When exactly do you become a Christian?

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GodsGrace

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“Christianity, these days, could mean anything.”

I don’t think it can - perhaps you are using hyperbole - but I do believe Christianity is a spectrum which began before orthodoxy with the Jewish sect (Jewish Christianity),includes orthodoxy, and extends beyond orthodoxy.

A couple of days ago I posted the following quote from Gavin Ortlund (a Protestant pastor; Baptist) and it received little attention -

“The early church did not look Protestant.

It also did not look Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

The early church looked like the early church: imperial, diverse, foreign, changing, harsh, beautiful, and profound.

It is a tradition we all relate to but no single church today owns.”


I’d like to hear your thoughts on what he said.
I'm very familiar with Gavin Ortlund.

The early church certainly did not look Protestant due to the fact that it was more compact in its belief system.
On some doctrine they all agreed.
On some doctrine there was SLIGHT disagreement....
It took some time to sort out all ideas and teachings of the NT, both those of Jesus and those of the Apostles.
The divinity of Jesus was believed from the beginning, but how to explain it took time because there had never been anyone like Him before.

The early church was Catholic.
The problem is that the CC changed over time and added to scripture.
I don't know enough about history to know why,,,but my guess would be 1. to make money (indulgences) 2. to keep the population under control.

Gavin Ortlund is very familiar with early church history and tries his best to be fair.
Imperial
Diverse
Foreign
Changing
Harsh
Beautiful
Profound

We'd have to know what he means by each definition.
It was imperial in the true sense of the word but only after 7 or 8 hundred years when rulers of some countries required the approval of the Pope in order to take office.

Diverse? I don't think so. Diversity was not welcomed...this is the reason why it was compact. Being a Christian meant something very specific -

Foreign - How? Many ideas were foreign --- philosophy was foreign to many.
Was God foreign?

Changing -
I don't know Mathias...you're making me think too hard!

It probably was all these things....
but what does that have to do with my pet peeve these days...
persons calling themselves Christian that do not hold to Christian tenets....

Again, I emphasize that this does not mean that salvation cannot be theirs.
Some conflate the two.
 
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GodsGrace

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The doctrine of the Trinity, was created about 400 Yrs after Christ was Crucified.

So, it was not beleived by 400 yrs of born again Christians, as it was not created as a Theology.

No one has to beleive in the Trinity to be a Christian.

God only requires faith in Christ., to become a Christian.
This is NOT true Behold.
And your last sentence is WRONG.

To be considered Christian one MUST believe in the Trinity...
one must believe that Jesus is God.
One must believe in at least one of the creeds.

Jesus was believed to be divine from the beginning.....
should I go ahead and post what the Apostles taught others?

Ignatius was taught by John....
here is what Ignatius was taught.
YOU may not be interested, but some reading along might be...
@walter should be interested - but who knows.


Ignatius of Antioch​

Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).



Tatian the Syrian​

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis​

“The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus​

“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).


Clement of Alexandria​

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son” (ibid., 10:110:1).


There's a lot more, but the above should be sufficient to reject your incorrect history of the teachings of the church.

The church believed in the divinity of Jesus from the beginning.....
beginning in the NT and even in the OT.

What is gained by rejecting this is not understandable to me.
Jesus was God in the flesh.

The word made flesh.
John 1:1 the Word was in the beginning.
John 1:14 the Word became flesh.


Only the LANGUAGE was defined...
NOT the idea of Jesus being §God.
THIS was always accepted,

§Thomas:
MY LORD AND MY GOD.

Peter:
YOU ARE THE CHRIST,
THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

(a son takes on the nature of his father).
 

Behold

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To be considered Christian one MUST believe in the Trinity...

No BIBLE teaches that you have to believe in the Trinity, to become or remain a Christian.

Its the CATHOLIC "doctrine of devils" that says you must believe in the Trinity.

See...Its God who decides who is a Christian, and Jesus said that the only reason He will, is if you come to The Cross, and take God's Salvation, by Faith.

And do us a favor, and stop posting Catholic Cult "church fathers" nonsense, as only Catholics are duped by it.
 

walter

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You're not studying scripture Walter.
Here is Jesus words and the apostles words in agreement. Before and After Jesus ascension to heaven.
Jesus speaks clearly: my Father is your Father, my God is your God.


Jn. 17:3, 1Pet. 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Rom. 15:6, Eph. 1:17, Jn. 20:17, 1Cor. 8:6, 1Tim. 2:5, Jn. 5:30, 5:19, 6:38, 8:28, 14:10;
Matt. 16:16-17, 28:18

============================================================================================

I have been researching the Trinity since 1980, if we look at the Nicene Creed in the year 325AD or any other year, we will always find words Jesus never spoke.

I like to explain all my fundamental beliefs with strictly scriptures only. first I listen to what Jesus said, second I listen to the words of the Apostles especially if they agree with Jesus words, then I look for any other scriptures that agrees in the rest of the Bible.

I do not use the words from myself or anything that has been said at any time in history.

Jesus never uses the words: "Trinity" "of the same essence" "God the Son" "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent" or the words in any creed throughout history and Jesus never explains that the Holy Spirit is also a equal God. Theologians say the Bible reveals these facts, but I listen to the words from Jesus and the Apostles that are written down in the Bible.

John 1:1 is translated in many different ways, most of the ways agree with the Trinity, others do not, Theologians say that Jesus called himself the great "I am", this scripture is also translated in many different ways too, I look for translations that agree with Jesus' own words not the ones that disagree, and not the words of the religious leaders that captured Jesus and led him to his death.
 

GodsGrace

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No BIBLE teaches that you have to believe in the Trinity, to become or remain a Christian.

Its the CATHOLIC "doctrine of devils" that says you must believe in the Trinity.

See...Its God who decides who is a Christian, and Jesus said that the only reason He will, is if you come to The Cross, and take God's Salvation, by Faith.

And do us a favor, and stop posting Catholic Cult "church fathers" nonsense, as only Catholics are duped by it.
There's your problem Behold.
You like to believe what YOU like to believe...
even if it's not the same as what the Apostles taught.

If you do not believe Jesus is God...
and you're following a mere man...
what makes you think THAT is Christianity?

And if Jesus is God...
HOW is Jesus God.

Brains better than ours have figured this out.
Persons lived with Jesus for over 3 years and learned who He is and understood that He is not a mere human person.

Christianity was defined 2 thousand years ago...
we do NOT retain the right to define it again now.

A person is either Christian or they're some other religion, but not the Christian religion.

And God's salvation is NOT only by faith.
That is what the reformed believe....this belief did not exist in the church until Luther, Calvin and the rest.

They've created a new religion which has doctrine different from the original church.
They ARE Christian because they taught the Trinity and the gospel message.

At some point, these teachings were abandoned and something DIFFERENT than Christianity started to be taught.
Teachings that are NOT of the original church and the original teachings by those that knew Jesus and the Apostles whom He taught.

The early theologians are those that were taught by the Apostels.

If you prefer to learn from those removed by them by time and incorrect doctrine,,,
it is your prerogative to do so,,,

But please stop promoting the idea that they are not important.
Those YOU are learning from are the ones that are not important and are teaching incorrect doctrine.

And I thought you believed in the Trinity.....
No matter.
You have a lot of doctrine wrong.
 

GodsGrace

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Here is Jesus words and the apostles words in agreement. Before and After Jesus ascension to heaven.

Jn. 17:3, 1Pet. 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Rom. 15:6, Eph. 1:17, Jn. 20:17, 1Cor. 8:6, 1Tim. 2:5, Jn. 5:30, 5:19, 6:38, 8:28, 14:10;
Matt. 16:16-17, 28:18

============================================================================================

I have been researching the Trinity since 1980, if we look at the Nicene Creed in the year 325AD or any other year, we will always find words Jesus never spoke.

I like to explain all my fundamental beliefs with strictly scriptures only. first I listen to what Jesus said, second I listen to the words of the Apostles especially if they agree with Jesus words, then I look for any other scriptures that agrees in the rest of the Bible.

I do not use the words from myself or anything that has been said at any time in history.

Jesus never uses the words: "Trinity" "of the same essence" "God the Son" "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal and co-existent" or the words in any creed throughout history and Jesus never explains that the Holy Spirit is also a equal God. Theologians say the Bible reveals these facts, but I listen to the words from Jesus and the Apostles that are written down in the Bible.

John 1:1 is translated in many different ways, most of the ways agree with the Trinity, others do not, Theologians say that Jesus called himself the great "I am", this scripture is also translated in many different ways too, I look for translations that agree with Jesus' own words not the ones that disagree, and not the words of the religious leaders that captured Jesus and led him to his death.
YOU said you listened only to the words of Jesus.

I posted ONLY words that Jesus spoke.

YOU do not listen to the words of the Apostles unless you agree with those who wrote what I posted in no. 202

You like to believe what you like to believe and what makes some kind of sense to YOU....
You do not like what those that the Apostles taught believed.

Jesus never said to smoke pot.
Do you think it's OK to smoke pot?

Jesus never said that abortion is wrong.
Do you think abortion is wrong?

Looks like Jesus didn't use EXACT language many times.

So it looks like you accept what Jesus taught ONLY when it suits YOU.
 

Behold

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There's your problem Behold.
You like to believe what YOU like to believe...
even if it's not the same as what the Apostles taught.

No Aposle in any bible ever taught that you have to believe the Trinity doctrine, or "believe in the Trinity".

All the apostles were dead by 99 AD...and the Trinity doctrine was created about 300 yrs later.

Now, the Theololgy that God became a man, is true.
But what isn't true is that you have to believe this, to be a Christian.

Consider that a Christian, who became one today........was a lifetime sinner., and has now become born again.
When did they believe in the Trinity?
They haven't so far, as they are only saved 15 seconds ago......so, are they a Christian?
Yes they are, and they have not "believed the Trinity doctrine".
 
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walter

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YOU said you listened only to the words of Jesus.

I posted ONLY words that Jesus spoke.

YOU do not listen to the words of the Apostles unless you agree with those who wrote what I posted in no. 202

You like to believe what you like to believe and what makes some kind of sense to YOU....
You do not like what those that the Apostles taught believed.

Jesus never said to smoke pot.
Do you think it's OK to smoke pot?

Jesus never said that abortion is wrong.
Do you think abortion is wrong?

Looks like Jesus didn't use EXACT language many times.

So it looks like you accept what Jesus taught ONLY when it suits YOU.
You have some scriptures and I have some scriptures wouldn't the truth be derived from getting our understanding from all the scriptures available on that Bible topic? 100% harmony?
 

GodsGrace

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@Behold @walter


Here are some more early church theologians BEFORE the council of Nicea....

and there's even more....:


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5
Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6
For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7
I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8
Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9
Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10
Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11
Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12
The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13
For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14
Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16
He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17
Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19
Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21
For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22
 

GodsGrace

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You have some scriptures and I have some scriptures wouldn't the truth be derived from getting our understanding from all the scriptures available on that Bible topic? 100% harmony?
Yes sir.
Except you don't want to hear ALL scripture but depend on what you believe to be true.

You're looking for excuses to what Jesus plainly stated.

When He said I AM...He said EGO IME.....EGO EIMI
which simply means I am....

but taken to its full meaning in Greek, it means I AM, I WAS, I WILL BE...
IOW I always was...I exist.

And this clearly referred back to the burning bush when God Yahweh declared I AM.

Thomas, an Apostle, called Him My God.
Peter called Him the Son of God.
The Apostles taught those that came after them that Jesus was divine...that He was God.
I've posted many statements from some that the Apostles taught personally...

If we can't believe them,
who can we believe?

If you combine everything - scripture in general, Jesus' statements, and what the Apostles taught,
we have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.

I see no way out of this.
 

walter

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Yes sir.
Except you don't want to hear ALL scripture but depend on what you believe to be true.

You're looking for excuses to what Jesus plainly stated.

When He said I AM...He said EGO IME.....EGO EIMI
which simply means I am....

but taken to its full meaning in Greek, it means I AM, I WAS, I WILL BE...
IOW I always was...I exist.

And this clearly referred back to the burning bush when God Yahweh declared I AM.

Thomas, an Apostle, called Him My God.
Peter called Him the Son of God.
The Apostles taught those that came after them that Jesus was divine...that He was God.
I've posted many statements from some that the Apostles taught personally...

If we can't believe them,
who can we believe?

If you combine everything - scripture in general, Jesus' statements, and what the Apostles taught,
we have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.

I see no way out of this.
Thanks for your time, I appreciate your feedback and will keep your words in mind. joy: pheart
 
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GodsGrace

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No Aposle in any bible ever taught that you have to believe the Trinity doctrine, or "believe in the Trinity".

All the apostles were dead by 99 AD...and the Trinity doctrine was created about 300 yrs later.
I've written so much to you about this...
and your ignorance TO THIS DAY is overwhelming.

The Apostles were dead by 99AD
Nice.

So they spoke to no one?
They lived their life and taught NO ONE about Jesus?

THE APOSTLES AND THOSE THEY TAUGHT BELIEVED JESUS TO BE DIVINE.

Do you know how to read or not???

The Trinity is throughout the entire bible...both the OT and the NT.

It's YOUR problem is you THINK the doctrine came about 300 years later.

READ what the early theologians taught....
learn some church history and stop makind silly comments.
Now, the Theololgy that God became a man, is true.
But what isn't true is that you have to believe this, to be a Christian.
And tell us all Behold...
What DO you have to believe to be Christian?
JWs call themselves Christian.
Are they Christian?
Consider that a Christian, who became one today........was a lifetime sinner., and has now become born again.
When did they believe in the Trinity?
They haven't so far, as they are only saved 15 seconds ago......so, are they a Christian?
Yes they are, and they have not "believed the Trinity doctrine".
If you buy a computer....
you now have a computer.
You indeed own that computer.

Don't you think it's a good idea to learn how TO USE that computer?
Or is just owning one sufficient?
Do I use an operating program that is already in existance,,,
or do I have to make up my own operating program?

A born again person is considered Christian.
Until they start making up their own religion...

They are to be taught the CHRISTIAN religion.

And I use the word RELIGION with a purpose.

We are Christian
not Jewish
not Muslim
 

GodsGrace

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This video talks about what some early church fathers had to say.

Carm.org
And a Calvinist teacher?

Are you serious?

I don't listen to this nonsense by Matt Slick.
And your teacher there uses search engines?
How about using the church for your information?
Do you have a church?
Is it orthodox? Does it teach mainline Christianity?
If it does NOT teach the trinity,,,it is NOT a mainline church.


However, I will say that the word TRINITY was not used until late 2nd century or early 3rd century.
This does NOT mean that the IDEA did not exist...it just did not have a name.

The word ABORTION was not used until about 500 years ago.
So does that mean that no woman ever had an abortion before 1500AD?

Keep studying walter.
And try to use accredited teachers...
Matt Slick is not one of them, nor is that guy on YouTube.

If you want some names, I'd be happy to supply them.
 

WalterandDebbie

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As I'm sitting in church my mind is rolling like my usual analytical mentally ill self haha. ivte made a couple posts before on how my mindset is a struggle with being a Christian, analytical, constant questioning etc ...so since definitely for myself and for many others since it's so hard to have certainity, at what point do you actually become a Christian?

Growing up I thought feelings mattered(the big saving moment) I had one, I had always considered myself a Christian, I had someone pray over me during a Christian festival around 30 years ago and I definitely thought I noticed and felt a difference and it lasted with me for a while. 5 or 10 years ago I would of considered that my true beginning, but now since we have all these professionals (sarcasm) we realize feelings don't matter!..supposedly to many sides of Christianity....

It's been a tough journey on my end due to my own mental issues however since certainity is only attained by a miracle for me, what exactly is a Christian and at what point does it start? Is it once we start following Christ instructions and lifestyle as best as possible with hope in Him, some say the baptism is mandatory....with of course His grace.
Hello Ernie, Great Title. When exactly do you become a Christian? To Me Now, Like Asking Him, after He Knows I Have Truly Repented, To start all over, (Invitation To Come Unto Jesus) Matthew 11:25-30 KJV. Thank you. John 3:5 KJV

Love, Walter
 
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Aunty Jane

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Jesus surrendered His human will.
In order to become our redeemer, Jesus had to be 100% mortal human. If he was an immortal, he could not have paid for our sins....immortals cannot die.
His divine will was exactly the same as the Father's will.
And yet there was a clash of wills....on the night of his arrest, Jesus asked that the “cup” he was about to drink, to be “removed” from him.....was this a last minute act of cowardice? NO! It was the thought of dying as a blasphemer.....Jesus did not want his sacrifice to be diminished by any thought that he would offend his God in any way....yet he surrendered to the will of his Father.......he did nothing but promote his Father’s worship, telling people that what he taught was not his, but was from his Father. (John 7:15-18)
There was a reason why infants were baptized in the early church
Since baptism requires full immersion, I do not believe that infants were baptized in the first century. It would have been physically dangerous to immerse an infant in water. There was no necessity to baptize babies because it was not the act of baptism that saved anyone...it was what baptism symbolised that mattered....what was going on in their heart....God is a reader of hearts. There is no proxy arrangement.
You have to be of the age of accountability to submit yourself to what baptism signifies....in full knowledge and acceptance of what it means.

Paul also states that even one believing parent can make a child “holy” in God’s eyes if they are instructing their little ones about their loving Creator. (1 Cor 7:13-14)
You're speaking outside of orthodox Christianity and I will not reply to this.
The Holy Spirit is received at baptism. Even in infant baptism.
I confidently disagree, and would love to pursue this topic but am unfortunately restricted.

What is “orthodox” is not necessarily what is truth, if it was corrupted a very long time ago. If what was “orthodox” (taught by Jesus and his apostles) in the first century was corrupted in the early centuries as prophesy states that it would, what makes you think that only later divergence from essentially Catholic doctrine which was adopted by Protestantism, is “unorthodox”?

As I said before....in the early centuries, medicine that used to be viewed as “orthodox” but later accused of being “unscientific quackery”, gave way to a new practice of medicine...gradually taking over from the natural remedies, so that what is now “orthodox medicine” (and has been for the last 100 years or so) is failing in its promise of better health. All treatments come with a screed of side effects that are harmful, making a mockery of medicine’s basic tenet...”do no harm”. Side effects are harm.
Medicine today is about expensive, life long treatments...never cures.

We are more unhealthy today with less excuse, than we have ever been, and more and more people are now returning to the old ways of treating disease and ill health....with remarkable success....mainly because God has his own pharmacy in nature....something ancient people knew....but men, greedy for profit took away. Today you cannot have access to the ancient remedies which were used for centuries with less harm than what is prescribed today. Doctors are forbidden to even mention them or they lose their licence.

I don't know what you mean by the second baptism being about God's choice as to where to serve Him.
There are two baptisms, and two destinies.....their purpose outlined in the Scriptures for each.

One group are “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits” (Rev 14:15) to be adopted as “sons of God”, who alone are taken to heaven after they are resurrected “first”, in order to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. These are given the role of “kings and priests” in order to bring redeemed mankind back to God in full reconciliation. (Rev 20:6)
How important was this reconciliation?

Col 1:15-23.....NASB...
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven”.

Most “Christians” would have a hard time interpreting that passage of Scripture with their indoctrinated beliefs about who the true God really is...yet it is a salvation issue. (John 17:3)

The second (general) resurrection is for those who are not chosen for a role in heaven...these are the subjects of the Kingdom who are given an earthly resurrection, just as the Jews were taught to expect. (John 5:28-29)
They always anticipated that Messiah’s Kingdom would rule mankind....they just were missing a few details that were revealed to Christ’s disciples after Pentecost....when they received the Holy Spirit, which did not come at their baptism. They were given an invitation to heaven that only they received...a “token in advance” of their resurrection, which was not to take place until Christ’s return. (Eph 1:13-14; 1 Thess 4:13-17)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Those that enter heaven are those that believed in God and lived their life as best they good obeying Him.
We are born from above when we decide to follow God and the spirit never dies.
Yes, it requires that a person live in accord with all that Jesus taught....faithful to death.
God’s spirit definitely plays a part in us coming to Christ as a disciple......as Jesus said...

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day”. . . . . “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” (John 6:44, 65 NASB)

But God is also the one who chooses his “kings and priests”.....these need subjects, and sinners for whom to perform their duties.

The resurrection takes place when our soul and spirit is rejoined with our body at the end of time.
Can you provide Scripture for that?
Do some state that this is a training ground?
Yes, it is somehow the assumption that God abandoned his first purpose for humanity and decided to use the earth as a training ground for heaven. Nowhere is it said that God abandoned his purpose in creating us here on this amazing planet in paradise conditions. (Isa 55:11) Yet most “Christians” automatically assume that when they die they will either go to heaven or hell.....I wonder where they got that idea? Certainly not from Jesus or his apostles.
The Christian religion relies on what Jesus taught.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and we are to follow HIS teachings.
Absolutely....but what has been taught in the rabble that is Christendom, is so far removed from what Jesus taught that it beggars belief. If you go back to the beginning and remove all the dross that has been added over the centuries, reading the Bible and allowing it to interpret itself gives a very different picture. Why would we think otherwise if Jesus told us that “few” will be found on the cramped and difficult road to life, whereas the “many” will hurtle down a very different easier road, but it’s not leading to where they think it will. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) It’s time to wake up and see which road we are travelling. (John 15:18-21)
He removed those to whom He revealed Himself from pagan teachings.... from the religions that were worshipping a multitude of gods.
He has told us to remove ourselves from the false worship with which Satan has saturated the world. (Rev 18:4-5) He is its god and ruler....with the ability to “blind” people to the truth. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Religious confusion and hatred is what divides mankind like no other....politics runs a close second....and this is why we are told to be “no part of the world” that Satan rules. (John 18:36; 1 John 5:19)
It all comes down to what one believes false worship is.
Exactly!....and we have a deceiver in the world who can make lies appear to be truth, and truth appear to be lies.....how certain are we that what we hold as Bible truth, actually is? How many truths are there?
ANY denomination that has sprung up very recently will never be following the worship that Jesus taught,,,that was foretold in the OT,,,and that the Apostles taught.

That will include, the LDS, the JWs, Scientology, SDA, I'd add to this the religion of Islam.
And yet....it was in this “time of the end” when Jesus was due to return, that he would appoint a “faithful and wise servant” who was told to feed the Master’s entire household, their “food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) If we are not found feeding at his table, there is only one other source of spiritual food, but it is demonic and spiritually poisonous. (1 Cor 10:21) Be careful who you point fingers at. The people were taught to hate Jesus enough to want him dead! They were pretty confident too. (Matt 27:25)
This is not to say that those in these denominations cannot be saved,,,,
but I AM saying that what they teach is NOT orthodox. It is NOT mainline Christianity,,,it is NOT what the Apostles taught and it's the APOSTLES that were with Jesus and knew what HE taught.

Any teaching outside of this is not orthodox Christianity.
Be careful of “orthodoxy”.....it is an old term and it is used by the devil to gradually distort the truth......and history reveals his success.

“The frog in the pot” was a great experiment.....demonstrating that if the heat was added gradually, the frog would sit there happily until he was cooked.....Christendom is the pot.
 

Matthias

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“The early church looked like the early church” - Gavin Ortlund

Not Protestant. Not Roman Catholic. Not Eastern Orthodox.

Jewish.
 
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Matthias

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“The Eastern Orthodox Church (Russian, Greek, Serbian, etc.) considered itself the One True Church. The Catholic Church to the west was a heresy, and Protestants were a heresy of a heresy. … From the Orthodox perspective, spirituality was the essential difference between themselves and Catholics. They believed that the East retained a deepness of connection to God that was lost in the West.”

(Paul Gabel, And God Created Lenin: Marxism vs. Religion in Russia, in 1917-1929, p. 35)

“When exactly do you become a Christian?”

How about: When you become deeply connected to God?
 
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Aunty Jane

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“The Eastern Orthodox Church (Russian, Greek, Serbian, etc.) considered itself the One True Church. The Catholic Church to the west was a heresy, and Protestants were a heresy of a heresy. … From the Orthodox perspective, spirituality was the essential difference between themselves and Catholics. They believed that the East retained a deepness of connection to God that was lost in the West.”

(Paul Gabel, And God Created Lenin: Marxism vs. Religion in Russia, in 1917-1929, p. 35)

When exactly do you become a Christian?

How about: When you become deeply connected to God?
How does one become “deeply connected to God” in a world full of counterfeits? The devil has sown a bumper crop of “weeds” in the world over which he was given rulership. (Luke 4:5-6) How do we tell the “wheat” from the “weeds”?

God wants only a certain type of people to become both rulers and citizens in his kingdom.....a kingdom that spans two realms....heaven and earth.
The fact is that God is “drawing” those ones every day, to be granted his invitation. (John 6:44; 65)
What is the one thing that God has asked of his children from the beginning?....their obedience.

Only with God’s permission will obedient ones be protected from the “strong delusion” that has swallowed up the rest of the world, which fights the truth, tooth and nail. It’s the same delusion that led the Jews to kill Jesus and to persecute his disciples. It is very evident on these boards as we see those who revel in the idea that God has a place of eternal fiery torture for the wicked....how does that serve God’s perfect justice? It makes a mockery of it.

If we go back to Daniel’s Day and his three companions who were sentenced to burn in a fiery furnace for failing to bow to the king’s image, (which their own God forbade) what happened to the ones who threw them into the fire? They themselves were burned alive.....not tortured...just an immediate consequence of getting too close to an intense fire. (Daniel 3:19-27)

What impact would that have had on the onlookers...? Seeing the guards instantly incinerated, but the three Hebrews alive and walking about in the flames, accompanied by an angel.....walking about in the flames meant their salvation....for the “hell and brimstone” preachers it’s supposed to be justice for the wicked.

When the Jews fell to worshipping the false god Molech, they were sacrificing their children in the fire to this false god.....what did Jehovah say about that?

Jer 7:30-31...ESV...
“For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.”

God never commanded such a thing nor did it ever enter his mind to do so.