When Doctrine Corrects Christ

[The Gospel of Christ]

Rev 12 They overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony!

And Revelation 12:11 is true.

It still doesn't say:

Paul alone governs Christians today.

Matthew 25 belongs to a different salvation program.

Tribulation believers can lose salvation.

Christ’s words must be reassigned to another dispensation.

You keep quoting true verses that do not state the conclusion you're claiming.

Thats exactly the problem.

Still waiting.

Book. Chapter. Verse. Please >

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Do you believe in pre-trib rapture?

I think post #236 covered that pretty well already from my perspective.

 

[David in NJ]

I think post #236 covered that pretty well already from my perspective.

Only post i read was your OP

 

[David in NJ]

I think post #236 covered that pretty well already from my perspective.

GREAT

 

[Jack]

And Revelation 12:11 is true.

It still doesn't say:

Paul alone governs Christians today.

Never said it does. Don't you get tired of making false accusation?

Matthew 25 belongs to a different salvation program.

Tribulation believers can lose salvation.

Christ’s words must be reassigned to another dispensation.

You keep quoting true verses that do not state the conclusion you're claiming.

Thats exactly the problem.

Still waiting.

Book. Chapter. Verse. Please >

Your problem is your wild imagination and false accusations that I have pointed out SEVERAL times.

 

[Davy]

Yes, of course. What I was addressing rather, was Jay Ross's referring to "this generation" as a future generation, against what Jesus said of His own salvation schedule of events.

The only... interpretation of the "generation" Jesus mentioned in His command that we learn a parable of the fig tree, is about the final generation that will "see all these things", meaning ALL THOSE SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

So how in the world could He have meant generations of time over centuries? IMPOSSIBLE.

Matt 24:32-36
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
KJV

"all these things" = the seven SIGNS leading up to His future coming that He was giving there in His Olivet discourse. The final LAST SIGN He gave is that of His future coming to gather His faithful Church. He was not speaking of multiple generations with that, but only ONE GENERATION, the final one that will actually SEE His future coming!

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, of course. What I was addressing rather, was Jay Ross's referring to "this generation" as a future generation, against what Jesus said of His own salvation schedule of events.

The only... interpretation of the "generation" Jesus mentioned in His command that we learn a parable of the fig tree, is about the final generation that will "see all these things", meaning ALL THOSE SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

So how in the world could He have meant generations of time over centuries? IMPOSSIBLE.

Perhaps we should note that the Beasts are allowed to live for a season and a little while period, which when added together have the duration of a Day of the Lord, an Age and a Generation, which I understand has a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Matthew 24:32 tells us this: -

Matthew 24:32: - 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."​

We know that from the early spring to the beginning of the Summer Season of the harvesting of Souls, that around 96 days will pass. During the start of the Summer Season of Harvest, Satan and the five beasts will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, after which they all will be released for the period of the Great Tribulation, with a duration of 24 solar years, after which the Final Judgement of Mankind will take place. At the very beginning of the Seventh Age the visitation of the iniquities of the Fathers upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth generation/age of the existence of Israel will come to its completion after which, as Paul states in Romans 11:25b-26, all of Israel will be saved.

In Matthew 24:34 Jesus tells us that during the last Age/Generation for mankind that all that He had foretold will come into being.

The Greek word "Genea" in verse 34 was used in the LXX in Genesis 15:16 where God told Abraham that, In the fourth age/generation of your descendants that they will return to where Abraham was living in the Land of Canaan. From my research, I understand that 4,000 years after the Birth of Isaac that the nation of Israel was established in the land of Canaan in the year 1948 AD.

So in Matthew 24:34, Jesus was referencing an Age/Generation with a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Shalom

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Never said it does. Don't you get tired of making false accusation?

Your problem is your wild imagination and false accusations that I have pointed out SEVERAL times.

Jack, the accusation is very simple to clear up.

Forget the first sentence entirely.

Show the Scripture for these claims:

1. Matthew 25 belongs to a different salvation program.

2. Future tribulation believers can lose salvation.

3. Christ’s teaching is reassigned to another dispensation and is not directly governing Christians today.

That's what Im challenging.

Calling it my “wild imagination” does absolutely nothing to establish any of those propositions.

If I falsely attributed one of those beliefs to you, then say plainly:
“I don't believe that.”

But if you do believe it, then provide the passage that actually teaches it.

Not a verse that your system later connects to it.

Not a verse that becomes the doctrine only after several interpretive steps.

The verse that says the thing being claimed.

Book. Chapter. Verse.

Because so far the pattern has been remarkably consistent.
I ask where Scripture teaches the doctrine.
You quote Scripture that does not state the doctrine.
I point that out.

And instead of producing the missing text, you accuse me of imagining things.

That still leaves the original question sitting right where it was.

Where does the Bible actually say it? >

 

[Jack]

Jack, the accusation is very simple to clear up.

Forget the first sentence entirely.

Show the Scripture for these claims:

1. Matthew 25 belongs to a different salvation program.

2. Future tribulation believers can lose salvation.

3. Christ’s teaching is reassigned to another dispensation and is not directly governing Christians today.

That's what Im challenging.

Calling it my “wild imagination” does absolutely nothing to establish any of those propositions.

If I falsely attributed one of those beliefs to you, then say plainly:
“I don't believe that.”

But if you do believe it, then provide the passage that actually teaches it.

Not a verse that your system later connects to it.

Not a verse that becomes the doctrine only after several interpretive steps.

The verse that says the thing being claimed.

Book. Chapter. Verse.

Because so far the pattern has been remarkably consistent.
I ask where Scripture teaches the doctrine.
You quote Scripture that does not state the doctrine.
I point that out.

And instead of producing the missing text, you accuse me of imagining things.

That still leaves the original question sitting right where it was.

Where does the Bible actually say it? >

I would recommend a psychiatrist but you would probably drive him nuts.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Perhaps we should note that the Beasts are allowed to live for a season and a little while period, which when added together have the duration of a Day of the Lord, an Age and a Generation, which I understand has a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Matthew 24:32 tells us this: -

Matthew 24:32: - 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."​

We know that from the early spring to the beginning of the Summer Season of the harvesting of Souls, that around 96 days will pass. During the start of the Summer Season of Harvest, Satan and the five beasts will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, after which they all will be released for the period of the Great Tribulation, with a duration of 24 solar years, after which the Final Judgement of Mankind will take place. At the very beginning of the Seventh Age the visitation of the iniquities of the Fathers upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth generation/age of the existence of Israel will come to its completion after which, as Paul states in Romans 11:25b-26, all of Israel will be saved.

In Matthew 24:34 Jesus tells us that during the last Age/Generation for mankind that all that He had foretold will come into being.

The Greek word "Genea" in verse 34 was used in the LXX in Genesis 15:16 where God told Abraham that, In the fourth age/generation of your descendants that they will return to where Abraham was living in the Land of Canaan. From my research, I understand that 4,000 years after the Birth of Isaac that the nation of Israel was established in the land of Canaan in the year 1948 AD.

So in Matthew 24:34, Jesus was referencing an Age/Generation with a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Shalom

Now “this generation” means 1,024 solar years?

Where does Jesus say that?

Matthew 24:34 says:

“THIS generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

It doesn't say:

“This 1,024-year age.”

It doesn't say:

96 days + 1,000 years + 24 years = the definition of generation.

It doesn't say that genea in Matthew 24:34 is a mathematical code requiring Genesis, Revelation, a 1,000-year imprisonment, a 24-year tribulation, and a solar-year calculation before Jesus' disciples could understand what He meant.

And Genesis 15:16 doesn't remotely say:

“A generation is 1,024 solar years.”

It simply says:

“in the fourth generation.”

So we're back to the same question this entire thread keeps producing:

Where did Jesus define “this generation” as a period lasting 1,024 years?

Book. Chapter. Verse.

Because if I need a multi-book mathematical reconstruction that Jesus never gave His audience in order to make the words “this generation” mean something other than what they naturally communicated to the people standing there in front of Him...

then the calculation isn't explaining Jesus.

The calculation is replacing Him.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I would recommend a psychiatrist but you would probably drive him nuts.

So instead of answering:

1. Where does Scripture say Matthew 25 belongs to a different salvation program?

2. Where does Scripture say future tribulation believers can lose salvation?

3. Where does Scripture say Christ’s teaching is reassigned to another dispensation?

…you recommend a psychiatrist.

That's not an answer.

It's an insult used in place of one.

I even gave you the easiest possible way out - if I falsely attributed those beliefs to you, simply say: “I don't believe that.”

But you didn’t.

And if you do believe them, then show the Scripture that teaches them.

You didn’t do that either.

So the questions remain exactly where they were originally..

Book. Chapter. Verse. Please >

Unfortunately for you, a psychiatric joke doesn't produce the missing text.

 

[Jack]

Unfortunately for you, a psychiatric joke doesn't produce the missing text.

I wish it was a joke!

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The reason this system is so hard to unlearn when somebody is raised in it is that eventually the system stops sounding like a system.

Its conclusions become shorthand.

“Daniel’s seventieth week.”
“The Church Age.”
“The prophetic clock.”
“Tribulation saints.”
“Rightly dividing.”

And on and on.

If you've never seen it, go watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode “Darmok.”

Picard is stranded with an alien captain whose language is built around phrases like:

“Shaka, when the walls fell.”

Picard understands the individual words.

But he has absolutely no idea what the man is saying because the phrase represents an entire story Picard was never taught.

To the alien captain, the meaning is obvious.

To Picard, it's gibberish.


That's remarkably close to what happens here.

Someone says:

“Daniel’s seventieth week.”

And inside the system that tiny phrase may silently mean:

69 weeks happened, God stopped Israel’s prophetic clock, inserted a roughly 2,000-year Church Age, removes the Church, restarts the clock, and then the final seven-year tribulation begins.

But Daniel never says that sentence.

The phrase is carrying the entire story.

Then children grow up hearing the shorthand from parents, pastors, study Bibles and prophecy teachers generation after generation until eventually nobody hears:

“Here's a theological construction made from several interpretive steps.”

They hear:

“This is simply what the Bible says.”

To the point that they've been taught to read and interpret the Bible through the theological construction they were fed, instead of letting the Bible itself determine what it says.

And there is a biblical parallel.

Jesus confronted people who had inherited religious shorthand of their own:

“Corban.”

One little religious word carried an entire accepted system behind it.
Everybody inside the tradition knew what it meant.

But Jesus went straight through the shorthand and asked what the Word of God actually said, accusing them of:
“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition.”
— Mark 7:13

That's the question here.

Strip away:

“Church Age.”
“Prophetic clock.”
“Tribulation saints.”
“Seventieth week.”

Now open the Bible.

Where does the text itself actually say the enormous story those phrases have come to represent?

Because once religious shorthand becomes powerful enough (as in the case here) people stop using Scripture to test the system.

They start using the system to translate Scripture.

And after being raised in that language long enough, the system becomes so automatic that they no longer even hear the interpretive steps being added.

They hear:

“Daniel’s seventieth week.”

And their mind instantly supplies:

prophetic clock stopped, Church Age inserted, Church removed, clock restarted, seven-year tribulation begins.

None of that has to be said anymore.

The system says it for them.

So when somebody outside the system opens Daniel and asks:

“Yea, but where does it actually say that?”

they almost seem confused by the question.

Because to them, it does say it.

Not because the words are actually there.

But because they've been taught the language so thoroughly that they can no longer easily distinguish between:

what the Bible says

and

what their system automatically tells them the Bible means.

That's why this is so difficult to undo

They aren't merely defending a doctrine.

They're reading the Bible in a language the doctrine taught them... a theological vocabulary that the Apostolic Fathers themselves would not have recognized as the language of the faith they received. And that should stop anyone cold.

Because if Christians from the generations closest to the apostles wouldn't have even understood what you were talking about, then maybe we should stop pretending this is all just “obviously what Scripture says.”

Maybe the problem isn't that everyone else somehow can't see it.

Maybe the system taught you to see something that isn't actually there.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I was too cordial up above in this section, so let me rephrase it to make sure the point is understood.


"Then children grow up hearing the shorthand from parents, pastors, study Bibles and prophecy teachers generation after generation until eventually nobody hears:

“Here's an OUTRAGEOUS theological construction made from several interpretive steps that would've made the Apostolic fathers recoil in horror, tear their robes, fall to their knees screaming as loud as a human being possibly can - ‘WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?!’"

Instead of that they hear:

“This is simply what the Bible says.”

 

[Davy]

Perhaps we should note that the Beasts are allowed to live for a season and a little while period, which when added together have the duration of a Day of the Lord, an Age and a Generation, which I understand has a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Nah... that's that Ellen White stuff again, a day for a year applied to all Bible prophecy, which does not work.

The "day of the Lord" one can... assume is the whole "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign that begins at His future coming. But it's START is the LAST DAY of this present world with Jesus' coming "as a thief", like He said in Revelation 16:15. Apostles Paul and Peter also revealed that "day of the Lord" also starting with Christ's coming 'as a thief in the night.'

Last Day means Last Day of THIS PRESENT WORLD, not a day having started 1024 years ago.

 

[ScottA]

The only... interpretation of the "generation" Jesus mentioned in His command that we learn a parable of the fig tree, is about the final generation that will "see all these things", meaning ALL THOSE SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.
So how in the world could He have meant generations of time over centuries? IMPOSSIBLE.
Matt 24:32-36
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Are you so blind?

John 15:5
“I am the vine, you are the branches.

 

[Davy]

Are you so blind?

John 15:5
“I am the vine, you are the branches.

Is that really... the best you can come up with? changing the subject?

Are you doing the Origen of Alexandria, Egypt thing again?

 

[ScottA]

Perhaps we should note that the Beasts are allowed to live for a season and a little while period, which when added together have the duration of a Day of the Lord, an Age and a Generation, which I understand has a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Matthew 24:32 tells us this: -

Matthew 24:32: - 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."​

We know that from the early spring to the beginning of the Summer Season of the harvesting of Souls, that around 96 days will pass. During the start of the Summer Season of Harvest, Satan and the five beasts will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, after which they all will be released for the period of the Great Tribulation, with a duration of 24 solar years, after which the Final Judgement of Mankind will take place. At the very beginning of the Seventh Age the visitation of the iniquities of the Fathers upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth generation/age of the existence of Israel will come to its completion after which, as Paul states in Romans 11:25b-26, all of Israel will be saved.

In Matthew 24:34 Jesus tells us that during the last Age/Generation for mankind that all that He had foretold will come into being.

The Greek word "Genea" in verse 34 was used in the LXX in Genesis 15:16 where God told Abraham that, In the fourth age/generation of your descendants that they will return to where Abraham was living in the Land of Canaan. From my research, I understand that 4,000 years after the Birth of Isaac that the nation of Israel was established in the land of Canaan in the year 1948 AD.

So in Matthew 24:34, Jesus was referencing an Age/Generation with a duration of 1,024 solar years.

Shalom

The times of this world are not the measure.

Notice that when the harvest was "already white for harvest":

John 4:35​

Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!​

Notice also when the branches of the fig tree "has already become tender and puts forth leaves":

John 15:5​

“I am the vine, you are the branches.​

 

[ScottA]

Is that really... the best you can come up with? changing the subject?

Are you doing the Origen of Alexandria, Egypt thing again?

You hypocrites--you have a "thing" or an 'ism for everything!

But yes, the very Word of God proving you wrong, is "best."

 

[Davy]

You hypocrites--you have a "thing" or an 'ism for everything!

But yes, the very Word of God proving you wrong, is "best."

Obviously Scott loves to argue more than staying with the actual Bible Scripture, so I'm done. Like Benjamin Franklin said, "those who won't listen can't be helped."