aware that there has been fierce tribulation against Israelites, Jews and Christians for many centuries, all of which fulfil different prophecies, and, that 'tribulation' has not ceased. Yet Jesus speaks of returning when everything seems to be normal. But that normality may be a moveable construct, which applies only to the physical generation to which He returns.

Really, I apologise for being so hazy, when you seem to have such a clear understanding. I have a Luke 2:49 complex!

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

I do not approach this discussion with a completed view of what is what and where is where, but I do have a revelation of eternity - of the reality of now in the presence of God - and this is what comes through to me in those verses from Rev 12.

I suggested 'under the earth' because of Phil 2:10. And, those who use occult practices connect with those 'under the earth'.

That "things under the earth" is the Greek word 'katachthonios'. It's simply being used as an expression for spiritual lowness, not literally some location under the earth.

Regarding's Satan's fall, we have Luke 10:18. I believe Satan was thrown out of heaven before the earth was created - or, finished as it would have been before the Flood - and that's why he's the prince of the power of the air - because he had no'where' to go.

Never heard that idea before. God's Word shows us when he first rebelled, as it involved a rebelliion associated with this earth. It's given allegorically in Ezek.28 & 31, and Isaiah 14. A false kingdom was associated with it, the one of Rev.12:3-4 which had only 7 crowns. And it is linked to God's Eden per Ezek.28 & 31.

A mystery: God's Garden of Eden was once upon this earth, which is what Genesis 2 is revealing to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. God's River flowed out of His Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, of which two of them still exist today upon this earth. Satan rebelled sometime after God created the heavens and the earth at Gen.1:1.

God would have known that once there was dry land, Satan would be there, partly because of his desire to usurp the Son's inheritance.
Job 1:7, Zech 3:1, 1 Peter 5:8.

Per the allegory in Ezek.28 about the cherub Satan, he served God originally and was perfect in his ways originally. That involved God's Eden on earth per the Ezek.31 allegory.

I am not claiming an end-time tribulation won't happen, but, there are so many misinterpretations of history, I'm reluctant to go along with popular rhetoric. I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing. I'm just aware that there has been fierce tribulation against Israelites, Jews and Christians for many centuries, all of which fulfil different prophecies, and, that 'tribulation' has not ceased. Yet Jesus speaks of returning when everything seems to be normal. But that normality may be a moveable construct, which applies only to the physical generation to which He returns.

Our Lord Jesus specifically mentioned a time of "great tribulation" that has never been before on earth, nor ever will be again. He gave that within the 7 Signs of the very end of this world for the last generation, per His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. And that idea was actually first given in Daniel 12:1. One can find many doctrines of men coming out of various seminaries that go against that, of course.

Yet it's very true that great tribulation time will involve a time of "Peace and safety" that Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5, and our Lord Jesus showed with the opposite of "wars and rumours of wars" (Mark 13:7). The problem is of 'how' many have misunderstood what that "great tribulation" is to be about, and how it will manifest upon God's people. Most consider it to mean mainly a physical tribulation, and not as much a spiritual one. For Christ's elect, it's going to involve physical trials, imprisonment, delivered up before councils for trial (Mark 13:9-13). But for the deceived in Christ's Church it's going to be a spiritual trial.

For the deceived, a chicken in every pot. For Christ's elect, "Why have you refused to believe this is God Himself?" That's why the deceived who believe he is God having returned will be under a spiritual trial and not a physical one. They just won't know it until our Lord Jesus Christ returns later, revealing that false one whom they received in His place, and He tells those deceived to get away from Him.

 

[Isreal]

Interesting discussion.
Why do some analyze a simple debate question?
Answer it or go your way and let them that want to learn discuss the issue.
I don't understand why some people find it so bad that Christians may disagree.
Can we always agree? Doubtful and we would never grow if we we scared of disagreeing.

It's part of the learning process.
Oh no's..... Don't talk about Satan!
Yes we need to talk about him.


I believe Satan fell from grace long before the Eden incidence.
I've been a Christian a long time and my views have changed greatly over the years but I still want to know more.
If you think your interpretations are always accurate then you are already setting yourself up for failure.

 

[epouraniois]

"things under the earth"

things is in italics, meaning that it is inserted as a help and is not in the manuscripts, this makes it a figure of speech called elipsis supplied. We can remove it from the verse.

Strongs gives the word:

G2709
κaτaχθόνιος
katachthonios
kat-akh-thon'-ee-os
From G2596 and χθών chthōn (the ground); subterranean, that is, infernal (belonging to the world of departed spirits): - under the earth.

While Thayers gives:

G2709
κaτaχθόνιος
katachthonios
Thayer Definition:
1) subterranean
1a) refers to those who dwell in the world below, departed souls
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and chthon (the ground)
Citing in TDNT: 3:633, 421

IF I WERE THE DEVIL, from 1965
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Az0okaHig&feature=youtu.be

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

That "things under the earth" is the Greek word 'katachthonios'. It's simply being used as an expression for spiritual lowness, not literally some location under the earth.

This question is a little behind your original statement, and I wouldn't be asking, probably, if the thread had not been revived... but are you suggesting that those who believe they can go 'under the earth', (through altered states of consciousness and place, invoked by occult practices), are actually deceived so to think they do or have done? If so, this is not my impression through my encounters with such claims.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Some indications Hades could be under the earth ....

Phil 2 ..... 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5 ....... 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5 ..... 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing

Rev 9 .... and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.