When did the devil first rebel against God?

[veteran]

It's pretty clear that his rebellious act against God was disrupting Adam and Eve. After they ate from the Tree of Knowledge is when God cursed the serpent to crawl on his belly, undoubtedly a metaphor for falling from grace.

A third of the angels went with him, and this was probably due to Satan marching up in Heaven boasting. He tried to justify his inequity, pointing at Adam and Eve to show that perfection was too much to bear. Other angels had agreed and left with him.
Just like with Job, and even Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, he is the Accuser and tries to adverse others to justify himself.

That's pretty much it about Satan. One can see how he is the prince of the Earth and dwells in it, because the world refelects him. Mankind, collectively, is tainted with inequity and finds ways to justify it's sins, even if it means accusing others of doing the same. That is why the gospel of Jesus is so penetrating to men.

You're confusing... the time when Satan first rebelled against God with what he did during Adam and Eve's time. By the time Satan as "that old serpent" appeared in Adam and Eve's day, he had already... rebelled against God in COVETING HIS THRONE, WANTING TO BE GOD.

That is the real first sin, the sin that Satan did originally when he coveted God's Throne for himself, per Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

That was in a time of old prior to his tempting of Adam and Eve. We are not told how far back, but definitely prior to Adam and Eve, for Satan was already in his role as temptor against God by then.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

You're confusing... the time when Satan first rebelled against God with what he did during Adam and Eve's time. By the time Satan as "that old serpent" appeared in Adam and Eve's day, he had already... rebelled against God in COVETING HIS THRONE, WANTING TO BE GOD.

That is the real first sin, the sin that Satan did originally when he coveted God's Throne for himself, per Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

That was in a time of old prior to his tempting of Adam and Eve. We are not told how far back, but definitely prior to Adam and Eve, for Satan was already in his role as temptor against God by then.

Coveting is not rebellion. I don't know where people are getting the idea that rebellion has anything to do with a preexisting desire. That is just bad theology. If it counted as rebellion, the serpent would have already been cursed before tempting Adam and Eve.

 

[dragonfly]

Coveting is not rebellion.

But the coveting led him to rebel. If he had been able to contain his coveting, and not let it take him into rebellion, we would never know.

 

[veteran]

Coveting is not rebellion. I don't know where people are getting the idea that rebellion has anything to do with a preexisting desire. That is just bad theology. If it counted as rebellion, the serpent would have already been cursed before tempting Adam and Eve.

Bad theology is shown by the inability to discern the coveting of God's Throne which Satan did in the beginning according to the Scriptures, and not understanding how that was a very grave sin. As a matter of fact, speaking against that specific sin by the devil as if taking up for him is not theology at all. It's a dream castle in a desert with nothing but hot air.

And per the analogy in Genesis of Satan being "that old serpent" already in Eden, what is it that you don't recognize about a serpent (snake) is a lowly position on the earth to begin with? You cannot apply Satan's original rebellion against God to the events in Eden with Adam and Eve. Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 31, and Revelation 12:3-4 makes it clear why that is.

So the next time you feel like making ignorant "bad theology" statements, you might want to study your Bible more, a lot more, pretty clear you need it on this matter.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Bad theology is shown by the inability to discern the coveting of God's Throne which Satan did in the beginning according to the Scriptures, and not understanding how that was a very grave sin. As a matter of fact, speaking against that specific sin by the devil as if taking up for him is not theology at all. It's a dream castle in a desert with nothing but hot air.

And per the analogy in Genesis of Satan being "that old serpent" already in Eden, what is it that you don't recognize about a serpent (snake) is a lowly position on the earth to begin with? You cannot apply Satan's original rebellion against God to the events in Eden with Adam and Eve. Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 31, and Revelation 12:3-4 makes it clear why that is.

So the next time you feel like making ignorant "bad theology" statements, you might want to study your Bible more, a lot more, pretty clear you need it on this matter.

The thread asked "When did Satan first rebel against God" and the answer is "When he tempted Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge"

You all are sitting here trying to say the cause of his rebellion was the first time he rebelled, which makes no sense whatsoever.

The story of Eden was first an oral tradition before it was written, and so the interpretation of Satan being the serpent is anacrhonistic. The serpent is a metaphor for falling from grace, cursed to crawl on his belly, and this curse was not put forth until AFTER the Fall.

So yes, what you all are going on about IS bad theology. In fact, it's bad logic altogether- doens't even make sense. I would study the Bible more, but to study the Bible you first have to have a reasonable mind, which clearly you lack if you're coming at me with all that nonsense.

 

[forrestcupp]

Coveting is not rebellion. I don't know where people are getting the idea that rebellion has anything to do with a preexisting desire. That is just bad theology. If it counted as rebellion, the serpent would have already been cursed before tempting Adam and Eve.

Coveting is not rebellion, but planning to usurp the throne of God is rebellion. That's a lot more like a rebellion than deception.

The story of Eden was first an oral tradition before it was written, and so the interpretation of Satan being the serpent is anacrhonistic. The serpent is a metaphor for falling from grace, cursed to crawl on his belly, and this curse was not put forth until AFTER the Fall.

So yes, what you all are going on about IS bad theology. In fact, it's bad logic altogether- doens't even make sense. I would study the Bible more, but to study the Bible you first have to have a reasonable mind, which clearly you lack if you're coming at me with all that nonsense.

You can't cry "bad theology" when there are obviously different viable interpretations. The devil was already a deceiver, which means he was already evil. The devil is a spirit who is not a physical being. He was using the serpent, which was a physical being, to interact with Adam and Eve, which were also physical beings, in much the same way that Jesus cast Legion into the herd of pigs. It wasn't Satan who was cursed to crawl on his belly, but the actual serpent. Then figuratively and prophetically, Satan's curse was that he would bruise the heel of Eve's seed, but Eve's seed would crush his head, which happened at the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Coveting is not rebellion, but planning to usurp the throne of God is rebellion. That's a lot more like a rebellion than deception.

You can't cry "bad theology" when there are obviously different viable interpretations. The devil was already a deceiver, which means he was already evil. The devil is a spirit who is not a physical being. He was using the serpent, which was a physical being, to interact with Adam and Eve, which were also physical beings, in much the same way that Jesus cast Legion into the herd of pigs. It wasn't Satan who was cursed to crawl on his belly, but the actual serpent. Then figuratively and prophetically, Satan's curse was that he would bruise the heel of Eve's seed, but Eve's seed would crush his head, which happened at the crucifixion and resurrection.

Angels have perfect will, they don't plan anything. Their will is free, but their will is on rails- once an angel makes their mind, that's it, they do not change it. And that decision is made at the foundation of their birth. Which is why Satan has always been Satan, even when he was a shining cherubic lord ordained with the title of morning star.

God did not curse him until he rebelled, and yet God knew that inequity was in him.

The fact is that without celebrants (us) there is nothing to rebel. Why would any angel feel the need to rebel in a place of perfection? The notion never was correct, all these things came about because God decided on celebrants to enjoy all of which He had created, which Satan's very nature and position did not harmonize with.


Either way, saying that Satan rebelled before he rebelled is ridiculous. The thread asked a question, I gave the correct answer, and you all go about the base inequity of Satan. I don't even know how this conversatoin is still going.

 

[forrestcupp]

Angels have perfect will, they don't plan anything. Their will is free, but their will is on rails- once an angel makes their mind, that's it, they do not change it. And that decision is made at the foundation of their birth. Which is why Satan has always been Satan, even when he was a shining cherubic lord ordained with the title of morning star.

Where is the scripture on that? I can't find any scripture that clearly says that all angels have never had the ability to choose.

It just doesn't make sense that Satan and a third of the angels were always evil, and God knew it, yet He acted like they were just like all the other angels, and even allowed Satan to be an anointed cherub until he finally acted on the evil that was always in him. I believe that if God gave them one chance to choose, and then they couldn't change their minds, that event happened as a result of Lucifer's rebellion. Then a third of the angels went with him.

 

[veteran]

Ezek 28:1-19
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)


That's one of the Scriptures where God reveals how Satan originally rebelled against Him. No flesh king or prince of Tyrus ever was in God's Garden of Eden. No flesh born man is an "anointed cherub". And Satan and his angels only have already been judged and sentenced to death by fire in the "lake of fire" so far. That Ezekiel 28 Scriptures reveals how Satan originally was "perfect in his ways" serving God at His Altar originally. Isaiah 14 includes another view of how Satan first sinned against God in wanting to be GOD.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Where is the scripture on that? I can't find any scripture that clearly says that all angels have never had the ability to choose.

The Bible is not the only source of information. You won't find that angels have free will in it anymore then you you will find that they don't.

And constantly asking for scripture when it's not warranted is redundant. You all drive solo scriptura into the dirt, seriously. The Bible did not magically fall out the sky one day.


Perfect will is free will, it's just perfect. Angels do not change their mind.

 

[John_8:32]

The Bible is not the only source of information. You won't find that angels have free will in it anymore then you you will find that they don't.

And constantly asking for scripture when it's not warranted is redundant. You all drive solo scriptura into the dirt, seriously. The Bible did not magically fall out the sky one day.


Perfect will is free will, it's just perfect. Angels do not change their mind.

Where do we go then if not the Bible? The Pope? Oh yeah, he already has done that...

"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73

"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.

"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174

How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church." Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)

"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.
" The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

"Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible and the 10 Commandments?"
"I answer yes".
"Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the 7th day, Saturday, for Sunday, the 1st day?"
"I answer yes".
"Did Christ change the day?"
"I answer no!" Faithfully yours, "J. Cardinal Gibbons" Gibbons' autograph letter.

Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the NEW LAW, that he himself has explicitly substituted Sunday for the Sabbath.

But this theory is entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as holy days. The church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
John Laux A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies 1936, vol.1 p.51

Which is the Sabbath day?
Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday."
Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.), p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on his labors, January 25, 1910.

"The Catholic Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.

In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4

"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213

Exodus 20: 8-11,
(8) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (9) Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: (10) But the Seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (11) For in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the Seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Colossians 2:8 warns us to:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

What power has claimed authority to change God's law?
The Papacy in Rome.
"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even Divine Laws...The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth." Translated from Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca (Ready Library), "Papa", art. 2.

What part of the law of God has the papacy thought to change?
The Fourth Commandment.
"Catholics alledge the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, contrary, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue; and they have no example more in their mouth than the change of the Sabbath. They will needs have to be very great, because it hath dispensed with a precept of the Decalogue." The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran), part 2, art. 7, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Harper), vol. 3, p. 64.

"It [the Roman Catholic Church] reversed the Fourth Commandment by doing away with the Sabbath of God's word and instituting Sunday as a holiday." N. Summerbell, History of the Christian Church (1873), p. 415.

Does the papacy acknowledge changing the Sabbath?
It does.
The Catechismus Romanus was commanded by the Council of Trent and published by the Vatican Press, by order of Pope Pius V, in 1566. This catechism for priests says: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's day. Sunday.'" Catechism of the Council of Trent (Donovan's translation, 1867), part 3, chap. 4, p. 345. The same in slightly different wording, is in the McHugh and Callan translation (1937 ed.), p. 402.

Do Catholic authorities acknowledge that there is no command in the bible for santification of Sunday?
They do.
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp. 72,73.

How did Sunday observance originate?
As a voluntary celebration of the Resurrection, a custom without pretense of Divine authority.

Matthew 28:1 KJV States clearly that Christ Rose on the Sabbath Saturday!! IN the END of the Sabbath, as it began to Dawn TOWARD the FIRST day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is RISEN, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Who first enjoined Sunday keeping by law?
Constantine the Great.
"The earliest recognition of the observance of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine in 321 A.D., enacting that all courts of justice, inhabitants of towns, and workshops were to be at rest on Sunday (venerabili die solis), with an exception in favor of those engaged in agricultural labor." Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., art. "Sunday".

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The Sabbath is not for God, it is for us. The Bible states for us to keep thy traditions, and that one cannot profit anything that is in vain. This is not only just the Christian Sabbath being on Sundays, but also having Christmas trees on Christmas and jack-o-laterns on Halloween.

The New Covenant is one of grace, and those such as yourself simply aim to universally oppress those who recognize and praise Christ.